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    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ

Dirty Acid FAQ & Discussion

Do you believe qualitative differences between LSD products can matter / be felt?

  • Yes: the difference between dirty and clean LSD can be felt

    Votes: 8 32.0%
  • No: there is only LSD

    Votes: 17 68.0%

  • Total voters
    25
It happens. Pure alprazolam can be kinda dangerous to have, especially if you're all faded out and continue dosing..etc. Liquid is a safe way to distribute it, but laying it on blotter you get the dose regulation safety along with street safety. I had friends to get already laid blotter with alprazolam, and they attempted this themselves. They were doing it for fun, not to sell, so it was more practical to just keep it simple in a solution. I don't know what solution it would require though, much less the absorbency, and seeing how it was almost ten years ago, I wouldn't be able to specify the dimensions of each "hit." Fentanyl is already rather potent, and I'm just assuming it's water soluble from the opiates I am familiar with being extremely so.

Not even to the first page, and I'm already trying to keep this train from going off the rails:)

Hah yeah, tangents galore!

The fentanyl idea should work since those lollipops are using a combination of sublingual and buccal administration, and possibly oral too since some would end up getting swallowed with saliva.

---

Anyway, it seems like the consensus is that this is a good idea, or at least that it can possibly be a good thing if it's done right. Am I reading things incorrectly in that regard?

Depending on how the overall opinion looks tomorrow I'll get in touch with one of the mods. I did already use the 'report post' function to suggest to the forum staff that a mod curate the FAQ, but even if I am doing the FAQ myself using input from the folks here in PD I would still need mod support because the thing is pointless if it isn't in some way officially endorsed and also added to the PD Index. A FAQ thread that nobody reads cause it's fifty pages deep in the forum listing (speaking chronologically) is totally useless and would be a gigantic waste of my time and the time of the Bluelighters that give input.
 
Alprazolam blotter?!? *head explodes, showering the entire forum with slimy brain bits*

But to speak seriously though, when did this happen, and how did we find out about and confirm it as having really happened? Do understand I'm not calling you a liar or telling you your talking bullshit, I just never heard of anything like this and it very much piqued my interest!

I am actually surprised to see itsALLfake say he saw this ten years ago, that is more impressive than seeing it today, pure alprazolam powder is now very easy to get just like everything else... However if it were ten years ago this most likely means itsALLfakes friends actually got it from big pharma which is pretty cool.

This is discussed a lot on blue light and I have personally seen it sold on the street, its not Uncommon and definitely a chart topper when you get pure powder :) it is simple to lay any .5-1mg dose on watercolor #14.

Obviously Fentanyl Can be laid on paper as far as I know a common dose is 25-100µg which is similar to LSD where a common dose is around 80-120µg.


I dunno dude, while I disagree with people who believe in dirty acid, and I find their arguments in favor of that position to be often incredibly weak due to a seeming reluctance to even attempt to use deductive reasoning to postulate a mechanism by which acid could be dirty or clean, I do believe that they are for the most part still intelligent, well-informed Bluelighters, who could tell if they were sold an NBOMe or DOX compound as LSD. And so I think that they are simply confusing the widely variable effects on the body and mind both that acid is notorious for – and/or confusing acid's propensity for promoting psychosomatic symptoms – with the idea that the acid itself is somehow dirty or impure. If they, or anybody who has any experience with acid, gets sold something else on blotter and they take it, I'm pretty positive that there is no way that they could confuse it with LSD that's simply contaminated, impure, and thus 'dirty'.

It's such a simple answer, with a handful lets say 20 active LSD chemist's in the world ( these are the most intelligent clandestine chemist's in the world, no argument please :) ) and they each have say $25,000usd-$200,000 in equipment and supplies and there product sells for $15,000usd per gram making it the most expensive drug in the world.... Do you really think someone with this power would pump out dirty crystal?!?

NO. I firmly believe 20-30 years ago, there were alot more up and coming chemist's who would spin batches incorrectly or not as professionally as the next guy and they would release there crystal being very impure, this would have made room for a 'dirty acid' category. Now a days its darn near impossible.

ALD-52 and LSZ have pretty much never been on the market at all

That's pretty brave to state, unless you somehow know in fact orange sunshine was not ALD-52? Nicolas Sands admitted in court he was synthesizing ALD-52 for the Brotherhood of eternal love. If you think thats impossible here is what doctor war has to say ( bluelight crew ):

"ALD-52, AFAIK is hydrolysed to LSD, yes, and is considered a pro-drug, but is stable enough to be distributed, and to still be ALD-52 when it reached the end user - And it was this argument, that Scully & Sands were pleading in court to avoid prosecution after the bust of their Sonoma County operation - That they were producing ALD-52 and not LSD-25, thereby they were not breaking any laws as at that point ALD-52 was not a scheduled compound.

As it transpired, though, even though their final product was ostensibly ALD-52, LSD was produced during the synthesis and then covnerted to ALD, so they were still breaking the law :3"


----

What I would ask is this - How many bluelighters have ever encounterd actual dirty LSD-25 in the last 5 years ( relevance factor for a FAQ thread ) ??

----


It happens. Pure alprazolam can be kinda dangerous to have, especially if you're all faded out and continue dosing..etc. Liquid is a safe way to distribute it, but laying it on blotter you get the dose regulation safety along with street safety. I had friends to get already laid blotter with alprazolam, and they attempted this themselves. They were doing it for fun, not to sell, so it was more practical to just keep it simple in a solution. I don't know what solution it would require though, much less the absorbency, and seeing how it was almost ten years ago, I wouldn't be able to specify the dimensions of each "hit." Fentanyl is already rather potent, and I'm just assuming it's water soluble from the opiates I am familiar with being extremely so.

Not even to the first page, and I'm already trying to keep this train from going off the rails:)

Exactly super dangerous to have last time I had it I was insufflating 3-4mg's at a time, the dude who sold it to me literally just about followed me out of his house trying to explain to me how careful I have to be ;)

I am very surprised your friends got ahold of that 10 years ago, that was almost guaranteed smuggled out of big pharma. Now adays I could have this at my door step within 3 days ;)

Right now actual 'dirty' acid is 1% of the problem and Substances being passed off as acid is the other 99% of the problem which is already actively being taken care of here on bluelight.
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Wait what percent of the problems are just from LSD? What percent of the problem is kids who took LSD and thought it was something else because they don't know any better and didn't test? All the problems with a trip are just RC's now? LSD doesn't cause any problems and if you had any it must be an RC? I never really noticed until a mod here pointed it out, LSD has an almost mythical status among young people where its all great and nothing can go wrong. People have a bad time and of course it must be something else that did it because acid is perfect. Sorry 99 percent of the problems with acid are not RC related, I disagree.

You claim to be from planet Microdot, and you are still saying this, maybe its time for someone to go back to psychedelic history and safety profile class...
I get sooo sick of this response....
I will not waste my time.

EDIT:


Hah yeah, tangents galore!

The fentanyl idea should work since those lollipops are using a combination of sublingual and buccal administration, and possibly oral too since some would end up getting swallowed with saliva.

---

Anyway, it seems like the consensus is that this is a good idea, or at least that it can possibly be a good thing if it's done right. Am I reading things incorrectly in that regard?

If you are trying to make a FAQ thread about LSD I would recommend you stay on topic I was just using the alprazolam thing as an example relating to kidklmx's question about LSA on blotter.

I am not trying to be rude. I firmly believe there is rarely an occurrence of impure LSD-25 on the street. Weak, yes very common, but to actually have one of these clandestine chemist's not properly purifying there product is simply ludicrous to believe.

OP I believe your intentions are good.
 
The one time I had really amazing LSD, it caused me permanent side effects. Therefore, I suspect that it was improperly manufactured or cut to crap in some way or another, as I usually react well to good quality drugs. I suspect it was a bad batch of LSD because acid is a black market drug made in stingy labs by criminals, who probably don't make the same exact thing every time. In any case, it was allegedly the best version of LSD available in the area, and all the acid heads would rave about it. I heard from one person that it made him retarded, but he did it 50 times. Also, I believe it is possible that blotter paper can and is layed with mixtures of chemicals sometimes that arn't just LSD, maybe 90% acid and 10%, n-brome, say, so that you wouldn't really notice but they'd make more cash. However, the effects that the acid had on me that night completely changed my life.

I was expecting LSD to help me become enlightened, and it definitely did that, but in a completely different way than I expected. It put me off of all drugs forever except for cannabis a great love of mine. My trip itself was relatively smooth sailing, but after I started coming down about 10 hours later, I realized that my body had an extreme and dangerous level of muscular tension and vasoconstriction. I had taken a fair dose of acid I'd say; the trip itself was rediculously intense and fun. Then came the worst comedown I have ever experienced. What resulted was permanent spinal nerve damage; ever since that night I have lived with a form of chronic back pain that is excruciatingly painful at times. My spinal cord feels like it has been scarred by the acid, and I regret ever taking it. I wish I could go back to the way my body was before I took this dirty beast of a drug, but at the end of the day, this is what it took to get me to stop taking drugs. If you put shit from underground labs in your brain, then you are putting a lot of trust in criminal humans. I did that and I paid the price for my ignorance, but if one thing is certain it is this: I only smoke weed now, and that is all I will ever do.

I don't really care if it was dirty or clean. To hell with all of it! The 4 people I took it with all had a great time with no issues, but they were beginners, and this wasn't my first time. I doubt it would mess with you from only doing it once. I've always been different; my reaction to LSD in this case was also pretty unique. So if you ask me, I'd say strong blotter is potentially very harmful and dangerous to some people. If it's doing shit like this to even just a handful of members of our society - and I assure you it is - it has been since the 60's - then the highs of however many people trying acid isn't worth the suffering of those few who get the bad reactions and permanent side effects. LSD ruins peoples lives sometimes from minimal usage, that's for sure. And it means that LSD sure as hell is not safe to try, I would say it is the complete opposite of that.
 
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ALD-52 and LSZ have pretty much never been on the market at all, even in those certain circles within the online RC scene. There was a rumor that LSZ may make an appearance after AL-LAD, but that's just hypothetical conjecture for the moment I believe. And as I mentioned the NBOMes are different enough from acid that I don't think the two could be confused by anybody who has tried either an NBOMe, or acid, or both.

ummm sample LSZ just fell through my door! Big fucking grin =D

Very interested in this dirty acid shit. I was discussing LSD with a mate last night who agreed with me that it's not so much that there's dirty acid around, but more that acid is simply a dirty drug... If you have a nice clean head when you trip, the pleasant effects outweigh the negatives ones & kinda wash over them. You might be aware of tension or some sorta bodyload, but the trip is such a laugh that they don't really bother you & in some cases you might barely notice them. Then you might have a less pleasant trip, perhaps your head ain't straight or you got day-to-day worry's, suddenly the trip isn't so dsitracting that you can ignore the physical side-effects.

My period of LSD interest & experimentation occured during my 20's, in the 1990's. I don't recall any trips from that time that I could say were perfect, every single trip had difficult aspects & in some cases these recurred through-out the trip. I can't say with any certainty that I've ever had a perfectly clean, start-to-finish good trip, there has always been an element of physical & or mental difficulty at some point. My final trip in 1996, engaged in after I officially gave up LSD in 1995 because I was hanging out with a buncha famous Psy trance artists & DJ's a summer BBQ up in North London, was the closest I'd had up to that point, to a perfect trip & because I'd chosen to leave acid I was really pleased to get such a good trip for my final dose. Ecstacy became my drug of choice from that point & psychedelics that weren't fungal edged off my radar.

Despite having lost interest in psychedelics, I returned to them after meeting a girl who was deeply interested in LSD & psychedelics generally. I'd lost all my old contacts & I've become very wary of street deals in recent years, so BL became a renewed resource as I began to research LSD-like drugs in the Phenethylamine & Tryptamines so she could have spin on a psyche without me having to buy street acid. Since then we've been through dozens of different psychedelics & I personally have found very few of them to have the same kind of side-effects or intensity of side-effects that I remember from LSD. I've swam through a few sessions on Al-Lad recently too, & this consitutes the only ergoloid that I have taken since I took acid for the last time in 1996 I was half expecting the same issues. Even Al with it's obvious molecular relationship appeared much less heavy & intense than LSD.

So, I've concluded that LSD itself is simply a bit of a dirty drug & that the enjoyment of the experience coupled with varying dosage are almost entirely to blame for the differing intensity of it's effects & side-effects. That does not make me right, it's just my opinion. & I do have to wonder if perhaps varying quality of synthesis might produce varying quality LSD or perhaps bring powerful contaminants that are little understood as yet. I'm not denying either possibility...
 
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Very interested in this dirty acid shit. I was discussing LSD with a mate last night who agreed with me that it's not so much that there's dirty acid around, but more that acid is simply a dirty drug...

I agree with a lot of what you say besides this quote above. You touched on one correct point and that is LSD effects everybody differently.

The one time I had really amazing LSD, it caused me permanent side effects. Therefore, I suspect that it was improperly manufactured or cut to crap in some way or another, as I usually react well to good quality drugs. I suspect it was a bad batch of LSD because acid is a black market drug made in stingy labs by criminals, who probably don't make the same exact thing every time. In any case, it was allegedly the best version of LSD available in the area, and all the acid heads would rave about it. I heard from one person that it made him retarded, but he did it 50 times. Also, I believe it is possible that blotter paper can and is layed with mixtures of chemicals sometimes that arn't just LSD, maybe 90% acid and 10%, n-brome, say, so that you wouldn't really notice but they'd make more cash. However, the effects that the acid had on me that night completely changed my life.

It is sad that happened to you, however you are far off base with your knowledge, and that could have caused your bad trip.

This is exactly why we do NOT need a dirty acid FAQ
maybe 90% acid and 10%, n-brome
 
Not that I don't respect the opinions of others, but those that argue for dirty LSD often base that on experience rather than cold hard facts. How can you discriminate between what is actually real and what is not in those chases? Kind of hard to discredit (or prove) what an anonymous poster on the internet has done

But if LSD has taught us anything isn't it that nothing is 'actually real' and there is only experience? ;)
 
Definitely, but you'll need some anchor point in physical reality (data) to make sense of it all. Or at least, try to. Just saying that data is easier to validate than experience, which is kind of key in something like an FAQ
 
That's pretty brave to state, unless you somehow know in fact orange sunshine was not ALD-52? Nicolas Sands admitted in court he was synthesizing ALD-52 for the Brotherhood of eternal love. If you think thats impossible here is what doctor war has to say ( bluelight crew ):

"ALD-52, AFAIK is hydrolysed to LSD, yes, and is considered a pro-drug, but is stable enough to be distributed, and to still be ALD-52 when it reached the end user - And it was this argument, that Scully & Sands were pleading in court to avoid prosecution after the bust of their Sonoma County operation - That they were producing ALD-52 and not LSD-25, thereby they were not breaking any laws as at that point ALD-52 was not a scheduled compound.

As it transpired, though, even though their final product was ostensibly ALD-52, LSD was produced during the synthesis and then covnerted to ALD, so they were still breaking the law :3"

As far as I know we don't have any evidence one way of another. I'm positive that there have likely been instances where an underground acid synthesist has done up a batch of one exotic ergoloid or another for his or her friends. That's what I would do in their position. But if we're talking about the open, mass market in the context of 'dirty acid', I would stand by my statement that exotic LSD analogues haven't been distributed with any reasonable scale, with the exception of the recent synth of AL-LAD and apparently now LSZ as well. But even these recent developments have been confined to a relatively small group of people, instead of being dumped in quantity on the ordinary black market. Whether or not somebody distributed something like ALD-52 is debatable, but we don't have any evidence to support either position. And it's worth noting that the one supposed incidence of ALD-52 being distributed, according to the chemists who would actually have had first-hand knowledge of this because they would have been the ones doing the synth, was stated in a court of law as an argument against being incarcerated. Sure, if that was a lie then it was perjury, but considering the nastiness they were facing upon conviction, it's a reasonable argument that they simply said this to try and wriggle out from under the charges.

What I would ask is this - How many bluelighters have ever encounterd actual dirty LSD-25 in the last 5 years ( relevance factor for a FAQ thread ) ??

I would say none, not a single person, because I say dirty acid doesn't exist. But that's the purpose of a FAQ on the subject: to present the rational arguments for and against the existence of dirty acid. If it happens as I expect that there won't be much in the way of rational, deductive arguments in favor of dirty acid being real, then so be it.

If you are trying to make a FAQ thread about LSD I would recommend you stay on topic I was just using the alprazolam thing as an example relating to kidklmx's question about LSA on blotter.

I am not trying to be rude. I firmly believe there is rarely an occurrence of impure LSD-25 on the street. Weak, yes very common, but to actually have one of these clandestine chemist's not properly purifying there product is simply ludicrous to believe.

OP I believe your intentions are good.

Yeah I don't take that as rude. There's always a give and take between going off on tangents or adhering the the original topic, and I think the alprazolam thing was a small enough, self-contained tangent to go ahead and seek more information on, since it's something I've certainly never heard of before. But our criteria for what constitutes 'too far off topic' is different for every person, and I think your point – trying to keep the thread on the rails – is definitely sound and reasonable.

The one time I had really amazing LSD, it caused me permanent side effects. Therefore, I suspect that it was improperly manufactured or cut to crap in some way or another, as I usually react well to good quality drugs. I suspect it was a bad batch of LSD because acid is a black market drug made in stingy labs by criminals, who probably don't make the same exact thing every time. In any case, it was allegedly the best version of LSD available in the area, and all the acid heads would rave about it. I heard from one person that it made him retarded, but he did it 50 times. Also, I believe it is possible that blotter paper can and is layed with mixtures of chemicals sometimes that arn't just LSD, maybe 90% acid and 10%, n-brome, say, so that you wouldn't really notice but they'd make more cash. However, the effects that the acid had on me that night completely changed my life.

And this is an example of the misinformation that I would seek to correct with such a document. First, synthesizing LSD is way, way beyond the average meth cook type black market kitchen chemist. It's not the kind of thing that you can just whip up in your bathtub using mason jars and cleaning supplies. So the people that are synthesizing acid must by definition know very well what they're doing and how to do it.

Second, you can't somehow mess up the synthesis a little bit, so that you end up with something that isn't 'the same exact thing every time'. Either it produces acid or it doesn't, there's no in between state where you end up with 'almost but not quite acid that's still active but feels icky'. And third the NBOMe contaminant idea is just completely on its face absurd. If a blotter has 100 micrograms of drugs, and 90% is acid, then you'll have an active dose of LSD, but if 10% is an NBOMe you'll have 10 micrograms of the stuff. That's like 1.75 orders of magnitude to little to produce any effects at all, since 10^2.75 is approximately 562 micrograms.

...trust in criminal humans...

Yeah, cause breaking a law based on outmoded conservative morality instead of hard data surely does make you a criminal, and criminals are obviously a separate breed, nothing like normal human beings. Totally, dude.

The 4 people I took it with all had a great time with no issues, but they were beginners, and this wasn't my first time. I doubt it would mess with you from only doing it once. I've always been different; my reaction to LSD in this case was also pretty unique.

So four out of five people had no issues, and on the basis of that one idiosyncratic reaction it's the logical thing to conclude that the acid was at fault? And even more of a deductive failure that the acid was somehow improperly synthesized as per the first paragraph of your post yet the negative effects of the mythical 'almost but not quite acid that feels icky' only struck you for some reason while leaving four other people alone?

So if you ask me, I'd say strong blotter is potentially very harmful and dangerous to some people. If it's doing shit like this to even just a handful of members of our society - and I assure you it is - it has been since the 60's - then the highs of however many people trying acid isn't worth the suffering of those few who get the bad reactions and permanent side effects. LSD ruins peoples lives sometimes from minimal usage, that's for sure. And it means that LSD sure as hell is not safe to try, I would say it is the complete opposite of that.

So since you would assure me that acid does in fact do this to lots of people, you'd be happy to provide something to back that argument up, right? LSD doesn't ruin lives from minimal usage, it does however – like all psychedelics do – occasionally bring latent psychological issues like schizophrenia to the surface. So on the basis of a certain subset of the population – who have incorrectly functioning brain biochemistries – we can conclude that it is a scourge upon mankind and should toss all of the positive experiences it has brought about out the window? The logic, it is not there.
 
^^^ I must admit I did not properly read your initial statement, which states for or against the term 'dirty acid'.

I am obviously against lol
 
Yeah, this discussion is going to end up being all, "this one time..." and "it's probably ____," kind of thing. I think if actual theoretical thought with an effort to maintain a scientific process, it could be good, but it's going to be real spotty with that. Since you started this thread, I think your attention drifted away from the "shed a layer of skin..."bleh thread, Dein.. Are you in the belief that L isomers that would be found in production non-active in terms of psychoactive or active period?
 
^^^ I must admit I did not properly read your initial statement, which states for or against the term 'dirty acid'.

I am obviously against lol

Aah, no worries, I've certainly lost count of how many threads I've misread. The worst I think was when Sepher posted the first (I believe) trip report about AL-LAD. I typed up this characteristically excessively long post about ALD-52, and how cool of a chemical it is structurally speaking, and yeah, needless to say the thread was not in fact about ALD-52! Oops!

Again on a tangent a bit here, ALD-52 is really dope because there's an interesting structure activity relationship going on. Acid has a hydrogen at the 1-position, which is the nitrogen that is part of the indole moiety. ALD-52 has an acetyl group at that 1-position. They are both active compounds. However, there is a compound known as MLD-41 which has a methyl group on that nitrogen instead of the hydrogen in acid or the acetyl in ALD-52.

It turns out that MLD-41 is actually rather unpleasant. It is identical structurally to LSD and ALD-52 with the exception that LSD has the hydrogen and ALD-52 the acetyl at the indolic 1-position where MLD-41 has a methyl. It shows the cardiovascular issues that are much more dangerous and intense in ergotamine, namely vasoconstriction and its associated effects, like dizziness. When MLD-41 is taken, slightly psychedelic effects appear. However it is a known mechanism that tertiary amines like the methyl group at the 1-position nitrogen in MLD-41 may be chopped off to form the secondary amine in vivo. What this means in practical terms is that MLD-41 may actually be completely inactive as a psychedelic, producing cardiovascular unpleasantness but no psychedelic effects, with the reports of feeling slightly trippy after having taken MLD-41 resulting from the methyl getting chopped off and replaced with a hydrogen, transforming into acid. So MLD-41 would be responsible for the shitty somatic stuff, and some portion of the dose of MLD would act as a pro-drug for LSD by losing the methyl in the liver, and that portion of the dose that turned into acid would be responsible for any trippy stuff going on.

So what this has to do with ALD-52 and why ALD-52 is so cool is that ALD-52 is the only other lysergamide derivative besides MLD-41 that is relatively well-known, at least in the literature if not in man, to have a substitution at the indolic 1-position. If you take acid and put a methyl on the indolic nitrogen in place of a hydrogen, you get what is likely a completely centrally-inactive compound, MLD-41. So that would lead one to hypothesize that any steric bulk (sort of the physical size of some molecular functional group, how much space it takes up) beyond that of a hydrogen stemming from the 1-position would kill activity.

This could be because any extra steric bulk at the 1-position would prevent the compound from sitting in a 5-HT receptor in such a way as to be psychedelic. Think of it like a key: if you all of a sudden add a big spiky protrusion to the teeth of a key that otherwise fit perfectly in a lock, it would no longer fit. And so steric bulk at the indolic nitrogen would appear to do something similar, preventing it from binding to the receptor. What a nice little theory, right? A neat, tidy, sensible structure activity relationship.

Except... ALD-52 has something *bigger still* in steric terms than a methyl, and it is perfectly active *and* lacks the unpleasant level of cardiovascular effects present in MLD-41. To be specific, ALD-52 has an acetyl (COCH3) group at that indolic nitrogen instead of the methyl (CH3) located there in MLD-41. Other than these different 1-position substituents, LSD, ALD, and MLD are structurally the same. So steric bulk can't possibly be solely responsible for the inactivity of MLD-41, since something even bigger at the 1-position can be active at almost the same level as acid! So that nice, neat SAR theory I mentioned earlier now has this big, unexplained hole in its reasoning.

I don't know what the *actual* reasoning is as far as structure activity relationships for lysergamide 1-position substituents, steric bulk is just my hypothetical thing to illustrate the weird properties of modifications on that nitrogen. And so ALD-52 is totally cool to me precisely because it seems to be at odds with MLD-41 as far as effects of adding stuff to that location.

Yeah, this discussion is going to end up being all, "this one time..." and "it's probably ____," kind of thing. I think if actual theoretical thought with an effort to maintain a scientific process, it could be good, but it's going to be real spotty with that. Since you started this thread, I think your attention drifted away from the "shed a layer of skin..."bleh thread, Dein.. Are you in the belief that L isomers that would be found in production non-active in terms of psychoactive or active period?

You have a really good point. I don't know how possible it would be separating out the good, accurate info, or even just the sensible conjecture, from the 'he said she said / my buddy's dogwalker's cousin tripped blah blah' kind of stuff.

You're right about the other thread, I'll go take a gander at it in a minute. I'll get to the isomer question in a minute, I want to go try and google down some actual information on the subject first. I know that (+)-LSD is the only known active isomer of LSD, but I don't know how they got that information (yeah, obviously by going and resolving the various isomers and testing each independently, I'm saying I want to try and find some papers on that subject). I'll edit this when I'm done looking about the intertoobs for that sort of stuff.
 
Goddamn Deinonychus..... I've been following this since OP, and this has got to be one of the more interesting threads I've read in terms of what I've learned, chemistry wise.

Kudos man, you really seem to be after the most objective view/thread on this possible.
 
agreed! There's some very interesting information in here!

I'm not stupid but most of the chemistry shit needs to be in laymans English for me & the kinda posts the inhabit this thread are EXACTLY what I read BL for. Kudos ineed! Thanks!
 
Mm. Okay. Well I will try to keep this simple then.

If a drug is contaminated, then the most likely culprit will be a second chemical, piggybacking on the delivery method. In the case of acid this delivery method is assumed to be blotter, since that's often the context in which dirty acid is referred to. So naturally one wishes to know: what other compound, and how much of it?

Taking 100 micrograms as the average dose of LSD on a blotter, we can see that the amount of contaminant would have to be small – incredibly small. And yet paradoxically it must be enough to create negative symptoms in body, mind, or both. So let's say the acid is 80% pure. This would be highly unlikely I suspect, as you don't get around to making acid with any less than truly first-class chemistry skills. But for the sake of argument, 80% impure it is.

That means 80 mics of acid, 20 of 'other stuff'. So our hypothetical contaminant, the dirt in 'dirty acid', would need to exert its action upon the human animal at a dose of *20 micrograms*! That's not even a threshold dose were we speaking about LSD itself, and LSD is one of the most potent psychedelic chemicals known.

But it goes further. And this gets to itsALLfake's question earlier: what we are feeling when we take acid is actually the effect of one of four isomers: (+)-LSD is the only active isomer, (-)-LSD and (+)-iso-LSD and (-)-iso-LSD are all inactive compounds. Now I do not know what the ratios are, it is likely that at least some of the acid that is around is racemic. This means all of the isomers, in equal proportions. Or possibly there may be stereoselective syntheses that can push those ratios towards the active isomer to one extent or another.

If the blotter is loaded with racemate, then it would follow be that there is actually 400 mics of LSD isomers, one quarter of which would be the (+)-LSD. In that case 80% pure would mean that there could be actually 320 mics of racemic LSD, one quarter of which is the active isomer, and 80 mics of contaminant. This is slightly more reasonable as far as finding chemical candidates that are this potent.

I make this point in spite of my ironclad surety that dirty acid is a myth. I think the sum total of the evidence backs up my side of the argument, and I haven't heard anybody on the other side of the debate so much as suggest a mechanism for dirty acid. The racemate-loaded blotter as means for explaining why a contaminant wouldn't have to be THAT potent is meant as proof of looking objectively at the issue. If I'm willing to go farther than anybody on *the other side of the debate* by actually positing such caveats that make their arguments less ridiculously unlikely, then hopefully people wouldn't ascribe me to be unfairly judging evidence, right? Or on the other hand, if I'm not a believer and yet I'm the only one theorizing on their side of the debate, perhaps the evidence and their arguments are simply weak when looked at closely? Mmm, could go either way, but better to try to demonstrate a lack of bias despite my strong opinions on the subject than to just blunder about looking sneaky and bent.

Anyway, getting on with the explanation: there is a second criteria for the contaminant, should it exist. It would need to be produced by a sloppy acid synthesis. This is a major sticking point, every bit as much as the wildly unlikely potency, for several reasons. First, as I states, amateurs don't synthesize acid. Second, the people that CAN synthesize acid will know when things go wrong. Third, even if they didn't, you don't fuck up your synth and get 'almost acid but not really acid that is still active and makes you feel shitty'. You get a bunch of garbage, and your chromatography column will show this garbage to be lacking in acid, and the jig will be up. And fourth, we know lysergamide chemistry, speaking from the standpoint of the sum knowledge of mankind. There are not 'other lysergamides' that come out of botched or low-yield acid syntheses.

So reviewing the conditions, we have something that must be exquisitely potent, more so than acid itself, must produce symptoms in the human animal, must be made as a byproduct of highly unlikely sloppy, low-yield syntheses, and must Be invisible to analysis by blotter-testing concerns. There is not a single compound I know of that is a possible fit for these characteristics. And nobody with a better handle on lysergamide chemistry than me is willing to make suggestions since they consider the matter to be such a nonissue as to be not worth their time (see Ebola?'s response on page one). The people who do believe in dirty acid fail to come up with candidates either, or theorize mechanisms for 'dirtiness' that wouldn't require invoking highly unlikely compounds.

On the other hand, acid is known to be just about the most variable psychedelic drug we have. It is also known to be occasionally hard on the body, in the manner of its less pleasant (read: dangerous / possibly deadly) cousins, such as vasoconstriction. Third acid is incredibly powerful, and has a propensity for what is known as 'psychosomatic effects', where mental problems are sort of transferred to the form of general bodily malaise.

When all this is examined, I think the answer is clear, but many disagree. Decide for yourself, I guess.

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Also: itsALLfake

On isomers: I failed to dig up anything useful to actually, you know, substantiate the lack of activity of the other isomers of LSD. However, I can explain to you in general terms why isomers differ in activity, and then generalize this to acid.

It happens in organic chemistry that you'll have alkanes, saturated carbon chains. Each atom has four substituents, counting its links to the other carbons in the chain. Carbon forms tetrahedral bond patterns when there is no strain, ring strain or whatever, on the bonds. So if you have a carbon chain, and we pick one in the middle, then there are two other atoms connected to it.

If those other two substituents are different, then you get a chiral center. To really explain this right, we need pictures:

Milchsäure_Enantiomerenpaar.svg


First, you need to know what the hashed bond and the black wedge mean. I said carbon would have it's substituents arranged in a tetrahedral arrangement assuming it had no double bonds. So that means that if we look at a carbon like that above, and two bonds are perpendicular to our view – that is, we are seeing the bonds drawn as plain lines from an angle 90 degrees, so that they lie along the two-dimensional surface that is our computer screen – necessarily the other two bonds can not lie in that same plane. If they did this would not be a representation of a 3-dimensional tetrahedron.

So of those two bonds that do not lie within the plane on our computer screen, one points away from the carbon, and away from the viewer, this is the hatched bond. The other must stick out towards the viewer, and that is the black wedge.

If you're having issues understanding this, try this: take a piece of paper. Draw an equilateral triangle on it, with equally sized equilateral triangles attached to each of the three sides. Cut out along the outsides of this whole mess of four triangles. Now, fold up the triangles on the edges so that you have a pyramid. This pyramid should have four equal faces each shaped like an equilateral triangle, and four points, right? Now hold this pyramid so that two of the points are equally far away from you, in a line. Notice where the other two points now are forced to be? One is close to you, one further away. These points represent the atoms connected to the carbon, which would be located in the center of the pyramid.

So assuming you either get it the first time or (no shame in this) prefer to cut out the shapes to make the pyramid and see it for yourself, I'll continue as if this issue of what the wedges and hashes represent is understood.

Notice in the picture above, there are two molecules. There's also a dotted line down the middle, between them. This is an axis of reflection: a mirror. If you look closely, because the substituents on the wedge and hashed bond are not the same, the two molecules above, while structurally containing the same atoms, cannot be made into one another by turning them 180 degrees. Because if you turn it 180 degrees, what was the bond facing away from you is now the bond facing towards you. Whereas both molecules pictured have the same substituents on the far-away side.

The only way you could make these molecules identical is by mirroring one of them, which flips its symmetry. This does not happen in nature. Or under human power for that matter. So like your right and left hand, you have your fingers – analogous to the bonds that create the chiral center – in the same order. But the direction that the order progresses is opposite for each hand, and you cannot make your left hand into a right hand without taking a picture and mirror flipping it. Thus says the man who has all to often put on the wrong glove for a given hand in the winter.

Molecules like those above, structurally composed of the same stuff but in a different order, are known as enantiomers, after the ancient Greek for mirrored parts.

So what does the fact that you can have two enantiomers mean for drug biochemistry in the brain, let alone acid? It turns out that drugs, say, like amphetamines, have chiral centers, also referred to as stereocenters. And it also so happens that it matters to the brain's receptors which enantiomer is present.

The 'molecular docking maneuver' – the process by which a drug molecule binds to a receptor – is a sensitive thing. The molecule of drug is twisting and turning, not just the molecule itself spinning around in all directions and moving about erratically in Brownian motion, but also the bits of the molecule that are not rigid – in this case the aliphatic chain containing the amine that sticks out from the hexagonal aromatic ring in an amphetamine molecule – spinning around. Each of the single bonds in a molecule that isn't held in place by aromaticity will rotate around the axis of the bond, so that each atom in the aliphatic chain is spinning around and bringing its substituents with it.

The bonding between the receptor and the molecule isn't strong. It is based on hydrogen bonding, van der Walls forces, electrostatic give and take, steric bulk, all very weak attractive and repulsive forces. So the drug is spinning around and moving in a random fashion, while also contorting itself as any single bonds not stabilized by aromatic resonance rotates around its bond's axis, and this spinning twisting thing must dock with the receptor through the gentlest of attractive and repulsive forces. Needless to say, there are a lot of 'misfires', where it bangs into the active binding site but is conformationally the wrong shape to bind. And when it does bind, it matters where the substituents are located relative to the receptor.

Since there are two enantiomers of amphetamine, one with a alpha-position where there is a hydrogen 'pointing towards the viewer' and the alpha-methyl is on the side of the carbon opposite the viewer, called the levorotary isomer. This would be depicted with the alpha methyl as a hashed wedge if the aliphatic chain points to the right of the aromatic ring, like this:
L-amphetamine.svg

The other would be the dextrorotsry form, which would have the hydrogen on the alpha carbon pointing away from the viewer and the alpha-methyl moiety pointing towards the viewer, depicted as a thick black wedge, like this:
320px-Dextroamphetamine-2D-skeletal.png

Dextro and levorotary refer to how each of the isomers reacts to circularly polarized light of one direction or another, just for reference purposes, I won't get into that here.

Anyway, if the levorotary isomer binds to the receptor, the location of the alpha-methyl relative to the hydrogen on the alpha carbon results in a different reaction than if the dextrorotary form binds, with the alpha-methyl on the other side relative to the hydrogen. And so you get two different effects depending on which isomer is administered, with the dextrorotary form causing much of the 'pleasant' stimulant effects and the levorotary form being the culprit for much of the nastiness you get from stimulants. And as you might imagine, taking the 50/50 racemic mix results in effects from both isomers, leading to a state with some of the positives but also some of the negatives, but with neither type of effect predominating.

---

So how does this relate to acid? Well, until now we've been talking about amphetamine, a relatively small, uncomplicated drug, where both isomers are active. LSD is a big, complicated, unwieldy molecule, and it has two stereocenters, so thus four isomers to amphetamine's two isomers. And furthermore, one stereocenter affects the positioning of the whole diethylamide chain, and the other affects the positioning of an entire aromatic ring, AND the diethylamide chain attached to that ring.

We've so far examined isomerism from the point of view of an aliphatic chain, but chiral centers are not limited to this type of structure, and when there are ring systems that are not fully aromatic, possessing only a single double bond in the case of the ring that holds the C-5 stereocenter, chirality is a result of there being two substituents on a given carbon in the ring (assuming that carbon has no double bonds. One of those substituents will be 'behind' the ring if the ring is in the plane of the computer screen, and the other 'in font' of the ring. This is the same concept I was explaining earlier and we do use the hashed or fully-blacked out wedges to indicate positions, hashed where the bond points away from the viewer starting from the ring, with a black wedge indicating a bond where the substituents lies closer to the viewer than the plane in which the ring sits. I'm not going to try and explain this more in words, the following picture will hopefully suffice as this post is now long by even my unusual standards and I wish to get on to why the inactive isomers of acid are in fact inactive instead of just shitty, like the levorotary form of amphetamine.

640px-Lysergide_stereoisomers_structural_formulae_v.2.png


Because acid is so big, its fit in the receptor is very delicate, even more so than for amphetamine, because its got that much more shit to flop and spin around, like the diethylamide bits. Further, the two chiral centers are integral to the multi-ringed structure in one case and to the base of the diethylamide chain for the other, and the effects of the placement of the chiral centers in these locations are thus more severe than the relatively small change in the location of two terminal substituents (substituents that lack substituents themselves, a methyl and a hydrogen) on the amphetamine's aliphatic chain.

So since the molecule is so big and it's conformational situation has to be just so, and these changes alter the position of much more of the molecule than the simple switch of a hydrogen and a methyl on an amphetamine molecule, the three isomers that are not (+)-LSD are simply too much the wrong shape to bring the diethylamide portion into the position that it needs to be for binding to take place and thus for activity to be realized. This is what happens as molecules get bigger: the number of complicating factors regarding binding and conformational changes gets bigger in a likely nonlinear fashion. This is not just the result of the potential for chirality to increase or for more chiral centers to exist. That is certainly part of it, but it also has to do with the aforementioned property of single-bonded carbons that are not stabilized by aromatic resonance to twist and turn on their axis, bringing everything attached to them with it. The more complicated a molecule in other words, and the floppier and twistier it can get.

Anyway, I hope this answers your question itsALLfake, let me know if you (or anybody else) want clarification on something or other, I'd be happy to try and explain it better.
 
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Maybe it will help to also list the other possible contaminants in "dirty acid". These would include unreacted precursors and reagents. I'll start the list, please add to it if you know something I don't.

Primary precursors
d-lysergic acid amide (ergine) - activity at around 500μg IM(Hoffman)
Isoergine - activity at 2mg oral (Hoffman)
Ergotamine - activity at 2mg oral (active dose in cafergot tablets)
Lysergic acid - inactive

Intermediate precursors (depending on synthesis route)
Isolysergic acid hydrazide - unknown activity
Lysergic acid anhydride - unknown activity
d-lysergic acid monohydrate - unknown activity


Synthetic reagents
Listing these, i think would break bluelight rules but they are all entirely inactive


It's technically possible that one of the listed intermediate precursors could show activity (either psychological or physical) at the single digit microgram level necessary to affect an LSD trip. However burden of proof, etc, etc....
 
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^^ Yeah, this. The chemicals that we are talking about here are active at low levels relative to a lot of other shite, but at the same time they're still like two orders of magnitude too impotent to be effecting things based on a level of a few tens of micrograms.

Also, it's worth mentioning that I looked up stuff about the isomers. So (+)-LSD and (+)-iso-LSD are going to be found in blotter, the other two wont because the natural precursors don't come in those isomeric forms. So that means if the acid is racemic, you'd have 200 mics, and at the aforementioned 80% purity that means that you'd have 40 mics of contaminant at most, and then 80 mics of (+)-LSD and 80 of the inactive iso stuff.

40 mics is a small, small amount.
 
^^ Yeah, this. The chemicals that we are talking about here are active at low levels relative to a lot of other shite, but at the same time they're still like two orders of magnitude too impotent to be effecting things based on a level of a few tens of micrograms.

Also, it's worth mentioning that I looked up stuff about the isomers. So (+)-LSD and (+)-iso-LSD are going to be found in blotter, the other two wont because the natural precursors don't come in those isomeric forms. So that means if the acid is racemic, you'd have 200 mics, and at the aforementioned 80% purity that means that you'd have 40 mics of contaminant at most, and then 80 mics of (+)-LSD and 80 of the inactive iso stuff.

40 mics is a small, small amount.

Honestly I just see this same argument all the time on bluelight and no one has ever in history had a definitive answer.
My question would be what do people consider "dirty"

Personally I wouldn't consider 40µg of " contaminant " per 200µg LSD-25 going by that example. That is actually super clean super good LSD.

When I hear dirty acid it is always someone referring to a bad trip.
 
Honestly I just see this same argument all the time on bluelight and no one has ever in history had a definitive answer.
My question would be what do people consider "dirty"

Personally I wouldn't consider 40µg of " contaminant " per 200µg LSD-25 going by that example. That is actually super clean super good LSD.

When I hear dirty acid it is always someone referring to a bad trip.

Not sure I'm understanding this one fully. When people talk about 'dirty acid' they're talking about trips where there was a significant negative aspect, especially if that takes the form of bodyload or bodily malaise, as you pointed out. The thing is that acid is perfectly capable of heavy bodyload by itself, without having to invoke some mythical contaminant. And not only does the drug LSD itself produce bodyload on its own, it also is known for making people prone to psychosomatic effects during a trip, where a negative psychological issue / problem is experienced as a negative feeling in the body. So if you've been depressed lately then this could manifest as your body feeling heavy and drained when tripping. This is just a hypothetical example, meant to clarify what 'psychosomatic effects' means.

With all this in mind I would say that following Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is that a the inherent bodyload and 'vegetative effects' (like vasoconstriction) that LSD causes, combined with its propensity to produce psychosomatic effects, can adequately explain the negative aspects of people's trips without the need to invoke the existence of a chemical contaminant that must also fit the highly unlikely and restrictive criteria of producing negative effects from a dose in the low tens of micrograms (ie more potent than acid itself) while also being a byproduct of a poorly performed synthesis. If you want to try and blame the negative physiological effects sometimes experienced on acid on a contaminant, making the acid 'dirty', you have to take all these very likely, well known effects (bodyload plus psychosomatic response) and deny their relevance, and then furthermore claim the existence of a contaminant that possesses the very unlikely traits I just described.

In other words there are very plausible, simple explanations for body issues on acid, and so rejecting these well-known, simple, and logically consistent factors in favor of an extremely complicated and unlikely alternative is to reject the principle of parsimony, of simplicity holding value when trying to scientifically understand any given phenomenon. Sometimes the true explanations for something will be more complex than some simpler, but false, competing theories. But in the face of a lack of data the simplest explanation will be best because the more complicated and unlikely an explanation is, the greater the burden of proof on the individual advancing that argument.

I think that the idea of 'dirty acid' making you feel shitty from some contaminating chemical is just the most recent, modern evolution of the old myth about strychnine being laid on acid blotter. People don't like to think that any negativity experienced while tripping may have an internal explanation – some issue within themselves being the cause – preferring instead to blame the archetypical external factors. Whether this takes the form of strychnine making you super edgy and tense from a serious excess of energy during the comeup or some unnamed contaminant causing GI distress in the modern form of this myth is irrelevant. The important thing is that people don't like to admit that they may have some work to do relating to the less than ideal state of their psyche. It's the easy way out to blame the acid or blame the contaminant or whatever, much easier than recognizing that you may have some difficult stuff to work out within yourself.
 
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