Diphenhydramine Low Dose (100-200mg) How Much Should I Worry About Torsade de Pointes (QT-elongation) using low doses of DPH?

[Mayo_Tree]

What's your point?

If you want to fuck yourself up with chemicals, go right ahead.

My point is that DPH seems to have therapeutic effects at low doses. Problematic (fatal) doses are said to be around the 20-40mg/kg range, which is something like (if my math is correct) between 1400-3600mgs (for a person of 90kg, for example). Obviously.... no one should be taking grams of the stuff.

But at low doses, the dangers don't seem to be as pronounced as some (like yourself) are making it out to be.

That's my observation. If it can be used successfully at therapeutic doses, then that's a good thing, no?

But you're basically saying that anything over 100mg is a death-sentence. From what I see, that doesn't seem at all correct.

I mean, I could be wrong, but that's just what I seem to be seeing, based on the research. People seem to be taking it quite often, according to the prevalence of trip reports and people literally saying they've been using it daily for years. So.... I'm not imagining things.

 

[Forever Changes]

it's not just about it being fatal, delerium is almost nobody's idea of fun, and especially if you have mental health problems which you say you do. Wait till you see the doctor and see what they have to say.

 

[Mayo_Tree]

it's not just about it being fatal, delerium is almost nobody's idea of fun, and especially if you have mental health problems which you say you do. Wait till you see the doctor and see what they have to say.

At the levels I'm talking about there isn't really any delerium that I've noticed. It's heavy sedation with mild hallucinations (webs on the walls, sometimes little dots that fly around, noticing details and patterns on the wall, etc.), nothing major.

On top of it, the SSRI effect seems to have a god effect, as it lifts my mood. I dunno, it appears to be positive at those levels. I have no trouble following a conversation or anything out of the ordinary like with higher doses.

It's not exactly "fun," but neither are the plethora of psych meds doctors will push on you. It's not "fun," but it has its pleasant aspects, not completely negative.

I figure if it's available, why not use it, IF it can be used safely and (semi-)intelligently?

It's not exactly "recreational," but it's therapeutic. It's medicine. That's how I'm looking at it at least, as if it's a medicine which has some therapeutic potential in low-doses.

 

[d1nach]

In my opinion the issue is I believe it is likely mechanism it induces it's therapeutic antidepressant effects in some people is likely the same mechanism that causes the delirium. Similar to scopolamine via muscarinic acetylcholine receptor antagonism given blocking serotonin doesn't act so quickly. However, unlike SSRIs and now ketamine or whatever antidepressant it is just not safe enough for your sanity to be repeatedly hallucinating bugs like your in fear and loathing in loss Vegas EVEN if it was like I used to argue effective as a rapid antidepressant and had clear evidence and a mechanism.

 

[Mayo_Tree]

In my opinion the issue is I believe it is likely mechanism it induces it's therapeutic antidepressant effects in some people is likely the same mechanism that causes the delirium. Similar to scopolamine via muscarinic acetylcholine receptor antagonism given blocking serotonin doesn't act so quickly. However, unlike SSRIs and now ketamine or whatever antidepressant it is just not safe enough for your sanity to be repeatedly hallucinating bugs like your in fear and loathing in loss Vegas EVEN if it was like I used to argue effective as a rapid antidepressant and had clear evidence and a mechanism.

I hear you, but delerium simply isn't there at the doses I've described. At least, it's not present for me, nor (in general, from what I read) at the doses I've described. All that's there is a bit of shadowy webbing on the walls, a little crispness to light, etc. Really nothing major. Other than that, there is a sort of "body-buzz" present, which is not so unpleasant as at doses of 300+mg.

As far daily consumption goes, I spent quite a while last night on drugs-forum(.)com going through posts. It becomes apparent rather quickly that several people have used this med daily for years at doses much higher than what I'm suggesting.

This counters Snafu's idea that what I'm seeing is merely an "internet illusion" due to the prevalence of trip reports. To the contrary, there were many "swimmers" who recounted their retrospective experiences with DPH, using it daily at doses beteen 300-800mg.

Real danger (according to the literature) where the heart is concerned is (according to them) rare but possible when consuming grams (1-3g) of the stuff..... which is just ridiculous, imho.

Some have had long-term side-effects from daily abuse of this med, so it's nothing to play with. However, when used at (semi-)moderate levels, with as much intelligence and forethought as we can muster, it apears this compound can be used successfully for its therapeutic effects.

It is quite obvious from cursory research in drug-users' communuties, that there is a demonization of this drug, as well as a real fear of it, which is usually the knee-jerk reaction to seeing it brought up at all.

They all say something like: "Ugh! Why would you take DPH, just take DXM, drink alcohol and/or smoke weed, don't be stupid bro, you'll kill yourself bro."

Meaning no disrespect to anyone, but this is not hardly indicative of a well-informed, reflective response. And, believe me, there are many who say that sort of thing, it's not just limited to this forum by any means.

From my research, I am forced to conclude that it has merit at low (therapeutic) doses within the 100-200mg range, and that it is "generally" safe. There will always be exceptions which prove the rule, and I hope I won't become one of those, having to eat my words due to becoming a casualty. I truly hope not, but until I find (or am prescribed) something else, it's one of the few drugs at my immediate disposal with any positive result whatsoever.

I understand that many will disagree with my opinion on it, and that's fine; but it's not totally useless either. Again.... my opinion.

Stay safe, stay sane, and be blesed.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I just want to say, we are obviously a Harm Reduction resource and we're here to help people be safe,. However, when I start reading about stuff like Low QT and TDP, I find it concerning. We are totally incapable of providing any sort of usable information for you in this arena.

The only way to screen for a condition like this is via an Electro Cardio Gram EKG/ECG. For us to tell you one way or another would be really irresponsible and possibly fatal. The only information we have is that certain drugs have a tendency to cause cardio irregularities. Patients put on these drugs are typically advised of these risks, but are also screened for potential issues throughout their treatment.

I'm not being melodramatic, but you're not really going to find anything better than "it could be really terrible or it could be harmless" unless you actually go to a medical doctor or someone capable of screening you and ask them these questions directly.

 

[Mayo_Tree]

I just want to say, we are obviously a Harm Reduction resource and we're here to help people be safe,. However, when I start reading about stuff like Low QT and TDP, I find it concerning. We are totally incapable of providing any sort of usable information for you in this arena.

The only way to screen for a condition like this is via an Electro Cardio Gram EKG/ECG. For us to tell you one way or another would be really irresponsible and possibly fatal. The only information we have is that certain drugs have a tendency to cause cardio irregularities. Patients put on these drugs are typically advised of these risks, but are also screened for potential issues throughout their treatment.

I'm not being melodramatic, but you're not really going to find anything better than "it could be really terrible or it could be harmless" unless you actually go to a medical doctor or someone capable of screening you and ask them these questions directly.

I hear you, and I appreciate your response. I guess I'm just surprised that this readily available compound is so potentially dangerous (from some sources I read online) even at recommended doses (25-50mg)! I've definitely decided to approach it with caution. Problem is, now I have a lot of it, so.... it's either use it or throw it out.

Now, I first read about QT-prolongation and TDP several months ago in relation to another medication (Methadone), which has the same reputation (at least, in the literature) for cardiotoxicity. And people on MMT use Methadone daily, right?

Just for comparison.

But hey, if it's dangerous, it's dangerous. I think if I use it again, I'll stick with the recommended doses, although as I said.... those may also be problematic. Is DPH really a lose/lose? :/ Seems a waste, because were it not for that, it could be an interesting compound.

On top of it, many medications which formerly had DXM as the active ingredient have been switched to DPH. What a rip-off! Thinking specifically of a childrens cough syrup which had DXM-polistirex at one time, but now only has DPH. If it's that dangerous even at recommended doses, I can only speculate as to why they're putting it in everything now.

 

[plumbus-nine]

On top of it, many medications which formerly had DXM as the active ingredient have been switched to DPH. What a rip-off! Thinking specifically of a childrens cough syrup which had DXM-polistirex at one time, but now only has DPH. If it's that dangerous even at recommended doses, I can only speculate as to why they're putting it in everything now.

Because they prefer toxicity to recreational potential. Like codeine/paracetamol tablets which cause liver damage if abused.

Was weird to read in that delirious cult article that the medical dosage range was up to 300mg's when this dosage can already cause delirant hallucinations for some. I once in the endless wisdom of my teens dosed DPH at 500mg and got no effects beside a weird, gummi-like bodyload and some tiredness, thankfully was able to fall asleep pretty soon. No delirium for me. But when dosing it together with DXM (based on online information which is probably the reason for many), just 50 or 100mg (don't remember) caused auditory hallucinations. So this stuff is definitely a potent anticholinergic.

 

[Dreamflyer]

This is a great question.

I'm not a physician and everybody reacts differently to things, but I can tell you from experience that even 100mg is enough to give me heart palpitations. That tells me that it's not the healthiest thing in the world.

200mg is a very uncomfortable experience for me. I've done it a few times and always regretted it, with little to no benefits.

Stay safe my friend.

 

[Mayo_Tree]

Because they prefer toxicity to recreational potential. Like codeine/paracetamol tablets which cause liver damage if abused.

Was weird to read in that delirious cult article that the medical dosage range was up to 300mg's when this dosage can already cause delirant hallucinations for some. I once in the endless wisdom of my teens dosed DPH at 500mg and got no effects beside a weird, gummi-like bodyload and some tiredness, thankfully was able to fall asleep pretty soon. No delirium for me. But when dosing it together with DXM (based on online information which is probably the reason for many), just 50 or 100mg (don't remember) caused auditory hallucinations. So this stuff is definitely a potent anticholinergic.

Indeed. I had pretty much given up on the stuff after trying it once or twice at 350/300mg's, but then I read an article about how when combined with DXM, the DXM sort of cancels out the negative or undesirable effects of the DPH, and that the two somehow complimented one another, or synergized (or whatever... like I know what I'm talking about lol).

Point being, I tried it again combined with DXM, and found it to be a rather interesting mix. The frist time I tried it too, I took the DPH at intervals, in 100mg increments, every hour or so. I went up to a stupid amount, I'm a bit ashamed to say. For some reason, I was under the impression that DPH wasn't so dangerous, so I suppose the Lord was looking out for me that night (as He always does, in fact).
I don't recommend taking it in high doses at all, neither with or without DXM. But one of the last DXM trips I had, I dosed maybe 200mg's on top of it near the end, and it was an amazingly euphoric, contented calm. I remember thinking "I'll do this more often," which is why I suppose I ended up posting about it here, since I'd decided to maybe use it more often due to prevalence.

And honestly, the last time with DXM was so pleasant, it almost totally sold me. I tried it a few more times (175-200mg), and while one of those experiences was less pleasant (due to having read about the dangers of QT-prolongation and TDP specifically, having it go through my mind steadily while under the effects of the drug, directly contributing to my malaise), the other times I was able to use it effectlively as a stabilizing agent.

[Note: When I speak of "stabilization," it is because I suffer from some condition.... perhaps bipolar II, perhaps schizoaffective disorder..... perhaps both.... in addition to anxiety/panic disorder and some type of depression that never really goes away, but the doctors swear isn't there.... grrr.... I don't use common antidepressants/antipsychotics the doctors are quick to throw at you due to their inefficacy and side-effects, as well as the fact that I'm still in the process of being shopped around to doctors for a proper diagnosis in this area.
So... when my mood is off, and I'm feeling the teeth of the world, the razorblades on the wind, so to speak, I get high on something. It's my mechanism, and I personally prefer that to being addicted to some SSRI anyway that I won't be able to quit taking on my own terms if I don't like it, or it's ineffective, etc. I'm sure I'm not the only one here in a similar predicament, or rather.... I'd be surprised if I were.
Anyways, that's what I mean when I say "stabilization." Don't know if that makes sense. Ehh..... probably not (in the strictest sense), but you all get me, I'm sure.]

 

[Mayo_Tree]

This is a great question.

I'm not a physician and everybody reacts differently to things, but I can tell you from experience that even 100mg is enough to give me heart palpitations. That tells me that it's not the healthiest thing in the world.

200mg is a very uncomfortable experience for me. I've done it a few times and always regretted it, with little to no benefits (visuals, etc.).

Stay safe my friend.

Thank you, and to you as well.

Yes, it's strange, I've felt more heart-strain on doses of, say, 25-50mg than higher doses. That may be subjective however, and dependent on circumstance.

Like, the first time I took it, it was at 350mg. As soon as I felt it kick in, it triggered a panic attack, so my heart-rate went right up immediately. I popped a few benzos that time, and rode it out the best I could.

But, I remember taking it once at 50mg because I had run out of benzos and had read online that when it was first discovered, it was prescribed for anxiety. So I tried it at 50mg, and it gave me that heady, drowsy type feeling, but where I could definitely notice my hearbeat beating harder (something which often perturbs me, tbh).

And.... despite everything I've said, you're right. You, and everyone else. It's nothing to play around with, certainly not blindly, and without being well-informed.

I'm actually glad you thought my question was a good one, haha (at least someone does! I'm playing....). I was just trying to ascertain whether or not there is really any redeemable quality whatsoever to this drug, or if there is any way possible to use it safely at low doses for therapeutic purposes.

I have to admit, I'm a bit disappointed that the prognosis seems as negative as it does. But, it is how it is. What can I say? :/

 

[ghostcord]

I STRONGLY recommend against it even at low doses based on personal expirence.

Feels great but you can slip into drug induced psychosis without realizing anything’s wrong.

Frequent use has also been linked to dementia, but also you can get dementia like symptoms on it if you’re using daily.

As well as it just not being good on your organs and it being actually physically addictive with withdrawals. Nausea, vomiting, chills, the feeling of needing to use the bathroom 24/7. It’s just really not fun to withdraw from its pretty terrible.

Maybe using it “as needed” would be better for you. Try not to use multiple days in a row, it’s very hard on your body and brain.

 

[Mayo_Tree]

I STRONGLY recommend against it even at low doses based on personal expirence.

Feels great but you can slip into drug induced psychosis without realizing anything’s wrong.

Frequent use has also been linked to dementia, but also you can get dementia like symptoms on it if you’re using daily.

As well as it just not being good on your organs and it being actually physically addictive with withdrawals. Nausea, vomiting, chills, the feeling of needing to use the bathroom 24/7. It’s just really not fun to withdraw from its pretty terrible.

Maybe using it “as needed” would be better for you. Try not to use multiple days in a row, it’s very hard on your body and brain.

I already don't use multiple days in a row (although, there have been a couple/few days I used back-to-back, but that is rare).

"As needed" is more what I go for in general.

Today is a good example. I need something, as I feel "the edge" setting in. All I have is ample DPH, Methocarbamol (w/ ibuprofen), and that's it. I have enough Lyrica for a high, but I'm saving that for Monday (as I took Lyrica last night).

So, since Methocarbamol is a bunt, and DPH is out, the only other alternative is Alcohol (and all it's nasty repercussions), or weed-induced panic-attacks all day long.

Unfortunately, the latter is better for everyone else, just not myself.

So, I'm out of options, unfortunately.

 

[Mayo_Tree]

I thought this would be beneficial to share here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11204550/

It's a pubmed article which studied dose-dependent toxicity from DPH, and it was found that while "symptoms" can appear at as little as 0.3g (300mg), the greater risk appears to be with doses of 1.0-1.5g and above.

I don't need to mention how crazy it sounds to me to be taking GRAMS of this stuff. For sure it's got to have some serious issues at those high doses, even 300mg can be extremely unpleasant (in my experience).

But the implication also can be deduced that lower doses can be much less problematic, at least that's what I glean from an article like this.

 

[Dreamflyer]

I just re-read the original post and wanted to specify that I realize you're not taking it to "trip balls". Very low doses can definitely help some people with insomnia, anxiety and mood. In fact, the first SSRIs like Prozac were originally synthesized from antihistamines like Benadryl.

 

[Mayo_Tree]

I just re-read the original post and wanted to specify that I realize you're not taking it to "trip balls". Very low doses can definitely help some people with insomnia, anxiety and mood. In fact, the first SSRIs like Prozac were originally synthesized from antihistamines like Benadryl.

Yes, exactly! This is more what I'm going for. In fact, yesterday and the day before (I think), I tried it at 100mg. I wanted to see if it had an impact on mood lift at a level even below 200mg (because, why take a higher dose, if it will work at a lower one, right?).

The first day, I just took 100mg once in the day, and I noticed it helped take the edge off. The second day, I took it in the morning (100mg) and again in the evening (100mg), and this seemed to be pretty effective in helping my mood stay out of.... "dangerous territory."

I think 100mg is fairly manageable. I actually bought 2 more bottles of the stuff today, so I have a lot of it. It was on sale for $4.49, how could I resist? lol

So, if I use it in this manner, carefully...... I'm thinking it could be an effective (although far from ideal) way to maneage my symptoms of anxiety, mood, and depression, at least until I see a psych and he gives me........................................... Memantine.

Lol.... shyeah, right. (I wish though, I really want to try it, I think it may be helpful.)

 

[plumbus-nine]

At least until I see a psych and he gives me........................................... Memantine.

Did you try memantine already or are just thinking it might help you?

I was on memantine for quite some time and while is an interesting med so it isn't a full nmda antagonist and didn't cut it for me. I got insomnia from it which became problematic with higher dosages. But I was using it alongside methoxetamine to level out the ups and downs which came with the use of MXE.

If you don't have tolerance to dissociatives (DPH isn't a Disso and won't induce tolerance to them) then memantine might indeed be good.

 

[Mayo_Tree]

Did you try memantine already or are just thinking it might help you?

I was on memantine for quite some time and while is an interesting med so it isn't a full nmda antagonist and didn't cut it for me. I got insomnia from it which became problematic with higher dosages. But I was using it alongside methoxetamine to level out the ups and downs which came with the use of MXE.

If you don't have tolerance to dissociatives (DPH isn't a Disso and won't induce tolerance to them) then memantine might indeed be good.

No, I haven't tried it, I've just been looking into it, and it sounds interesting. I'm not *fully* convinced that it will help me, it's just something I'd like to try to see if it helps. One among many others, I guess.

Oh man, I miss MXE! If I had garbage bags full of MXE, I'd need nothing else, haha. That stuff was very therapeutic in moderate doses. Helped to change my outlook on life, for real.

It's quite possible that I have some tolerance to dissociatives, as I've done a LOT of DXM over the years. So, maybe it won't be that great after all. Tbh, there are some cardiac side effects I'm hearing about as well, which I find off-putting. I'm scared of crap like that. Well.... cautious.

 

[mdaniel80]

See, look... this dude says they've been using high doses of DPH for years...

https://drugs-forum.com/threads/looking-for-other-deliriants.356092/

well if that guy did it then.... cmon

 

[mdaniel80]

No, I haven't tried it, I've just been looking into it, and it sounds interesting. I'm not *fully* convinced that it will help me, it's just something I'd like to try to see if it helps. One among many others, I guess.

Oh man, I miss MXE! If I had garbage bags full of MXE, I'd need nothing else, haha. That stuff was very therapeutic in moderate doses. Helped to change my outlook on life, for real.

It's quite possible that I have some tolerance to dissociatives, as I've done a LOT of DXM over the years. So, maybe it won't be that great after all. Tbh, there are some cardiac side effects I'm hearing about as well, which I find off-putting. I'm scared of crap like that. Well.... cautious.

memantine has a loooooong half-life. If you dose too high or dont like the effects, you are in it for days