dihydrotixin-metasulfonate (Ergoloid dihydroergotoxine)

[SpiralusSancti]

I didn’t look into much details about this online but just reading instructions I found along with a bit of this chemical. Reading it makes me think that discovering benefits of lsd for the brain is kinda discovering hot water.

I’ll write up approximate translation of what’s said about this drug -

“It increases metabolic activity of ganglionic cells, meaning it increases energy metabolism of brain mass by decreasing anaerobic metabolism and increased O₂ usage. It affects metabolism by regulating cAMP-a and affects enzyme system connected to creating and destroying ATP. It also increases usage of glucose in the brain. Result of that is better intracellular metabolism of functionally damaged neurons.”

It also mentions possible effects on acetylcholine and that it affects dopamine (agonist) , serotonin (agonist) and noradrenaline (antagonist). It’s noted that unlike other ergot derivatives it has a lot weaker symphatolitic effects (getting you less high?) and effects on uterus (no vasoconstriciton?) is almost nonexistent.

This sounds like a great stuff, only problem I have 30 years old stuff. Anyone know to what it possibly degraded or how stable this should be?

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Never saw the first chemical name and it didn't show in a search but the "ergoloid dihydroergotoxine" is Hydergine.
Hydergine is one of the original "smart drugs" and used to be prescribed for Alzheimer's (when that's all they had).
I thought that it's main action was increasing blood flow to the brain.
As smart drugs went, it was more subtle and had a propensity to cause me a headache. Usually the headache was when I went the synergy route and combined with Piracetum or Deprenyl.
I actually just finished up some Hydergine I found in my basement. 10 years or so old, it still worked. Definite, pleasant, but not super strong mental stimulant. I always felt it had a bit of the acid signature, just a bit, but that could be psychosomatic.

Anyway, take it if you want to feel a little sharper, but don't expect a lot.

I'm taking Ginko Biloba I found down there as well now that the Hydergine is gone. Similar sharpness and mild headache factor.


Wired magazine used to be cutting edge on smart drugs.
Quote sometimes seen on columns about them. - "I forgot to take my Hydergine.".
Think about it.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

The one I got person got for vertigo and in instructions it says it’s main use is for dementia. I’m not surprised first name doesn’t show up as it’s translation of “local” naming of this chemical.

I’ll certainly give it a try. If I get 1/10 what I got from l-deprenyl I’ll be happy and if I get any lasting effects, even better.

What’s your dosing? According to instructions, usual dose is 1mg and maximum 3mg. It also used to come in solution for I.V. , I wonder is there any reason beside increased BA?

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I don't remember dose. I think around 3mg. I've likely tried different dosages. I spent my 30's taking smart drugs while taking classes (on school night). Then I spent part of my 40's taking them on Mondays for the pot fuzzies.

Deprenyl is way more "drug like". I found it pretty formidable as a smart drug.
When using it for that, I dosed 1/2 a milligram a day combined with other things for synergy. It does build up in your system.
I used Deprenyl more often for wakefulness and energy in higher doses.
Many "smart drugs" enhance acetylcholine more than Norepinephrine or Dopamine. You feel more focused and sharper.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I took my first dose and I feel really good. Might be placebo but very likely isn’t and I think this might provide much of the same neurological benefits of lysergamides without a trip. I’ll be upping my dose daily for few days and than make a pause (as it’s not too far fetched to expect this builds up tolerance fast, or I might be wrong). As I get close to finishing my stash of it, I might leave a bit to test if there’s possibly any kind of cross tolerance with acid or something. Hopefully I’ll do some acid or other lysergamides during summer at last.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Here’s an update. I took a bit of light opiod, 10mg of diazepam and drank some wine. I stupidly remembered topic – “does high dose of opiods reset bla bla” and thought, hey I didn’t took a proper dose of benzo in ages (therefore didn’t let my worries melt away totally in ages) and ended up eating 50mg (I would much rather have done strong opiod or disso for that but can’t atm) followed with more than enough antihistamine to get me to sleep and a few joints. As a last thing I took 1mg of this and o boy, neither I got to sleep, I felt really clearheaded (extremely so given what all I have consumed) and what’s best I feel great day after. I think today I’ll stop benzos totally and 50mg of diaz will linger long enough in my body for me to avoid WD’s from something like 30mg oxazepam daily. This stuff also has an interesting taste, bitter but still really reminds of something specific I can’t really say what.
O yeah, it seems it also prevented constipation caused by opiods (tho it might have been cuz of something else so I’m still not sure about that).
And with everything I took I got rather colourful visual snow/hppd, after I took ergoloid, before that it got less intense than usual.

If half of what I’m experiencing is not placebo, I really hope this wont be last time I’ll get it.

I’m really interested to know if someone done more work on related substances as this seems like a true gem. Noopept or modafinil are babies compared to this stuff.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

"It was developed by Albert Hofmann (the discoverer of LSD) for Sandoz (now part of Novartis)."

Ergoloid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I’m bordering possessed with this chemical and wish I had a lot more. I’ve dosed up to 8mg np. I’m benzo free and also take a lot less of a my current opiod and actually get a lot stronger effects (I think both spreading doses more and this chemical helped). I also did some MDxx and it definitely changed effects. I did a really small dose and got nice effects and both nice after-effect (and I’ve done far too much drugs in my life to feel good after doing MDxx by myself, meaningful shared experience still can cut it for x reasons, but hey, did it alone and I do feel great). I had more visuals than I ever got from a small dose of MDxx alone.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I got some more of this, for me potentially wonder drug. Like hours after I wrote about l-deprenyl, I basically forgot about this as it’s a whole other thing, whole other flavor. Too bad I can’t get any serious amount due to...well fucking world lol.

Anyway it’s been a day of trying to be useful. First I took a few 0.5mg clonazepam pills, smoked a tiny joint of afghan but fine afghan hash, I also took 300mg of tramadol and tiny chunk of fresh San Pedro, 1 nitrous whippet and opened a bottle of a bit too old but still fine red wine. All in all, I’m pretty content at that point, not so much cuz of drugs (drugs are errrr more...get medal more for me not feeling fucking horrible given the circumstances) but cuz I’ve done some good things today. And during supper I added a few mg of this wonderful Hofmann’s invention. And very soon after I feel different, more clear, less impaired and what’s probably of most interest for you who, well, look more into, pure neurological side of drugs – my visual snow and HPPD are toned down.

I’m really looking forward trying this in some more serious combos. Also I’m pretty sure this really does help with heavy metal poisoning or biological damage from PTSP and what not… This is an old gem waiting to be polished.

I have only small amount of this but I’m so happy about it and I’ll keep trying it in combos or keep dosing moderate doses as I don’t think there’s much use in pushing this high.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I got some more of this, for me potentially wonder drug. Like hours after I wrote about l-deprenyl, I basically forgot about this as it’s a whole other thing, whole other flavor. Too bad I can’t get any serious amount due to...well fucking world lol.

Anyway it’s been a day of trying to be useful. First I took a few 0.5mg clonazepam pills, smoked a tiny joint of afghan but fine afghan hash, I also took 300mg of tramadol and tiny chunk of fresh San Pedro, 1 nitrous whippet and opened a bottle of a bit too old but still fine red wine. All in all, I’m pretty content at that point, not so much cuz of drugs (drugs are errrr more...get medal more for me not feeling fucking horrible given the circumstances) but cuz I’ve done some good things today. And during supper I added a few mg of this wonderful Hofmann’s invention. And very soon after I feel different, more clear, less impaired and what’s probably of most interest for you who, well, look more into, pure neurological side of drugs – my visual snow and HPPD are toned down.

I’m really looking forward trying this in some more serious combos. Also I’m pretty sure this really does help with heavy metal poisoning or biological damage from PTSP and what not… This is an old gem waiting to be polished.

I have only small amount of this but I’m so happy about it and I’ll keep trying it in combos or keep dosing moderate doses as I don’t think there’s much use in pushing this high.

Too much Hydergine gives me a headache.
I imagine that too, too much could do worse.
An over the counter herb which I found to be just a little like Hydergine is Ginko Biloba.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Too much Hydergine gives me a headache.
I imagine that too, too much could do worse.
An over the counter herb which I found to be just a little like Hydergine is Ginko Biloba.

I pushed a dose quite a bit when I first tried it and not long after making this thread. I think I tried 8mg or even more (12mg rings a bell) and didn’t suffer any ill effects but neither noticed more positive ones (maybe hints of it becoming really psychoactive in a classic senses, but just hints). I’m also convinced it had some effects in combo with MDxx but that might be just placebo.

Have in mind I’m maybe really repairing something by use of this so effects for me might differ from effects in someone using it as a nootropic.

 

[red22]

"It was developed by Albert Hofmann (the discoverer of LSD) for Sandoz (now part of Novartis)."

Ergoloid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hydergine Developer Albert Hofmann Turns A Hundred (David Jay Brown)

Too much Hydergine gives me a headache.
I imagine that too, too much could do worse.
An over the counter herb which I found to be just a little like Hydergine is Ginko Biloba.

In 2013 the European Medicines Agency’s Committee for Medicinal Products for Human Use (CHMP) has recommended that medicines containing ergot derivatives no longer be used to treat several conditions involving problems with memory, sensation or blood circulation, or to prevent migraine headaches because the risks (increased risk of fibrosis and ergotism) were said to be greater than the benefits in these indications.[22]

22. Restrictions on use of medicines containing ergot derivatives (EMA 2013) Archived 20 June 2018 at the Wayback Machine, Retrieved 3 August 2014

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydroergotamine (European Union)

 

[izo]

Tried hydergine in 2009 And found it to be quite nice for a nootropic. Gives you a spaced out feeling in the head but i didnt found it to be a big enhancer for the brain but i didnt had many doses of it anyway.

 

[red22]

It's a mixture of several hydrogenated analogs of natural ergoline chemicals, i.e. ergocornine, ergocristine, and ergocriptine.

Co-dergocrine mesylate (Hydergine) is a mixture of the methane sulfonates of the dihydrogenated derivatives of the three alkaloids of ergotoxin (dihydroergocornine, dihydroergocristine, and dihydroergocryptine).

Meyler's Side Effects of Drugs: The International Encyclopedia of Adverse Drug Reactions and Interactions (Fifteenth Edition), 2006

So, it shouldn't be too expensive to just order one of those chemicals from an overseas lab to just get a taste of hydergine's effects, no?

And what about hydrogenated LSD? According to David Nichols, hydrogenating it (at the 9,10 position) "abolishes" psychedelic activity, but could this perhaps impart a nootropic effect to LSD, like with these toxic ergot chemicals?

Reduction of the 9,10-double bond of LSD abolishes hallucinogenic activity.31, 32 The reason(s) for the loss of activity are not clear, nor has there ever been a comparison of receptor activities of dihydro-LSD with those of LSD. Reduction of the 9,10 olefinic bond of LSD gives a molecule that still maintains relative planarity, like LSD. Although a correlation has been reported between hallucinogenic activity of tryptamines and the orientation of one of the nodes in the highest occupied π-like orbital,33 this correlation failed for LSD, and the author of this study stated, ‘The 9,10 double bond in LSD must fulfill some role that is not modeled in this work.’

Structure–activity relationships of serotonin 5-HT2A agonists. David Nichols, 2012, WIREs Membr Transp Signal, 1: 559-579. DOI: 10.1002/wmts.42 (Ergolines)

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Tried hydergine in 2009 And found it to be quite nice for a nootropic. Gives you a spaced out feeling in the head but i didnt found it to be a big enhancer for the brain but i didnt had many doses of it anyway.

Kinda spacey, and yet "sharp". It's nice and all, but very prone to a headache. I had ordered a bunch when I was into such things and I certainly did, carefully, use it up over the years.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

MM120 (lysergide d-tartrate)

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/07/health/lsd-anxiety-fda-breakthrough-therapy-wellness/index.html

Looks interesting but no personal eperience offcourse "the study’s grade of MM120 did not appear to induce “bad trips,”
Never had one on street LSD or any anologue but this might differ ? Maybe no trip only the benefits, doubt it. Could.

 

[red22]

It's standard LSD. Lysergide is a known synonym for LSD. That article is nothing but hype.

That being said, I'm very interested in two analogs that don't have the di-:

lysergic acid ethylamide
lysergic acid butylamide

I'm interested in them because although I like LSD's psychological effect, I don't like its somatic effect. Others agree with me.

Zero interest in that. LSD had a gross energy and nature spirits I work with prefer nature over lab chemicals.

MapachoCura, https://www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/s/18w13age3P

I agree, to me LSD, while it's had it's nice moments for sure, it just feels kinda not good to me, it's too stimulating for my taste, if i'm going for a 12 hour experience, i'm going for Psilohuasca, it feels way better lol.

Sabnock101, https://www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/s/ehSOMXVtq2


Lysergic acid ethylamide sounds like it has a nicer feel:

“A substance very closely related to LSD, the monoethylamide of lysergic acid (LAE-32), in which an ethyl group is replaced by a hydrogen atom on the diethylamide residue of LSD, proved to be some ten times less psychoactive than LSD. The hallucinogenic effect is also qualitatively different: it is characterized by a narcotic component. This narcotic effect is yet more pronounced in lysergic acid amide (LA-111), in which both ethyl groups of LSD are displaced by hydrogen atoms. These effects, which I established in comparative self-experiments with LA-111 and LAE-32, were corroborated by subsequent clinical investigations.”

Albert Hofmann. LSD: My Problem Child (1979), 3. Chemical Modifications of LSD

A CIA document echoes Hofmann's description:

“On the basis of the observations, the investigators considered LAE as a new kind of "sedative"; a sedative which in its effect is neither related to the group of hypnotica and narcotica of the barbituric or morphine type, nor to the group of the sympathico- or parasympathicolytic chemicals.”

Project MKULTRA, Subproject 8. Memorandum for the Record. 9 June 1953

More info about LAE-32:

https://nervewing.blogspot.com/2020/05/obscure-and-unknown-lae-32.html


There is also a dibutylamide, so presumably lysergic acid butylamide's effects correspond with LAE's.

These butylamine derivatives are intriguing.

One member said this:

Diethylamine is a pain in the ass to work with, butylamine is not.

@Esperighanto

And the dibutylamide may be even more potent than the diethylamide because the butylamide seems to be almost as potent as LSD!

“However, the in vivo behavioral response decreased markedly as the length of the N-alkyl chain was increased with the previously reported¹³ (R)-2-butyllysergamide 2a being the most potent compound in this series.”

Stereoselective LSD-like activity in a series of d-lysergic acid amides of (R)- and (S)-2-aminoalkanes. Monte AP, Marona-Lewicka D, Kanthasamy A, Sanders-Bush E, Nichols DE. 1995. J Med Chem, 38(6):958-66. doi: 10.1021/jm00006a015 (Results and Discussion)

See the table for the technical info:



Data for LSD and "LSB" are also presented in table 1 in the below link.

David Nichols says that the work on LSD analogs has been sparse because of their complex structures (i.e. LSD has been receiveing too much attention).

Because of its complex structure, only a few modifications of LSD have been carried out, and those involved alterations of the amide function, reduction of the 2,3- or 9,10-double bonds, substitutions on the indole nitrogen or at the 2-position, and changes in the alkyl group on the basic nitrogen atom. Unfortunately, very few of these changes have been studied using modern molecular pharmacology methods, and only some of them have been assessed in human psychopharmacology.

Structure–activity relationships of serotonin 5-HT2A agonists. David Nichols, 2012, WIREs Membr Transp Signal, 1: 559-579. DOI: 10.1002/wmts.42 (Ergolines)

 

[emkee_reinvented]

It's standard LSD. Lysergide is a known synonym for LSD. That article is nothing but hype.

That being said, I'm very interested in two analogs that don't have the di-:

lysergic acid ethylamide
lysergic acid butylamide

I'm interested in them because although I like LSD's psychological effect, I don't like its somatic effect. Others agree with me.

Zero interest in that. LSD had a gross energy and nature spirits I work with prefer nature over lab chemicals.

MapachoCura, https://www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/s/18w13age3P

I agree, to me LSD, while it's had it's nice moments for sure, it just feels kinda not good to me, it's too stimulating for my taste, if i'm going for a 12 hour experience, i'm going for Psilohuasca, it feels way better lol.

Sabnock101, https://www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/s/ehSOMXVtq2


Lysergic acid ethylamide sounds like it has a nicer feel:

“A substance very closely related to LSD, the monoethylamide of lysergic acid (LAE-32), in which an ethyl group is replaced by a hydrogen atom on the diethylamide residue of LSD, proved to be some ten times less psychoactive than LSD. The hallucinogenic effect is also qualitatively different: it is characterized by a narcotic component. This narcotic effect is yet more pronounced in lysergic acid amide (LA-111), in which both ethyl groups of LSD are displaced by hydrogen atoms. These effects, which I established in comparative self-experiments with LA-111 and LAE-32, were corroborated by subsequent clinical investigations.”

Albert Hofmann. LSD: My Problem Child (1979), 3. Chemical Modifications of LSD

A CIA document echoes Hofmann's description:

“On the basis of the observations, the investigators considered LAE as a new kind of "sedative"; a sedative which in its effect is neither related to the group of hypnotica and narcotica of the barbituric or morphine type, nor to the group of the sympathico- or parasympathicolytic chemicals.”

Project MKULTRA, Subproject 8. Memorandum for the Record. 9 June 1953

More info about LAE-32:

https://nervewing.blogspot.com/2020/05/obscure-and-unknown-lae-32.html


There is also a dibutylamide, so presumably lysergic acid butylamide's effects correspond with LAE's.

These butylamine derivatives are intriguing.

One member said this:

@Esperighanto

And the dibutylamide may be even more potent than the diethylamide because the butylamide seems to be almost as potent as LSD!

“However, the in vivo behavioral response decreased markedly as the length of the N-alkyl chain was increased with the previously reported¹³ (R)-2-butyllysergamide 2a being the most potent compound in this series.”

Stereoselective LSD-like activity in a series of d-lysergic acid amides of (R)- and (S)-2-aminoalkanes. Monte AP, Marona-Lewicka D, Kanthasamy A, Sanders-Bush E, Nichols DE. 1995. J Med Chem, 38(6):958-66. doi: 10.1021/jm00006a015 (Results and Discussion)

See the table for the technical info:



Data for LSD and "LSB" are also presented in table 1 in the below link.

David Nichols says that the work on LSD analogs has been sparse because of their complex structures (i.e. LSD has been receiveing too much attention).

Because of its complex structure, only a few modifications of LSD have been carried out, and those involved alterations of the amide function, reduction of the 2,3- or 9,10-double bonds, substitutions on the indole nitrogen or at the 2-position, and changes in the alkyl group on the basic nitrogen atom. Unfortunately, very few of these changes have been studied using modern molecular pharmacology methods, and only some of them have been assessed in human psychopharmacology.

Structure–activity relationships of serotonin 5-HT2A agonists. David Nichols, 2012, WIREs Membr Transp Signal, 1: 559-579. DOI: 10.1002/wmts.42 (Ergolines)

thanks for clearing that up. Felt like a marketing scheme.

Though acylitating acid does make it less mean. So that the could means that, but if its basickly LSD then imo ALD-52 would be what they essentiallty aiming at. right. smooth trip almost ensured. .