Different MDMA synthesis routes resulting in different s/r isomer ratios?

[Evad]

I'm going to keep this rather vague as not to stray into synthesis discussion. In EADD over time and of late I have noticed a lot of seasoned UK ecstasy users saying that the effects of MDMA changed noticeably around 1998, that after a drought the pills that returned to the market were always somewhat lacking to those before it. I have read/heard that it is around this time that the main precursor being used was changed from safrole to piperanol. Well the UK suffered another drought and now MDMA is back it is speculated the common synthesis route has changed and again there are users complaining that this post-drought MDMA lacks the "magic" of pre drought stuff. Recently this has been bought to my attention

I received research samples of each of the two isomers from my NIMH contacts, and set up a pretty much blind study. One of the results was clear and not unexpected. The "S" isomer was clearly the more potent one -- the effective dose was between 60 and 120 milligrams, whereas the "R" isomer was barely threshold at 160 milligrams. This was about a 2:1 weight ratio favoring the "S" or "stimulant" isomer as defining the action. What was unexpected was that neither isomer gave the magic of the racemic MDMA. It was almost as if both the separate pharmacological components needed to be present to experience the unusual properties of this drug.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/isomers.htm

While I had been previously dissmissive of these different routes producing end products that were different in effect (MDMA is MDMA is MDMA etc) it does seem that a mix of isomers that was weighted more heavily "R" could be perceived as an inferior product.

So is there any likelihood of this being the case or was my initial scepticism correct?

 

[atara]

Any route that proceeds through the nitropropene or the P2P will produce a 50:50 split unless an asymmetric catalyst is used.

MDMA can also be made from alpha-methyl-DOPA, a Parkinson's drug, and this may produce chirally pure MDMA. However, that's incredibly unlikely.

 

[vecktor]

there is a general rule that a synthesis that doesn't involve chiral reagents does not make a chiral product or even a slight excess of one enantiomer over the other.

Many people report differing mdma 'magic' over time, tIf we assume this is real and not selective memory and nostalgia the most likely explanation is that in ecstacy pills the dose fell and the constitution changed quite a lot over time.

Forensic analysis in Europe shows that in the 1980's ecstacy was mostly just MDMA then from about 1988 onwards it was MDMA and amphetamine (and often caffeine) mixture in quite high doses until perhaps the late 90's then probably due to developments in Poland the amphetamine and content dropped and it went to MDMA caffeine with ever decreasing doses.

Also throw into the mix MDEA in the mid to late 1990's large quantities of MDA for a couple of years in the early 90's, MBDB for a short while in the late 1990's then increasing amounts of various piperazines from 2000 onwards.

As far as I am aware clandestine (read badly purified) MDMA from piperonal of MDP2P or from safrole all the standard routes are practically identical, the impurities are not there in sufficient amounts to have an effect. there are sufficient impurities to identify the route used but I cannot see traces of safrole or mdp2p or nasty nitrostyrene polymers or whatever having any effect

I also think people have serous nostalgia problems, the first few times are likely to be more impressive because of the novelty (or perhaps before the brain damage kicks in )

 

[pofacedhoe]

taking MDMA in large amounts can cause loss of magic

i found some MDMA on the floor at glastonbury this year (0.22g) and it was just as mindblowing as ever (but then i NEVER took ten pills in a night or over 350mg), and i take breaks in between use.

anyway the novelty has worn off for me as the high produced false feelings of infatuation for someone at a gig that i didn't even know and when i came out of the peak i was dissapointed upon talking to this person that my feelings were some kind of loved up bullshit that had no basis in reality.

i do however like aMT a lot more as a far superior replacement for rolling

if you are getting MDEA instead of MDMA which is more likely than varying isomers then it will lack the magic, as for a while pure MDEA was all that was going around in a town where i lived.

 

[indelibleface]

I`ve had some pills tested as MDEA before - the effects always dramatically dropped away around +2 hours. Good if taken in higher doses that you would MDMA, though. Not my favorite of the MDMA analogs, however.

 

[Evad]

Thanks for answers everyone. MDEA has been suspected as the culprit but a few of the current pills going round (that some are claiming "aren't as good as the old days") have been GCMS tested as containing MDMA only.

 

[pofacedhoe]

I`ve had some pills tested as MDEA before - the effects always dramatically dropped away around +2 hours. Good if taken in higher doses that you would MDMA, though. Not my favorite of the MDMA analogs, however.

MDEA is lacking magic and is too sedating, when taken in high doses (500mg+ easy to do cos the high is so unsatisfying) its very trippy in that you cannot recognise the faces of your friends and keep thinking they are someone different every five seonds, even though they look the same-its a royal headfuck that i have NEVER had from any other drug. it blows your mind cos you start saying things you shouldn't because you think that the person you are taking to is someone else.

 

[pofacedhoe]

Thanks for answers everyone. MDEA has been suspected as the culprit but a few of the current pills going round (that some are claiming "aren't as good as the old days") have been GCMS tested as containing MDMA only.

maybe all the people doing shitloads of Mephedrone in EADD for the past two years have burned out, or they forget that MDMA isn't speedy like Meph. i had MDMA in the summer and was surprised the high was so clear, calm and lucid after yonks of doing Meph (which is edgy and compulsive)

 

[indelibleface]

MDEA is lacking magic and is too sedating, when taken in high doses (500mg+ easy to do cos the high is so unsatisfying) its very trippy in that you cannot recognise the faces of your friends and keep thinking they are someone different every five seonds, even though they look the same-its a royal headfuck that i have NEVER had from any other drug. it blows your mind cos you start saying things you shouldn't because you think that the person you are taking to is someone else.

Yeah, yeah, you get the horror show delirious MDA-type effect if you take too much. It's the reason I stopped liking MDA - I once took a huge amount, and pretty much felt like I was insane for four hours. Not fun.

 

[pofacedhoe]

Yeah, yeah, you get the horror show delirious MDA-type effect if you take too much. It's the reason I stopped liking MDA - I once took a huge amount, and pretty much felt like I was insane for four hours. Not fun.

MDA is much more mentally challenging than MDEA. its got a brutal body load as well

i have had the most realistic halucinations of my life on it though, a charging rhino randomly appearing out of my friends head inkblot style like the video for gnarls barkly crazy. it was going about 30 miles an hour.

MDA is fun but if you have it regularly the novelty of being confused with a huge body load wears off

plus only certain MDA batches were magical, some were very speedy and bland. maybe thats set and setting...
but some were just crap and it was agreed on by most that took em. maybe it was the dose but on the subject of varying isomers it has wayyy more of an effect on MDA than MDMA i would guess

 

[Dr. Beat]

I tried to find info on the neuro mechanical differences between MDMA and MDEA, and the little I found was that MDMA releases a lot more nor-adrenaline than MDEA, so you have indirectly a lot more body dopamine on MDMA, to help your body move and dance about, and increases the high. And the extra nor-adrenaline helps counter balance the excessive serotonin being released on MDMA - I don't know how to explain it any better.

 

[Tranced]

Forensic analysis in Europe shows that in the 1980's ecstacy was mostly just MDMA then from about 1988 onwards it was MDMA and amphetamine (and often caffeine) mixture in quite high doses until perhaps the late 90's

That's quite interesting, always thought it sounded like pills were probably cut with speed when people said you only needed one to keep you up for two days!

Any links regarding this?

 

[vecktor]

That's quite interesting, always thought it sounded like pills were probably cut with speed when people said you only needed one to keep you up for two days!

Any links regarding this?

Nick Saunders collated the data and put it on his e is for ecstacy site, up til his death (in '98 or 99 I forget.)
there are a couple of academic papers on the more recent composition of ecstacy tablets which if I get the time I'll post links

 

[missing old pills]

This is a very interesting thread. I'm convinced 'ecstasy' I'm calling it that as the uk has no testing on what chemicals are hitting our streets be it in whatever combination(MDMA+MDA,MDMA+MDEA,etc) imo is not the quality it should be.
I've heard all the arguments(on combinations loss of magic is not an issue) and still I'm not convinced.
My hope is that someone somewhere is going to pick up on this and produce a better product that can be found today.

 

[missing old pills]

That's quite interesting, always thought it sounded like pills were probably cut with speed when people said you only needed one to keep you up for two days!

Any links regarding this?

Hi mate I took pills in the 80's and 1 pill would have never kept me up for 2 days! Not a chance. The 2 grams of cut speed might of but not the pills.

 

[ecsplosiv]

its very trippy in that you cannot recognise the faces of your friends and keep thinking they are someone different every five seonds, even though they look the same-its a royal headfuck that i have NEVER had from any other drug. it blows your mind cos you start saying things you shouldn't because you think that the person you are taking to is someone else.

This is so true! -- I have experienced this several times with Pink 3D Love Hearts in Ibiza in 2008. Interestingly the trippiness persisted long after the comedown, even some 6 hours after. On this topic by the way, those particular pills did contain a certain je ne sais quoi that was never rediscovered, MDA?!

With large amounts of MDMA even now I get similar effects when I am tired (and partially dreaming) i.e. I'll be playing conversations out in my head and even though I'm lying in bed with my girlfriend I will start acting out the conversation "so.. are you seeing anyone at the moment?..." -- "what line of work are you in?!".

In clubs I have weird moments where I have been kinda dreaming, open my eyes and expect someone to be there who isn't i.e. some event that has just been a figment of my imagination!

 

[edar]

ok, i want to bring this thread up again...
Please don't let this thread "stray" towards MDEA, MDA, and "what is in pills" direction...
Keep it just on MDMA
or, more precisely, possibility of "different s/r isomer ratios" in street MDMA.

if laboratory tested, and confirmed, mdma do not have "full magic" effect on a user that never before
had any "loss of magic" and who used mdma 12-14 times in life, spaced 3 (and more) months apart,
than something is not right...
also, the same (laboratory tested) mdma, had similar effect on a new users (first timers)
(of course, they cannot say, they cannot compare) but this was observed by "experienced" friends...
then this is very strange...

so, to avoid theories, the only real practical solution is to test for s/r isomer ratios.
where (what type of lab) can test this ?
is it expensive ?

 

[sekio]

Use a polarimeter, they cost under a hundred dollars to acquire. Make sure to account for the fact that cuts like e.g. dextrose will throw your measurements off. Perhaps you could do a mini scale acid base extraction on a pill and then figure the specific rotation. If the rotation is anything but 0 then you have an optically active alkaloid in there... whether or not it's MDMA is another thing...

If you missed earlier in the thread, vecktor touched on the fact that almost all of the standard routes of synthesis (omitting chiral catalysts or intermediates) result in racemic MDMA.

Unless labs are fractionally crystallizing isomers out, or dealers are buying pure S-MDMA from Tocris or some guys who use chiral catalysts. Those are doubtful though.

Cheap answer: your MDMA is almost certainly racemic.

 

[edar]

ok... a few questions...

first, i have no pills, just MDMA hydrochloride...
free lab test confirmed by analysis that this is MDMA 77%
out of max. possible 84% (remaining 16% is reserved for hydrochloride)
so it is up to 7% "impure" but most of this can be just a moisture from
the air, because it is a dust, and already a little clods/nuggets are forming...
so do you think that some "cuts" that can throw measurements off
can be present here? and is there a need for an acid base extraction?

will a polarimeter under a hundred dollars just indicate if it is "racemic or not",
or it can precisely show percents of s/r ratio, like e.g. 42% S / 58% R ??

 

[LSDMDMA&AMP]

is MDMA hygroscopic?
some chemicals do absorb moisture from the air if left out, methamphetamine does apparently...
if there is cut in it there's barely any and i wouldnt wanna waste product trying to pull out so little (cut..i thought actual impurities can only really get to like 2% at the worst if the chemist doesn't watch it).
Wouldn't most MDMA be racemic because synthing just one isomer is supposed to be a lot harder and more importantly more expensive to do, and there's no incentive to do so anyway pretty much?
oh yeah.
P2P is how racemic methamphetamine is produced right?
so MDP2P would give racemic MDMA no matter what then too if i understand right?
http://old.lf3.cuni.cz/drogy/database/?sortcol=&sortdir=&first=20
and on the topic of old pills feeling different
while i dont speak czech obviously it would seem to appear that MDMA wasnt always being pressed as the hcl salt (or would laktosa and all that mean some other salt form?)
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15335
and on that page its claimed MDMA citrate metabolizes differently than hcl, that could be a factor right?