• Neuroscience & Pharmacology Discussion Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Recent Journal Articles Chemistry Mega-Thread
    FREE Chemistry Databases! Self-Education Guide

  • N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

diethylbarbituric acid

f13nd

f13nd

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
500
Location
Over the stars
I was wondering, is this the precursor to the other barbituates or is it just a separate structure that is used as a reference?
 
Sounds like the first Barbiturate, Veronal (aka Barbital):

5,5-diethylbarbiturate. Diethylbarbituric acid is another name for this chemical.
 
Its active, one of the longer acting barbs, in fact the first commercially marketed as a sedative, veronal is oooooold school, so old school that it beats you with a cane for swearing or smoking herb in class and wears a mortarboard, with most likely, cobwebs inside=D

I've a lot of experience with it, taking dose after dose daily, will mount up and have cumulative effects, as its one of the longer acting barbs, in common with phenobarb, although it shits all over phenobarb's grandfather's gravestone (speaking of gravestones, it can quite easily make you require such)

See my thread on AMPA competitive channel blockade here in ADD for details of what it seems to be able to do when abused, potential longterm effects, and the withdrawals are far, far worse than even severe GBL or opioid withdrawals, and they can last for months, of delirious paranoid nightmarish shit, like one loooooong drawn out anticholinergic poisoning with a real nasty dose of GBL and opioid withdrawal lumped together, expect to need either in patient treatment, and a significant other who is amongst the kindest women on earth.

I wouldn't have lived through it without lots of both, in fact I very nearly didn't.

Although caution admonished suitably, it is a fucking blast of a drug, and a neat thing to be able to lay claim to as part of a drug glutton's lil suitcase of goodies, but it will skullfuck you something hideous if you abuse it, possibly for many years.

Pure, crystalline oblivion, synthesised from the adrenochrome and pitutary gland of the devil himself, of the 'azathoth' blind idiot god variety.
 
From what I understand, Veronal was being developed at the beginning of what we know today as the prescription drug system and pharmaceutical industry. A study was done shortly after the introduction of this system, about Veronal addicts.

I started a thread in another forum about making Veronal from scratch the way it was developed originally; you know, horse piss and rotten apples for the Barbituric Acid, etc ;)

VERONAL, in medicine, diethylmalonyl urea or diethylbarbituric acid (C 2 H 5) 2 C[CO NH] 2 CO, extensively used as a hypnotic. It is prepared by condensing diethylmalonic ester with urea in the presence of sodium ethylate, or by acting with ethyl iodide on the silver salt of malonyl urea; it forms a white crystalline powder, which is odourless, and has a slightly bitter taste. Its introduction followed the investigations of Emil Fischer and J. v. Merling on the pharmacological properties of certain open and closed ureides. Led thereto by the impression that hypnotic action appears to be largely dependent on the presence of ethyl groups, they prepared diethylacetyl urea, diethylmalonyl urea, and dipropylmalonyl urea. All three were found to be hypnotics: the first was about equal in power to sulphonal, whilst the third was four times as powerful, but its use was attended by prolonged aftereffects. Veronal was found to be midway. It is best given in cachets (10 to 15 grains). As it does not affect the circulatory or respiratory systems, or temperature, it can be employed in many diseased conditions of the heart and lungs as well as in mental disturbances, acute alcoholism, morphinomania and kidney disease. If taken during a prolonged period it seems to lose its effect. A soluble salt of veronal has been introduced under the name of medinal. Although the toxicity of veronal is low, 135 grains having been taken in a single dose without serious results, the unreasonable consumption by persons suffering from insomnia has led to many deaths, and it has been suggested that the sale should be restricted by the Pharmacy Acts.
Click to expand...

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Veronal
 
AFAIK all of the 5,5-di-substituted-barbiturates are active in some shape or form.
 
Ahh, I suppose thats an interesting find I made then. Big ass bottle o' the stuff. I don't ever plan on taking barbiturates, yuck.
 
I quite liked the barbital, never remembered a hangover from it, doubtless had a load perhaps, but remember not one ;)
 
I've never had barbital, so I can't be sure that it would have a pheno/mephobarb like hangover...

I also found that taking barbs orally resulted in more of a hangover when compared to IV administration. A number of years back, I had a big bottle of "euthasol", which when IV'ed, did not result in a hang-over.

Do not IV barbs, and although I never had a problem (that I am aware of), this practice is particularly dangerous...
 
I don't use them anymore, after the research I've been reading on them for a few months, I'm still trying to recover from the way barbital did a number on me, and that was orally.
 
f13nd said:
Ahh, I suppose thats an interesting find I made then. Big ass bottle o' the stuff. I don't ever plan on taking barbiturates, yuck.
Click to expand...

As in a big ass older reagent bottle in a lab maybe? I've seen a huge jar in an analytical lab. I think I used to know some specific method it was used in, but I've forgotten more stuff than most people will ever know. :p;)

I know it was commonly used in certain buffers and there is probably some specific old school wet analytical method it was useful for. Find an old copy of a Merck, or look at some older qualitative/quantitative textbooks and I'm sure you'll find references to it's use as an analytical reagent.
 
retired_chemist said:
As in a big ass older reagent bottle in a lab maybe? I've seen a huge jar in an analytical lab. I think I used to know some specific method it was used in, but I've forgotten more stuff than most people will ever know. :p;)

I know it was commonly used in certain buffers and there is probably some specific old school wet analytical method it was useful for. Find an old copy of a Merck, or look at some older qualitative/quantitative textbooks and I'm sure you'll find references to it's use as an analytical reagent.
Click to expand...

That may just be where its origin. Without any tinkering, would it be safe to give dosages of this to my dog betsy, she has epilepsy :\ Otherwise, I'm pretty sure I could do some other methods to make it effective so that I can analyze the efficacy of this compound as a treatment
 
f13nd said:
That may just be where its origin. Without any tinkering, would it be safe to give dosages of this to my dog betsy, she has epilepsy :\ Otherwise, I'm pretty sure I could do some other methods to make it effective so that I can analyze the efficacy of this compound as a treatment
Click to expand...

It's one thing for an enterprising young grad student who's funding/research program is "challenged" and that student supplements their program with useful, albeit old reagents that might be "acquired" from your basic university stockroom, with, suppose for sake of hypotheticals, a big jar of a coupla kilos of piperonal and a 500 mL bottle of nitrotehane. In that case a purely research oriented protocol would start with the whole usual jazz of "Reagent grade Nitroethane was distilled immediatley before use, and reagent grade piperonal was recrystallized by .... " followed by a multi step synthesis and workups at each stage.

That is one thing.

You are talking about something totally different. I strongly suggest just based on the compound itself you do exactly what I did upon finding a similar "big ass ol jar", in the course of looking for reagents I needed on a limited budget and just leave it on the shelf.

If you absolutely cannot resist the temptation, muster up the will and resist anyway. There is no telling what kind of spatulas have been stuck in that jar, and a lotta grad students are really sloppy. KCN is also a common reagent found in analytical labs for among other things, titrating water hardness.

Is it really worth it?

At minimum, you can easily find recrystallization systems for this compound on your own, and I would say hypothetical, a large number would be prudent.

But seriously, let's be genuinely prudent and forget hypotheticals.

Just say no.
 
enterprising young grad student who's funding/research program is "challenged" and that student supplements their program with useful, albeit old reagents that might be "acquired" from your basic university stockroom, with, suppose for sake of hypotheticals, a big jar of a coupla kilos of piperonal and a 500 mL bottle of nitrotehane.
Click to expand...

I knew there was a reason I liked enterprising young grad students...
 
It is probably not the resource it used to be.

When I was in school they were really just starting to get picky about the generally chaotic nature of most research labs. So the faculty would generally respond to that by "donating" reagents that had been sitting on shelves for decades to the general chem lab stockrooms instead of having to dip into their funding to get the stuff disposed of properly.

All kinds of goodies got just kinda dumped, and some pretty scary stuff too. Beside that big jar of piperonal was a small jar of picric acid that had a label on it that was obviously from pre-World War II. About half heavy yellow crystalls and half a clear layer of liquid above them. I did not feel tempted to shake it up, lol.

I would guess nowadays pretty much all that stuff was cleaned out long ago.

Just glad I could do my part to help tidy things up. %)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top