Did psychedelics reinforce or change your religious thoughts?

[cannabis sativa]

You weren;t merely giving us your personal experiences. In fact, just a few posts ago, you said, "I'm saying that if you choose to live a druggie lifestyle, this will take you further and further away from God, and cloud your mind from the truth." To me, that sounded like advice to us, coming from you. And I said, that with only a week being sober, I don't think you're in any position to be giving us tips. And what is this truth that you speak of? How did you manage to hold on to your faith while being a junkie?

i agree a week isnt long enough but his opinion may still have some validity. when you think about it arent drugs like the very definition of evil? they hurt you but they make you feel good. its just like making a deal with the devil, he tempts you with his wonderful pleasure but later on you end up worse off than you were before. i am a buddhist and i have found drugs can hinder your progress toward
buddha nature. the reasons are obvious, not only are you hurting your body but you are looking for something outside you to change your conciousness. the whole point of buddhism is that you have everything you need inside you at every moment. looking for pleasure through drugs leads to craving and discontentment. if contentment is a state where you are free from desire it is counterproductive to take drugs to feel this way because this will only lead to desire for more drugs.

as for psychedelics on shrooms i have reached a state of conciousness which would probably be described as demonic possesion in christianity. i do believe psychedelics can give you valid spiritual insights but i also believe they can cause psychological harm.

 

[Grim]

i agree a week isnt long enough but his opinion may still have some validity. when you think about it arent drugs like the very definition of evil? they hurt you but they make you feel good. its just like making a deal with the devil, he tempts you with his wonderful pleasure but later on you end up worse off than you were before. i am a buddhist and i have found drugs can hinder your progress toward

No, because drugs don't hurt people. Stupid people hurt themselves because they are irresponsible. By the same logic you can say that cars are evil because they kill people and that would simply fucking prepostorous. I have been using drugs for a number of years and I do not think they hurt me in any way. I have always been to do them in moderation and I do not have any negative results or regrets. So, the people who blame drugs are simply too weak to be in control of their own lives, so they find something to blame. And for all the people who bitch about this regularly.....if you can't handle your shit then don't do it or shut the fuck up.

 

[cannabis sativa]

actually drugs do hurt your body whether you admit or not. the very fact that alcohol makes you feel good while at the same time poisoning you should make it clear why drugs are considered of the devil in the christian tradition. of course if you use them in moderation your body will heal faster than it is being harmed and there wont be any negative affects but the potential for addiction or accident due to being under the influence is always there. comparing them to cars is a false analogy because cars do not harm your body or leave you out of control of your mind. you could drive a car every day your whole life and as long as you didnt get in an accident there would be no harm done to your body but if you use drugs every day for your entire life i guarantee there will be harm done to the body.

 

[Christian Soldier]

So don't be drunk. Why not use everything else, and just limit yourself to a beer or two?

You miss the point. Getting drunk or getting high, it's all the same. Be filled with the Holy Spirit instead of being filled with drugs.

i agree a week isnt long enough but his opinion may still have some validity. when you think about it arent drugs like the very definition of evil? they hurt you but they make you feel good. its just like making a deal with the devil, he tempts you with his wonderful pleasure but later on you end up worse off than you were before. i am a buddhist and i have found drugs can hinder your progress toward buddha nature. the reasons are obvious, not only are you hurting your body but you are looking for something outside you to change your conciousness. the whole point of buddhism is that you have everything you need inside you at every moment. looking for pleasure through drugs leads to craving and discontentment. if contentment is a state where you are free from desire it is counterproductive to take drugs to feel this way because this will only lead to desire for more drugs.

as for psychedelics on shrooms i have reached a state of conciousness which would probably be described as demonic possesion in christianity. i do believe psychedelics can give you valid spiritual insights but i also believe they can cause psychological harm.

Thanks, that helped clarify some of my own thoughts on the matter. I very much agree with your main points.

Would you mind talking more about these states that could be described as demonic possesion? I find these things very interesting.

 

[-PSychiK-]

Christian Soldier i think its a good thing you have stopped drug use.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Thanks

 

[lostpunk5545]

The few times I have used LSD my thoughts on Religion have not been changed one iota.

I'm still an atheist, and it doesn't seem to me so far that the use of psychedelics is going to change that.

I'd even put forward the notion that people who suddenly become religious after the use of psychedelics have always had doubts about where their beliefs have lain, or have just plain fried their brains from overindulgence.

Acid didn't even reinforce my beliefs, as they have been fairly complete for me in the last few years.

However as I'm reading the Origin of Species at the moment by Darwin, I did enjoy on my latest trip thinking about the struggle of life...

 

[cannabis sativa]

"Would you mind talking more about these states that could be described as demonic possesion? I find these things very interesting."

i felt like i wasn't myself anymore and instead i had been filled with with evil. i understood the state of conciousness that would lead people to commit horrific evil acts. taking pleasure from causing suffering to others.

i'd like to note for the scientific minded people reading this, i'm not saying demons, evil spirits or the devil exist literally externally to us (although they may) but they definitely exist as aspects of our own conciousness.

 

[cannabis sativa]

The few times I have used LSD my thoughts on Religion have not been changed one iota.

I'm still an atheist, and it doesn't seem to me so far that the use of psychedelics is going to change that.

I'd even put forward the notion that people who suddenly become religious after the use of psychedelics have always had doubts about where their beliefs have lain, or have just plain fried their brains from overindulgence.

Acid didn't even reinforce my beliefs, as they have been fairly complete for me in the last few years.

However as I'm reading the Origin of Species at the moment by Darwin, I did enjoy on my latest trip thinking about the struggle of life...

have you had a mystical experience as defined here http://www.psychedelic-library.org/pahnke3.htm? my thoery is that its not a simply a psychedelic experience that will change religious beleifs but a mystical experience which may occur during a psychedelic experience but doesn't have to. i used to be an athiest and i remained an athiest after i tried psychedelics, after using them a little more i experienced ego loss and i realized conciousness could exist without any seperate "I" claiming ownership of the conciousness. this is imo is the bases for all relgious beleifs.

 

[elemenohpee]

when you think about it arent drugs like the very definition of evil? they hurt you but they make you feel good. its just like making a deal with the devil, he tempts you with his wonderful pleasure but later on you end up worse off than you were before. i am a buddhist and i have found drugs can hinder your progress toward
buddha nature. the reasons are obvious, not only are you hurting your body but you are looking for something outside you to change your conciousness. the whole point of buddhism is that you have everything you need inside you at every moment.

Everything you need is inside of you from the moment you're born? Bullshit. This is flat out ridiculous. Almost everything that shapes you as a person is an outside influence. Even if we were to say that all the ideas you needed were in your mind already, this doesn;t mean that you would have acess to them. Your brain works under very tight constraints. What's wrong with taking a substance that unlocks a new way of thinking? Not to mention things like love that would be impossible without another person outside of you. Believing that all you need is yourself would lead to a very lonely life.
You may be able to argue that drugs like heroin that provide pure pleasure are hazardous for a person to indulge in, but you cannot call an inanimate object evil. Besides, psychedelic drugs aren't only used to provide pleasure, they are used to explore the mind (or at least they can be, if used properly.) I have certainly been better off for my drug use, don;t generalize and say that all drug use will land a person in a bad situation.

 

[cannabis sativa]

Everything you need is inside of you from the moment you're born? Bullshit. This is flat out ridiculous. Almost everything that shapes you as a person is an outside influence. Even if we were to say that all the ideas you needed were in your mind already, this doesn;t mean that you would have acess to them. Your brain works under very tight constraints. What's wrong with taking a substance that unlocks a new way of thinking? Not to mention things like love that would be impossible without another person outside of you. Believing that all you need is yourself would lead to a very lonely life.
You may be able to argue that drugs like heroin that provide pure pleasure are hazardous for a person to indulge in, but you cannot call an inanimate object evil. Besides, psychedelic drugs aren't only used to provide pleasure, they are used to explore the mind (or at least they can be, if used properly.) I have certainly been better off for my drug use, don;t generalize and say that all drug use will land a person in a bad situation.

i never did say that all drug use will land someone in a bad situation (in fact i said the opposite) and i also feel psychedelic drugs have benefited me, i'm just explaining the buddhist perspective on drug use. you misunderstood what i meant about having everything you need inside you, what i mean is that you have everything you need for happiness inside you. of course as you go through life you will need to find food, to aquire knowledge, form relationships, etc, but you don't need to base your happiness on your failures and successes. instead you should have no ambition and then you are free to do your best at whatever you do without the fear and pain that come from attachtment to circumstances.

 

[Wise_Rabbit]

oh... change and strengthen, completely, for me, the first time i had mushrooms, i havnt tryed acid, it was as thought the world stopped and noticed me and i noticed it back...

almost as if the universe suddenly found me incredably interesting and started really paying attention to me, like everything was saying hello in the way it all moved (i was in a field) and i in return suddenly understood and saw the beauty in all life every little blade of grass had its own personality and every tree, and i was somehow tuned in to it all and evry entity was like 'yes were here too' letting me know in there own special ways. now i can see it all the time all around me, it just depends on how u choose to 'look' at stuff. like you can really feel the presence of a tree as aposed to a building that has no 'energy' its just dead material, but all life has a kind of 'energy' that you cant really see you just have to kind of let your self know its there, or let it show u its there, and once you know u know. as they say 'the only true remedy for ignorance is knowledge' let the world around you teach you about its self... its eager, for very few listen, or know how to. so to answer your question, yes both changed and strengthened my religious beliefes, as im an agnostic the world 'is' alive there is no god head, but the collective spirituality of all that lives that in return creates life, like a devine catch 22, not 1 creating the the other but both in perfect ballance, we create the greater spirituality by us all being here and were only able to be here because of this higher spirit that we all acumulate as being.

i believe psychadelics as gateways to alternate consiances/ realities/ perspectives/ some really some a creation of your own ideals, but all infinatly knowledgable and all deffinatly a learning experiance to go through.

what do you all think? be gentle please...

......Wise_Rabbit......

:D

 

[elemenohpee]

I still don;t understand what you mean sativa. If you mean that all the neural circuits required for happiness are inside of you then I would agree. But this alone does not equal happiness. You need to clarify what you mean by losing all ambition. This contradicts the next part of your sentance which says that this leaves you free to do whatever you do. With no ambition, you wouldn;t be doing anything, correct? It seems like you're definition of happiness is a loss of humanity. And while ignorance is bliss, I'm personally much happier being human.

And you did say that all drug use is detrimental:

Originally posted by cannabis sativa
its just like making a deal with the devil, he tempts you with his wonderful pleasure but later on you end up worse off than you were before.

This is only the most striking example, go back and read your posts for more.

 

[cannabis sativa]

no, you can actually do things better with no ambition. here's a link explanation non action http://shlomoaronovitz.blogspot.com/2005/01/practical-taoism-non-action-empty-mind.html

in buddhism its called buddha nature. its finding peace through freedom from desire and thus letting action complete itself (because you have no attachment to it). it is the same as the peace you experience in deep sleep or when fully engaged in activity that requires all your attention. athletes call it being "in the zone". rather than loss of humanity i would consider it the pinnacle of human potential, unless being human means being irrational and unsatisfied. the peace im talking about is the same thing drug addicts seek when they take drugs. when they are sober there are desires and thus unhappiness but when they are high they experience freedom from their desires and thus happiness.

i did not say all drug use is detrimental, even in your example i do not say "all". thats just the classic example of drug addiction. when you take a drug you are putting your body out of sinc at least a little bit, yet drug use is extremely reinforcing. something that reinforces you to harm yourself is obviously going to be a problem for certain people. it doesn't mean everyone who takes a drug will become addicted but by taking drugs you are headed in that direction.

 

[elemenohpee]

I guess we need to define what drugs we're talking about here. I certainly don;t expereince a freedom from desire in my drug use, probably because I don't use strictly pleasure drugs such as opiates. I find great happiness in thinking about the human experience, discovering something beautiful in nature, or finding something out about myself through introspection. My desire to learn new things and create artwork does not cause me unhappiness. If you think that the pinnacle of human experience is a thoughtless memorization of muscle memories required for an athlete to excel at a sport, then I guess I can;t really argue with you. But I doubt if any of the achievements of mankind would have happened if everyone subscribed to you're thought that inaction leads to happiness.

I don;t have time to argue with you about what your statements meant. The "all" was implied. You didn't say anything to suggest any other options. And not all drug use will put your body out of sync.

 

[Grim]

no, you can actually do things better with no ambition. here's a link explanation non action http://shlomoaronovitz.blogspot.com/2005/01/practical-taoism-non-action-empty-mind.html

in buddhism its called buddha nature. its finding peace through freedom from desire and thus letting action complete itself (because you have no attachment to it). it is the same as the peace you experience in deep sleep or when fully engaged in activity that requires all your attention. athletes call it being "in the zone". rather than loss of humanity i would consider it the pinnacle of human potential, unless being human means being irrational and unsatisfied. the peace im talking about is the same thing drug addicts seek when they take drugs. when they are sober there are desires and thus unhappiness but when they are high they experience freedom from their desires and thus happiness.

That sounds more like Theravada Buddhism though. A complete detachment is not easily achieved. Sure certain monks who meditate constantly can do it, but for the rest of us it is not a practical way of going through life. I think Mahayana Buddhism is a bit easier to adapt as a belief structure since it focuses more on compassion to others. Correct me if I am wrong, hehe this is all coming back from the time I took a class on Non-Western philosophy so I might be wrong on something.

 

[cannabis sativa]

I guess we need to define what drugs we're talking about here. I certainly don;t expereince a freedom from desire in my drug use, probably because I don't use strictly pleasure drugs such as opiates. I find great happiness in thinking about the human experience, discovering something beautiful in nature, or finding something out about myself through introspection. My desire to learn new things and create artwork does not cause me unhappiness. If you think that the pinnacle of human experience is a thoughtless memorization of muscle memories required for an athlete to excel at a sport, then I guess I can;t really argue with you. But I doubt if any of the achievements of mankind would have happened if everyone subscribed to you're thought that inaction leads to happiness.

I don;t have time to argue with you about what your statements meant. The "all" was implied. You didn't say anything to suggest any other options. And not all drug use will put your body out of sync.

the athlete is just one example, its not limited to muscle memory. any work you do is done better if you focus on doing it rather than thinking ahead to getting it finished. that is what is meant by non action. for example as i type this post if i clear my mind and allow the words to flow naturally i have a much easier time than if i allow myself to get caught up in a maze of other thoughts.

as for drugs i honestly did not mean all, nor did i intend to imply it. obviously psychedelic drugs do not fit the addiction model i presented. i consider the dangers of psychedelic drugs to be of a different nature.

 

[cannabis sativa]

That sounds more like Theravada Buddhism though. A complete detachment is not easily achieved. Sure certain monks who meditate constantly can do it, but for the rest of us it is not a practical way of going through life. I think Mahayana Buddhism is a bit easier to adapt as a belief structure since it focuses more on compassion to others. Correct me if I am wrong, hehe this is all coming back from the time I took a class on Non-Western philosophy so I might be wrong on something.

either way both forms discourage the use of drugs.

 

[DarthMom]

I won't even begin to get into the specifics and details of my experiences, just suffice it to say the love and contentment that I feel is beyond words. I do have a theory though that you do let in what you "invite" and those that experience the "devil" probably need to look at their life and not the drugs as a cause.

it's not what goes into a person, it's what comes out. (wonder who said that)

Enlitx; what are you talking about? Did I say that if you snort a line of coke you will go and rape a women? I'm saying that if you choose to live a druggie lifestyle, this will take you further and further away from God, and cloud your mind from the truth.

I was at my most spiritual, most happy and had the best life when I was doing more than I am now. My depression, and bouts of worthlessness and hopelessness come back when I don't have my little "self therapy sessions". So, I strongy disagree with you.

if theres one thing annoying about a christian its a christian that uses bible quotes instead of his own words....

Just dont' forget, "even the devil can use scripture to suit his needs"

ah almas (sp?

 

[bong head]

well using psychedelics now and then isn't necessarily a "druggie lifestyle" and i do believe psychedelics can help you to reach a higher state of conciousness but if you unable to stay there what is the use?