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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Did I fuck up my suboxone induction

shartito

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 11, 2017
Messages
448
I have a sub induction appointment tomorrow morning. It will have been 36 hours since my last heroin usage when I arrive at the doctor.

I'm at 16 hours in right now. Normally I would be feeling like ass at this point. However, since I needed to be functional today, I've done the following:

Stacking 300mg gabapentin every 30-45 minutes
20 mg loperamde
10 g kratom

My early withdrawal symptoms are pretty much non-existent at this point. Which is great, but..

Now I'm wondering if I'm messing up my waiting period, to avoid precipitated WD's... specifically since the lope and the kratom are tickling the opioid receptors.. will my 36 hours since heroin be enough?
 
I think youll be okay as long as there is still one sleep between now and when you get your subs. dont take anything else opioid though.
 
I think youll be okay as long as there is still one sleep between now and when you get your subs. dont take anything else opioid though.

Thanks for your input. No more lope or kratom from this point on. Hopefully I’ll get to the doctor a mess, in full WD. It will be a rough morning.
 
This is a tough one Sharito. I know you don't need anybody to patronize you at this point, so I won't. For our purposes, Loperamide is an Opioid (it is). Mitragynine is also. They both have an effect on your body's Opioid receptors that could end up causing a case of precipitated withdrawal for you. There's really no telling at this point, but I don't think you've done anything insane as far as setting your tolerance back. Just rely heavily on the Gabapentin and don't use any more Opioids!

Nobody wants to end up in PW, so it's always best to err on the side of caution, but given your dosages and the timeframe discussed, I'm willing to bet that you will be fine to induct on Buprenorphine. Everybody is different obviously, but based upon my experience, I'm confident that, at worst, you might experience some discomfort, but I really doubt that you'll go through a full PW syndrome.
 
Thanks keif. And I probably deserve to be patronized. I’m a fucking moron. I know better than this...

Anyway, on the plus side I’m already back in WD. I should be good in 15 hours.
 
We all do stupid shit when we have an addiction. Stupid shit doesn't always mean stupid person. Especially when addictions involved.

As others have already covered, precipitated withdrawal is caused when Opioids on your receptors are replaced by buprenorphine.

Masking withdrawals with non opioid drugs shouldn't increase your risk of precipitated withdrawal. But it will make it harder to assess how likely you are to experience it because it'll likely make the COWS scale more unreliable.

For you unless I missed something the big concern is the loperamide. It is an opioid and so it would likely increase your chances of experiencing precipitated withdrawal.

But there's no point beating yourself up over what's already done. There's no way to know if you'll experience it or not. As with so many things related to withdrawal, it's extremely hard to ever be completely sure what will happen. So much of it is subjective and so much of what's not is influenced by so many different factors.

I wish you luck. Kinda makes me glad I'm on methadone rather than subuxone. But honestly that's probably not rational of me. I tend to think which one you should be on all depends on how much you use. If your habit isn't that large methadone tends to cause you to feel zombieish. Or so I'm told. My habit was likely way too high to make subuxone a sensible choice. So I guess there's pros and cons as with anything but my paralyzing fear of withdrawal sure makes descriptions of precipitated withdrawal something I can't help but be glad I never had to worry about. Not yet anyway.

Good luck man.
 
Thanks.

I’m at the pharmacy waiting for my script. Then I go back to doctor to induce. I’m pretty confident I’m fine. I feel like a pile of shit right now. I took COWS myself (doc didn’t give it to me, she just looked at me and knew I was ready) and got a 25.

Edit - I’m now inducted. 8mg. No precipitated withdrawal. I feel amazing. I feel “normal”. I feel like myself. I feel like crying. This will save my life, at the most, and my family at the least. I may be on subs forever, but at least it’s not heroin. Although expensive, I’m still saving so much money. And it’s worth the expense.
 
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Best wishes dude, glad you're feeling better.

Thought it was interesting that you were given the script, then had to go back to take it on front of the doctor I guess? Was that so they could guage the effects of the dosage or what? Never heard of anyone doing that (nor did I have to).
 
The system varies a lot from place to place. I've been surprised by how different things can be just within the different states of Australia here. Where generally the states are far more uniform than they are in America. Yet this sort of thing can still vary tremendously.

Makes it hard to take it seriously when doctors tell you shit like "this is the way the rules are for a good reason and any other way would be irresponsible" when often they ARE doing it another way about a day's drive in almost any direction.
 
It seemed a little weird to me too. The first script was only for 4 strips. I guess she doesn’t keep it in her office since it’s an opioid.I’ve heard other stories where people go in for their first appointment and the subs are waiting for them.

Bonus was... she initially told me that it was a weekly appointment and weekly script. But today, when I went back for my follow up and first “real” script, she wrote it for 30 days, and said she’d see me in a month. Score!

Still pretty happy about it all. Ecstatic, actually. I’m probably in a honeymoon phase. But my outlook on life has greatly improved.
 
Thanks Keif.

On another, unrelated note...

I don’t know a whole lot of addicts who are truly in love with their lifestyle, and who would turn down easily accessible buprenorphine.

Our culture, in the US at least, talks a lot about treatment accessibility being important, yet I didn’t find it very accessible.

I’m not tooting my own horn here, but I’m a fortunate citizen with means. Basically I was lucky and built a life and career for myself before addiction. While addiction destroyed a lot of the foundation I laid for myself, the foundation still flimsily held. So I had means. Insurance. Money. And it was not easy for me. It took a lot of time, effort, waiting, and of course the money. This place didn’t even take insurance, it was private pay only.

All that to say, if someone as fortunate as me had to jump through some hoops to get treatment, how difficult are we making this for those not as fortunate as me?

There isn’t really an answer to that question. Just ranting a little, off topic. This country says we care about treating the problem, and a lot of people genuinely do care. But, I’m not sure the reality matches the lip-service.
 
Thanks Keif.

On another, unrelated note...

I don’t know a whole lot of addicts who are truly in love with their lifestyle, and who would turn down easily accessible buprenorphine.

Our culture, in the US at least, talks a lot about treatment accessibility being important, yet I didn’t find it very accessible.

I’m not tooting my own horn here, but I’m a fortunate citizen with means. Basically I was lucky and built a life and career for myself before addiction. While addiction destroyed a lot of the foundation I laid for myself, the foundation still flimsily held. So I had means. Insurance. Money. And it was not easy for me. It took a lot of time, effort, waiting, and of course the money. This place didn’t even take insurance, it was private pay only.

All that to say, if someone as fortunate as me had to jump through some hoops to get treatment, how difficult are we making this for those not as fortunate as me?

There isn’t really an answer to that question. Just ranting a little, off topic. This country says we care about treating the problem, and a lot of people genuinely do care. But, I’m not sure the reality matches the lip-service.

Indeed. Its often a whole lot worse for those of us who have no money left by the time we try and get help.

Here in Australia, at least in Sydney it's probably better than most places. If you go through the public system methadone and subuxone is totally free. Still a hassle and there are other problems but it can be done with no money at all.

But it's less easy in other parts of the country. I'm currently in Queensland and where I am for the moment the public system is simply too overloaded to be very feasible. So if you're a junkie here you'll have a lot more trouble. It still doesn't cost "that" much. But it does cost. And even the private system is still a bit overloaded.

A friend of mine in Virginia, a lot of the problems they had was because it just wasn't feasible to get on subuxone with the cost. People who don't know any better, doctors mainly. They often talk about how easy it is but they don't get it.

If you're on heroin, you need a constant supply of money to keep from getting sick. Often the amount of money you get matches how much you use cause your habit scales to your maximum means. But that often means you have no room for anything else. You're just not willing to spend even a small amount if it means you'll have to be sick for even a short period of time.

I've found the so called experts really have no clue what it's like. Being around junkies all the time doesn't mean you truly understand what it's like to be one.
 
In the US, suboxone is the more upscale, chic treatment option. Usually dispensed by psychiatrists in posh offices.

Methadone is the more traditional junkie culture treatment option. It’s definitely more affordable than bupe, but is it more accessible?

So one done clinic I know of will give you your cup of liquid like clockwork every day, for a nominal fee. IF you’re there by 7AM.

So, since I crossed the line from pharms into heroin a year ago, I’d say 10% or less of the hardcore addicts I met had reliable transportation. For the other 90% that leaves the bus. Our bus system is pretty well regarded, I believe, but a 10 minute drive still takes over an hour and a half. That’s just the nature of public transportation. So we’re talking a 3-4 hour time commitment daily just to fucking get there and back. And getting there by 7AM? Literally impossible for many.

That’s not even taking into consideration those who have jobs. Jobs don’t work around methadone clinic hours.

So while methadone is definitely more easily accessible in a financial aspect, in a “real life” aspect it can be just as difficult to obtain.

Again, I don’t know a lot of addicts who would turn down either. Getting them is another story.
 
Absolutely. It's not that different here in that regard. Frustratingly I've had my methadone clinic ask me if I knew anyone with a car when I had transport problems and I had to tell them repeatedly that no, I WAS the friend who had a car. So when I didn't anymore that left no car options at all. None of my junkie friends had cars either. Strictly speaking I didn't have a car either I had access to my boyfriends car.

Anyway, making it on time was repeatedly problematic when I was on methadone in Sydney. For some time my only option was to take an hour or so walking or using the bus.

Which is what I mean when I say they often just don't get how hard it can be. Me and a lot of other heroin addicts I knew, by the time it had gotten that bad we had pretty much nothing left. No car, no stable housing and at times no housing at all, no ID. We'd often take public transport without a ticket cause we didn't have money for that either. We would have if we didn't always use every cent we had on heroin, but we usually did.

I've never been on buprenorphine so it's a little hard for me to say, but from what I've seen here it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Except that in some of the country you can get a script and take a bottle of bup home with you. Didn't see it in Sydney but I've heard of it in other parts of the country. Whereas methadone takeaways are strictly controlled.

I never got any takeaways ever while I was still using. But that's hardly surprising. I'll say this they were pretty tolerant all things considered. I was still kept on methadone there for 2 years despite missing probably 30-40% of my doses, averaging missing one day every other day. And not once in that time did I ever come back clean on my monthly drug tests.

Positive for heroin at the very least every single time without fail. Not even counting all the times when I came back positive for benzos or meth or pot or whatever on top of that.

They threatened me with getting kicked off all the time but they never actually did it.
 
I'm guessing people have a lot of questions regarding how this stuff works, so I thought I might type up a quick little blurb regarding how I understand these maintenance programs to work.

I cannot truly speak to the functionality of the Australian system. I have limited knowledge regarding the systems in place in the UK and a slightly better understanding of what goes on on the continent, as I have more friends there that I speak with. At any rate, it's safe to assume that uniformity is not the rule in place in practically any of these locales. Ironically, it seems that there is more uniformity in law and treatment standards from country to country on the continent than between states here in the US or even provinces in Australia. Addiction treatment as a right has arrived pretty late to the party. It's only just recently that moral opinion has begun to shift in our favor and even that is happening quite slowly.

The United States has clinics operated by the state/county/city etc. and those operated by corporations/private owners. For instance, Mitt Romney's (Republican Senator from Massachusetts, former R-Presidential Candidate) Bain Capital owned a series of corporate shell companies that in turn operated a series of well-populated Methadone clinics in Greater Boston. The speed at which addiction rates have climbed in the past 20 years had led to a severe glut in the few private clinics in the state. For-pay was the only route for many folks. In the past 5 or so years, at least here in New England, we've seen a normalizing of the process.

Clinics in the United States have some leeway in how they prescribe, but in theory and practice, all of their behavior must exist within the guidelines of the Federal Government. The feds watch pretty closely, but that didn't stop me from crying my way into 6 take-home doses per week after only 2.5 months of treatment. It can be done, but you need to have a good, convincing story, as that story will in all likelihood end up at the desk of some DEA scumbag, who will decide whether it's credible or not. In general, clinics operate upon these guidelines in the United States.

3 months of completely clean urinalyses, 1-2, but probably 1 take home dose of Methadone
6 months of completely clean urinalyses, 2-3 take home doses of Methadone
9 months of completely clean urinalyses, 3-5 take home doses of Methadone
12 month of completely clean urinalyses, 6 take home doses of Methadone
12 months/1 year of completely clean urinlayses in essence, means you come to the clinic once per week to pick up 6 daily doses of Methadone

In the United States, Buprenorphine can be prescribed outright for the purpose of addiction maintenance, but it's not typical for a severely addicted, poly-drug user to walk out of a prescriber's office with a month's worth of Buprenorphine. That just wouldn't make sense. That would be like throwing money after money, but I'm not saying it never happens. In general, they like to make sure people have at least even a small, infinitesimal shred of sobriety before giving them a month's worth of Opioids. So, many folks begin their Buprenorphine at one of our regions lovingly-appointed Methadone/Bupe clinics. The timeframe of which is notedly much less severe than with Methadone, a bottle of which, to be fair, is like handing a loaded shotgun to an infant. If anyone wants to hear a funny story about teenager's breaking into a Methadone clinic in my hometown in the early 00's and subsequently dying in their homes that same night, send me a private message :).

Treatment in the United States with anything other than Buprenorphine w/ Naloxone is rare and is typically only prescribed to pregnant women or those who can demonstrate a great need for it.

As previously stated, there are much less restrictions upon Buprenorphine prescribing, so you can expect a much greater variation in these guidelines than with Methadone.

1 month of daily attendance with at least 2 clean urinalyses: 1 week's worth of Buprenorphine w/ Naloxone (Suboxone): Weekly prescriptions for Suboxone.

3 months of daily attendance with clean urinalyses throughout: Golden Ticket to a doctor's office, monthly UA's and monthly prescriptions picked up at a normal pharmacy

I just thought that this might be helpful, as it seems many are curious as to how the process works. I think making the outlook a little bit less vague could help push some folks with anxiety over the process into maintenance a little bit faster.
 
I hope I didn’t come across as discouraging it. Although a novice to the treatment game, I’m a HUGE fan so far. Such a fan, that I just wish it was easier for all to obtain. But it’s worth the effort, time and hoops jumped through.
 
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Hi Shartito,
i think 36 hours will be enough if you was using heroin.
I went from methadone to subutex last year. At first i did 26 hours from the last time i took methadone and couldn't bare it anymore so took 2mg of subutex, WOW i went straight into precipitated WD's , what a night, i gave in and scored some H early the next morning.
Later that night i tried again but this time i was prepared. from smoking the H , i went 12 hours then took 600mg pregablin.The pregabs stopped all withdrawals and i took my first subutex after 56 hours after smoking the H! Smoking some nice fruity bud made it even better!

Pregablin is great for the period of waiting to change from one opiate to subutex just like the gabapentin you using.

Keep your head up, soon you will be comfortable on your subutex..good luck!!!!
 
Thanks for the kind words Ta Zat :)

Just out of curiosity, are you still on the buprenorphine? If so, have you attempted, or do you plan, to try and taper off?
 
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