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Need Help Definitive List of Comfort Meds for Opiate Detox/ log of fent detox.

If this about cold turkeying fent....all other less potent Opies for a while are option(and gradually tapperings)....lyrica is ok...idk nothing about clonidine.never tried. Have been quit cold turkey fent two times...i hope there wouldn't be a third time....ibogaine microdosing helps after acute withdrawl....somehow make balance in Ur brain and also got some mu receptor agonist action.....even small,but present.
 
Guys, please suggest something for chronic fatigue caused by opioids. I feel fine until noon, but after work, I become so lethargic that I have no energy for anything. My job is light, so it's not work-related fatigue. If I take, for example, 20 mg of tramadol, it all goes away, but I don't want to take it because it's just a vicious cycle.
So I can definitely speak on this, as can a lot of us probably. In my experience- yes, any type of opiate will cure that lethargy pretty completely. taking a less potent one is helpful in the sense that it helps you step down.

However- I've tried this method many times and I settled on just going CT because (for me at least)- each time I step down in dose it still majorly sucks. I'd prefer a week of hard WD rather then weeks of less intense, but still shitty WD. The lethargy is terrible though. I've felt it in the same way you're describing and also just from straight up PAWS. The problem with using ANY type of opiate in any sense after initial WD is that it just drags it out. Even with a couple weeks clean, I did a very small amount of fent and had intense lethargy for days after. Granted I wasn't sick- I could handle it, but getting into a cycle like this just gets old. And any symptom that persists long enough will bring me right back to ground zero.

So for actual things that help lethargy:
-There have been some great posts here about combating the lethargy that comes from dopamine deficiency mixed with poor sleep. I continued with a cocktail of (2g vitamin C + 2g Creatine Monohydrate + 750mg Agmatine) during WD any for several weeks afterward. This helped with WD in general but also kept me moving. It's not a cure all but it definitely helps beyond a placebo affect. There are some posts (maybe around page 3-4) from @alybenzene that describe the method of action here more.
-Caffeine in smaller amounts: I always tend to start drinking a lot more caffeine when newly clean to battle fatigue. I've found eventually it starts hurting me as I'm either yipped on caffeine or crashing from it. So, I have smaller amounts more often. And make sure you're having some type of sugar or carb beforehand, as the caffeine will drain your blood sugar and that doesnt help anything.
-B vitamins with water- yes, I never wanted to hear "just drink more water"... but seriously... people don't say it just to be annoying. It helps.
-Exercise: Again, not what anyone with fatigue wants to hear, but for me this was truly the MOST helpful thing. So much so that the nights following a small gym sesh I would sleep better, and within days my energy was drastically improving. I tried to do some light lifting or brisk walking in the evening. I'd save a dose of caffeine for this and just amp myself up before doing it. Sitting down with my shoes on, listening to music, drinking the caffeine, and then just doing it before I decide not to. Push through it. Again, I see this as one of the only true cures for lethargy other then improved sleep- which this helps with too.

My attitude on lethargy or really any PAWS symptom is that I'd rather just fight through it and be done! anything we take med or drug wise will only help in the short term- and we KNOW in most cases is going to continue the cycle in some regard. Again, this is my opinion through my experience.

On a side note- it doesn't help getting some bloods ran to check your hormone levels, as well as a plethora of other things that could be contributing to the lethargy as well! If you have a legit, measurable reason for the lethargy, at least you know what to fix. I wouldn't rely on vitamin C if my testosterone levels are tanked.
 
54 Days Clean!

Just checking in to update anyone who's interested, has followed along, or is going through it and could use some good news. Not much else to say in terms of an update other then that I'm deep into my 4th step. I've never stayed in AA long, and definitely didn't "do the deal" anytime I was jumping into it. So, it's not much to say but each day that goes by and the further I go in my steps definitely grows a confidence in me. Simply because I've told myself I'd do this so many times and never did it. Years of me "failing" or NOT doing what I promised myself I'd do definitely reinforced a bleak outlook.

Obviously, anything can happen at any time and I can fail in 10 minutes. But- as of this moment I'm feeling good about myself simply because I'm changing the routine here. Going into unknown territory. Paving a new path through this that I've never done. So, I'm hoping that I'll be back here in a week or two to update with some more good news.
 
Hi, friend. Have you managed to overcome that chronic fatigue yet?
Yes! I don't know when exactly, but it kind of phased out over a week or two around the 40-50 day mark. Granted it had been getting better before that, but once I started getting better sleep and had a few weeks back in the gym everything really fell into place.

Im currently at 72 days and feeling great. It's hard to say for sure but I'd say I felt substantially "normal" around 40-50 days. The fatigue was one of the lagging PAWS effects that I noticed. I really think the gym helped zap that away. Between some pre workout and a decent gym sesh I usually felt amazing right afterwards, and the feeling just kind of grew. From what I remember, this is a typical timeframe for me based on past detoxes. I think it's important to really stress that I wasn't completely "assed out" up until the point I felt better. It was a slow improvement where some days were great, and some were shit, but ultimately I was improving.

There was a lot of times in the last 72 days (not so much recently) where I had to remind myself to just chill out. I had to give myself a break and be ok with having lazy days or lowering my standards for what I hoped to get done. In the past I had always been in rehab where I pretty much just sat around for 90 days, and when I came out to the real world I was doing so with 90 days under my belt. Doing it at home this time kind of skewed my expectations. I had this idea that I'd go through 10 days of hell, then feel kind of bad for 10 days, then I'd just be totally good to go. That wasn't the case. I was by no means going through WD, but I was not feeling great. I work from home and had to shuffle my week around to make up for days where I really didn't do much. And I had to just get over it and not stress myself out trying to act like I was completely normal. I wasnt.
 
Well here I am again, continuing this thread. I made it to over 4 months an relapsed. So, aside from the "poor me" stuff, I am now detoxing and am at 84 hours (3.5 days).

This detox was from a much shorter run and didnt include any benzo withdrawal either. I'll get into the details more tomorrow when I have some more energy. Just wanted to report back. I'm following all the meds/ supps that were outlined here earlier and again- the detox sucks but is certainly not excruciating.

Ill report back soon. Tomorrow at 11am is DAY 4- 96 Hours
 
Update: 109 Hours (4.5 days)

I've been taking the same Rx Meds that I did 8 months ago:
my list of prescriptions for comfort meds:
-.1mg clonidine (30ct + 1 refill)
---I take one pill per dose
-25mg hydroxyzine (30ct + 1 refill)---I take one pill per dose
-5mg Valium (42 count)---- I take 1 OR 1.5 pills per dose
-4mg Tizanidine (21 count + refill)----I take 1/2 pill per dose (knocks me out too much)
-4mg zofran (12 count + 1 refill)----Havnet needed it, thank god.

Today, day 4, I experimented by cutting my midday dose in half. My symptoms spiked a little, but nothing I couldn't handle. So, knowing this is a great path toward weaning off these meds. They are immensely helpful, but knock me out too much. Im at the the point where I'm feeling "ok" enough at certain periods of the day, so taking meds for no reason to make fatigue worse doesnt make sense..

I of course am continuing my Vitamin C + BSO + Passionflower + Rhodiola regiment as well. And I really cant say enough about Vitamin C megadosing

2g sodium aspartate + 1g creatine monohydrate every two hours. I add 333mg agmatine sulfate to this am/midday/night
-Passionflower extract at am and pm
-BSO (10mg thymoquinone) 4x day spaced evenly
-Rhodoila with first meal
-1000mg L-Phenylalanine with my pre breakfast vitamin c drink, Then again later in the day with a b complex and 100mg caffeine.


RLS has been hit or miss, I acquired some gabapentin (which I really dont think does anything or me for detox) but it does help with rls at night- currently taking 400mg.

Tomorrow is day 5. Im going for my first walk and possibly VERY like workout if I can handle it. Some type of movement is needed. Will report back.
 
I would be cautious mixing clonidine and tizanidine as both are α2-adrenergic receptor agonists.

If you are prescribed both, I assume your clinician would know this and adjust dose if required. But I thought I would mention it just to be on the safe side.
 
I would be cautious mixing clonidine and tizanidine as both are α2-adrenergic receptor agonists.

If you are prescribed both, I assume your clinician would know this and adjust dose if required. But I thought I would mention it just to be on the safe side.
100%. I learned this once when the pharmacist told me “idc I’m not filling both”. I’ve since mentioned it to my doc and he’s an airhead and didn’t know what an alpha-2 adrenergic agonists were. (Really I was trying for baclofen lol)

I take my .1mg clonidine as needed (usually 5-6 hours). I don’t have any pain so I’ve only been using the tizanidine at night (2mg low dose). Plus when I take both, it drains me too much.
 
Are you aware that chlormezanone is still used in China (or was last time I looked).

It's an odd one. It was in the BNF as Trancopal™ for decades as a muscle-relaxant and as an anxiolytic. It's use was stopped when it was found to cause a rare but serious side-effect. The fact it took over 30 years for the association to be noted, I think it reasonable to suggest that increased incidence could only be spotted when truly huge cohorts were studied.

It's a little bit like chlormethiazole (Heminevin™) which although considered to be as potent as Seconal, never came under legal control. As far as I know chlormezanone isn't legally controlled anywhere and is not structurally similar to anything that is controlled.

Now if you are based in the US, I'm uncertain if even the CSA would cover it as to the best of my knowledge it was never a prescribable medicine so at the very worst I think seizure would take place (although given how much people pay for medicines in the US, I imagine a LOT of medicines are being bought from other nations).

I will never claim a medicine to be safe, only that clinicians always consider the risk/benefit ratio. I know from HR work that insomnia is very commonly the symptom that 'breaks' people attempting to stop using.

I just think mixing so many things could give rise to totally unpredictable interactions and if one medicine can replace 4, it MAY be the safer option. But to be clear - MAY. I leave it to you to read about it and being informed make the decision that is best for you.
 
Are you aware that chlormezanone is still used in China (or was last time I looked).

It's an odd one. It was in the BNF as Trancopal™ for decades as a muscle-relaxant and as an anxiolytic. It's use was stopped when it was found to cause a rare but serious side-effect. The fact it took over 30 years for the association to be noted, I think it reasonable to suggest that increased incidence could only be spotted when truly huge cohorts were studied.

It's a little bit like chlormethiazole (Heminevin™) which although considered to be as potent as Seconal, never came under legal control. As far as I know chlormezanone isn't legally controlled anywhere and is not structurally similar to anything that is controlled.

Now if you are based in the US, I'm uncertain if even the CSA would cover it as to the best of my knowledge it was never a prescribable medicine so at the very worst I think seizure would take place (although given how much people pay for medicines in the US, I imagine a LOT of medicines are being bought from other nations).

I will never claim a medicine to be safe, only that clinicians always consider the risk/benefit ratio. I know from HR work that insomnia is very commonly the symptom that 'breaks' people attempting to stop using.

I just think mixing so many things could give rise to totally unpredictable interactions and if one medicine can replace 4, it MAY be the safer option. But to be clear - MAY. I leave it to you to read about it and being informed make the decision that is best for you.
Well, with your general point of mixing all of these meds and possible complications I’m with you there, that’s why I’ve been trying to lower the doses by 75% to 50% starting day four and five (today).

Everything you mentioned is extremely interesting to me, but at this point, there’s just no way I would be able to acquire it other than through some research chemical site and even then by the time it got here I’d be weeks past the acute phase. But I am always interested in the uncommon drugs that never made it to the mainstream, but still have very specific uses, especially in short acute settings.

Either way, thanks for looking out. I’m with you where lack of sleep is the number one thing that takes me out. Luckily I have a prescription for Ambien, which does work really well for me. I usually sleep OK during acute withdrawals, but after that phase ends and I’m postacute that’s when the insomnia really kicks in. Last detox was more excruciating in the postacute phase because of no sleep, but once I got the Ambien my life turned around and things got better so much faster because I was sleeping.

And just for the record, I discontinued Ambien after about a week and was able to sleep decently. I definitely don’t want an addiction to sleep meds after kicking heroin and fentanyl 500 fucking times.
 
If this about cold turkeying fent....all other less potent Opies for a while are option(and gradually tapperings)....lyrica is ok...idk nothing about clonidine.never tried. Have been quit cold turkey fent two times...i hope there wouldn't be a third time....ibogaine microdosing helps after acute withdrawl....somehow make balance in Ur brain and also got some mu receptor agonist action.....even small,but present.
Late response, but here I am detoxing again. It seems gabapentin or Lyrica are hit or miss for people some people swear by them, myself I don’t really get much from them.

There’s also a lot of studies that say their dose dependent, that you need X amount in order to have an effect. If 900 mg is that amount, taking anything less than 900 would’ve essentially give you the same effect as taking zero so that’s something to think about I have been taking 400 mg at night to help with my restless legs but other than that, I’ve never found it to be helpful in detox.

Clonidine is the number one thing I would pick if I had to pick one medicine it lowers your blood pressure which helps lessen most of the other symptoms. It gets rid of hot and cold flashes, goosebumps, cold, sweats, and does a decent deal with anxiety.

But to each their own, I would at least consider clonidine though God forbid you ever have to go fill it again.
 
@Allylbenzene … hey I know you’ve described your opinions on tyrosine, D-phenylalanine, L-phenylalanine and DLPA before, clearly supporting the L- phenylalanine form.

Why is the D form a problem? I know I can handle dlpa without bad side effects, I have both dlpa and L - PA. Would it be bad to use both concomitantly, or rotate doses via am/pm, daily or E3d, etc?
 
I'm glad you saw sense when it came to using a Z-drug. They are extremely unpredictable if a person does NOT fall asleep or if someone is woken up while they are still acting. Retrograde and antiriorgrade amnesia, loss of executive control, ataxia, mood lability and so on. Hence so many of the rich and famous wreaking havoc on a commercial flight because they wrongly assume that the effects would estimate the benzodiazepines they were likely prescribed in years gone by.

I get it that benzodiazepine dependence was recognized and that something to replace them would be a potential 'blockbuster' but in truth, they bind the the benzodiazepine receptor subtype most associated with physical dependence! It seems that they are actually MORE hazardous.

I suspect the logic was they they don't feel pleasent so in theory nobody would abuse them - but we now see Z-drugs implicated in overdoses MORE than benzodiazepines. Poor quality gear or just someone with tolerance would mix in alcohol or other CNS depressants and in Peter McDermotts words 'either you would stop breathing or aspire vomit but either way your cold, lifelesss body would be found in the morning.'

But you know one really good thing PMD worked out (and which is now accepted as a methadoloby) is technically called 'seesawing'. It was initially discovered that due to it's unusual action, tapentadol dependence could not be effectively dealt with via substitution so the logic is simply that if you allow yourself to be sick all day BUT know you can have a toot at bedtime i.e. the AWS is sort of split up into managable bits, and each day you know that at least you WILL feel OK for a few hours, it makes it easier from a psychological POV.

Uncertain if this works with fentanyl but if the 'worst' is day 5, as long as you can use just enough not to feel awful, it does seem to keep people only feeling as bad as day 1 but can vastly reduce the total amount consumed.

I'm not saying this is right for you, only that it is an accepted methadology but doesn't seem to be well understood by most people.
 
I'm glad you saw sense when it came to using a Z-drug. They are extremely unpredictable if a person does NOT fall asleep or if someone is woken up while they are still acting. Retrograde and antiriorgrade amnesia, loss of executive control, ataxia, mood lability and so on. Hence so many of the rich and famous wreaking havoc on a commercial flight because they wrongly assume that the effects would estimate the benzodiazepines they were likely prescribed in years gone by.

I get it that benzodiazepine dependence was recognized and that something to replace them would be a potential 'blockbuster' but in truth, they bind the the benzodiazepine receptor subtype most associated with physical dependence! It seems that they are actually MORE hazardous.

I suspect the logic was they they don't feel pleasent so in theory nobody would abuse them - but we now see Z-drugs implicated in overdoses MORE than benzodiazepines. Poor quality gear or just someone with tolerance would mix in alcohol or other CNS depressants and in Peter McDermotts words 'either you would stop breathing or aspire vomit but either way your cold, lifelesss body would be found in the morning.'

But you know one really good thing PMD worked out (and which is now accepted as a methadoloby) is technically called 'seesawing'. It was initially discovered that due to it's unusual action, tapentadol dependence could not be effectively dealt with via substitution so the logic is simply that if you allow yourself to be sick all day BUT know you can have a toot at bedtime i.e. the AWS is sort of split up into managable bits, and each day you know that at least you WILL feel OK for a few hours, it makes it easier from a psychological POV.

Uncertain if this works with fentanyl but if the 'worst' is day 5, as long as you can use just enough not to feel awful, it does seem to keep people only feeling as bad as day 1 but can vastly reduce the total amount consumed.

I'm not saying this is right for you, only that it is an accepted methadology but doesn't seem to be well understood by most people.
Yea, any sleep med imo is addictive or at least habit forming my nature. How can it not be? I know people who take 200-300mg diphenhydramine ON TOP of drinking just to pass out.

Anyway, yea, the ambien is purely there for that weird post acute phase where insomnia WILL either A) take me out (I will go get a bag so I can sleep) or B) exponentially worsen the paws symptoms- namely fatigue, mental “fuzziness”, lack of motivation, etc. so I use it sparingly, and usually only 2-3 nights in a row to test the waters of if I can sleep without it.

In all my past detoxes, I usually start with 2-3 hours of sleep by the 3rd or 4th week. It then increases an hour each week, so that I can get a true 6 hours of sleep by the 2 month clean mark.. give or take. And, I choose ambient bc I’ve tried EVERY type of “off label” sleep aid that docs love to prescribe here in the US- (old school tricyclic antidepressants, anti psychotics, H1 antihistamines, etc). Trazodone, seroquel, remron, restoril, amytriptaline, etc. they do nothing for me. So a Z drug used conservatively is just what it’s gonna be.
 
General Update: 132 hours in (5.5 days). Tomorrow at 11am marks 6 full days clean since my last bag of fent. So technically, at 11am that is 6 days, so after 11am im "on day 7"... I think?

anyway, in a week or two a day wont matter so fuck it. I woke up lazy and early today. But after some laying in bed listening to music I ended up sitting out by the pool with an energy drink and from about 11am till 3pm I felt pretty damn okay. Obv not 100%, but I could function like a normal lazy person, not a fentanyl withdrawing lazy person- so I'll take the W there.

I've really cut back the Rx meds today and I think that helped. I took 1 .1mg clonidine and 5mg diazepam at 9am, (after my vitC, agmatine, and creatine drink). in the afternoon, around 2pm. I took half a clonidine and half a diazepam and felt less run down, while not exhibiting any worse symptoms. I also strategically eat sugar 20 mins before my caffeine a and take a b complex and 1g L-phenylalanine before any activity and it helps.

Appetite is meh, I'm eating several small meals a day and they include good quality soups, ensure nutritional drinks, and protein oatmeal, etc. im in a hotel this time so I dont have access to non processed, home cooked meals like last time, but I'm making due,

Hopeful that tomorrow is another significant step forward, Usually once the acute symptoms start to fade, they fade fast for me!
 
Well, as I said, I don't know if seesawing works for fentanyl. I suspect it depends on a person's level of dependence.

I do know that in the UK the 'standard' opioid detoxification was methadone down to 10mg/day, swap to dihydrocodeine and then a tricyclic antidepressant. Now I don't know why that last one was so commonplace, but according to the clients who remember that method, it worked quite well.

But as I said, that N-phenylethyl may mean that only a few medicines will truly control that AWS. Ridiculous that we have the answer but choose not to use it. It was just one pill twice a day. Not a hard regime to follow (not water-soluble so cannot be injested via parentheral routes).
 
Ive heard of the see-sawing method but at this point im approaching 6 days clean and feeling better, so I'll save that for my next detox (LOL, Not, but yea).

And it doesnt surprise me the amount of useful meds, supps, and tinctures that have REAL benefits for treating opiate AW. I do see some literature coming out now since the problem is so widespread, but that literature isn't sticking where it needs to. AKA the MFin FDA
 
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