Need Help Definitive List of Comfort Meds for Opiate Detox/ log of fent detox.

[NY2soFlo]

Myrrh doesn't occupy the infamous "mu" opioid receptor that traditional opioid drugs do (eg morphine, fent, buprenorphine etc).
Theres 3 main opioid receptors. Myrrh interacts with the others.
Idk which receptors eugenol interacts with.
btw eugenol is from cloves. You can also chew on a clove or make clove tea.

If you want to explore more exotic oils...frankincense , peppermint

Myrrh sounds like a city in Game of Thrones. I’m gonna do some reading on it now and if it’s something I can order tonight with my theanine /L phenylalanine I will do so.

 

[Allylbenzene]

If you're looking for extra GABA boost:

Valerian root extract increases natural GABA levels, enhances GABA receptors and increases adenosine (calming). Benzos just enhance GABA receptors (with side-effects) and increase adenosine.

Further, extracts from valerian root facilitated the inhibition of GABA transaminase activity, the enzyme responsible for breaking down GABA.
...
It appears that valerenic acid interacts with GABA-A neurons similarly to action of the benzodiazepines, by binding to specific subunits on the GABA-A receptor complex.
...
While valerian acts mainly through GABA interactions its effects may be further mediated by its ability to enhance the effects of adenosine.
...
They found that valerian bound with high affinity to A1 adenosine receptors – with 15-fold greater potency than A2A receptors

These mechanisms likely account for the sedative effects of valerian. Benzodiazepines...additionally act by blocking the reuptake of adenosine and permitting its accumulation.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0944711309002906

So theanine + Valerian root extract + agmatine (also increases GABA) = chillout

---

To clarify on my mention of using aspirin (or sodium salicylate which is non-acidic) to support healing/repair, I'm referring to low doses. Aspirin is pretty cheap.

Aspirin is an antioxidant that protects against lipid peroxidation, but it also stimulates mitochondrial respiration. It can inhibit abnormal cell division, but promote normal cell division. It can facilitate learning, while preventing excitotoxic nerve injury. It reduces clotting, but it can decrease excessive menstrual bleeding. These, and many other strangely beneficial effects of aspirin, strongly suggest that it is acting on very basic biological processes, in a coherent way.
...
Aspirin protects against several kinds of toxicity, including excitotoxicity (glutamate), dopamine toxicity, and oxidative free radical toxicity. Since its effects on the mitochondria are similar to those of thyroid (T3), using both of them might improve brain energy production more than just thyroid. (By activating T3, aspirin can sometimes increase the temperature and pulse rate.) Magnesium, niacinamide, and other nerve protective substances work together.
...
Although the animal studies that showed stomach damage from aspirin often used single doses equivalent to 10 or 100 aspirin tablets, the slight irritation produced by a normal dose of aspirin can be minimized by dissolving the aspirin in water. The stomach develops a tolerance for aspirin over a period of a few days, allowing the dose to be increased if necessary.
...
Vitamin E, like progesterone and aspirin, acts within the cellular regulatory systems, to prevent inflammation and inappropriate excitation. Since uncontrolled excitation causes destructive oxidations, these substances prevent those forms of oxidation.

https://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/04/22/ray-peat-phd-on-aspirin/

 

[NY2soFlo]

If you're looking for extra GABA boost:

Valerian root extract increases natural GABA levels, enhances GABA receptors and increases adenosine (calming). Benzos just enhance GABA receptors (with side-effects) and increase adenosine.

So theanine + Valerian root extract + agmatine (also increases GABA) = chillout

So this is interesting, and really what i'll need before bed, and before caffeine during the day (with carbs first, as you mentioned before). I work from home and am trying to balance doing "just enough" to get paid for the day, without calling in sick, which I did on day 3, and I have no qualms with that. Unfortunately, my smaller paycheck last night was eaten up before I could buy anything, but my main check (from my main job) comes Tuesday night. So, as per usual I'm figuring it out. Certainly, nice to not have to worry about getting my other stuff and getting sick.

However, while I don't have pure Gaba or pure Theanine, I do have this product...

AKA- This is a bodybuilding nighttime supplement used to have more restful sleep. I'll list the applicable ingredients below (since I cant post the picture):
-Magnesium 145mg
-Valerian Extract 100mg
-GABA 100mg
-L-Theanine 100mg
(and some other calming things like melatonin, ashwagandha, tart cherry, etc)

SO- I know these doses listed are light. And nothing is going to knock me out once I'm in PAWS- I'll need a sleep aid. But, I was thinking of taking this now during the day right before my caffeine to stop the jitters, and hopefully induce the calming, clean energy affect @Allylbenzene had mentioned. What do you think about these doses? Worth it? Point is, until Wednesday I wont have any pure forms of GABA, VALERIAN ROOT, or THEANINE to take in higher doses, this is what i've got for now.

 

[Allylbenzene]

But, I was thinking of taking this now during the day right before my caffeine to stop the jitters, and hopefully induce the calming, clean energy affect @Allylbenzene had mentioned. What do you think about these doses? Worth it? Point is, until Wednesday I wont have any pure forms of GABA, VALERIAN ROOT, or THEANINE to take in higher doses, this is what i've got for now.

Any of those pro-GABA/relaxing things is better than none. Magnesium is a good one.
Ashwagandha is an adaptogen (helps your body adapt) which lowers stress/cortisol and boosts GABA function.
btw remember that Agmatine also boosts GABA and lowers adrenaline.

The key to get smooth caffeine effects is low doses and carbs/sugars. Caffeine jitters is a low blood-sugar stress response (cortisol + adrenaline).
Some ideas to using coffee sustainably and avoid jitters/crash (from this post)

- have coffee with a meal. This delays entry of the caffeine into the bloodstream providing a time-release type effect.
- add sugar or honey and milk to the coffee as an additional buffer against low blood sugar.
- do not have coffee on an empty stomach or immediately upon waking.

The caffeine in coffee is powerful and can act like thyroid to increase your metabolic rate and the oxidation of sugar, making it a health-protective food.
Symptoms to expect when you do coffee right are calmness, focus, motivation, warmth, and stable energy.

 

[NY2soFlo]

Ok well I guess the image posted, that's cool. I've spelled it out again for anyone who wants the cliff notes on it lol.

GENERAL UPDATE: 122 HOURS SINCE LAST DOSE (which was 1 bag Sunday morning at 8am). So, after 8am this morning I'm currently on day 6. My days have been pretty similar, pretty much sitting around like a potato. It takes me 20-30 mins to gather the willpower to get up. I realized I was taking closer to 3.5g vitamin c per dose, which was exasperating my diarrhea. I cut back to exactly 2g every few hours and that has "improved". Day 4 and day 5 gifted me about an hour of some energy in the late afternoon where I was able to do a few things, afterward my energy was sapped. I also haven't been napping the last few days- as I had been on the first few days.

Last night, after being completely calm and still all day, I crawled into bed and the RLS went off like crazy. Anxiety shot up, literally all my symptoms came out of nowwhere. I dont get it. I laid in the bed for hours during the day with no restlessness at all, and then it drops on me like a bomb around 11pm when im trying to sleep. Also, my nighttime sleep is waining. Last night I slept 2 hours, the night before 4 hours. We can see where this trend is going, and its exactly what I expect. Everytime I start to come out of the acute withdrawal phase, the sleepless nights come in. I've tried EVERY "sleep aid" that detoxes and doctors are willing to give (doxepin, amytripaline, mirtrazapine, trazodone, seroquel, etc)... NONE WORK. So im asking my doctor for a real Z drug for sleep bc I dont have the luxury of being a zombie while inpatient for a month. I'm out here with work and I know after a couple sleepless nights, my mind will tell me that getting a bag is worth it just to sleep. Its my M.O. and happens everytime. It usually takes me about 30-45 days before I can get a decent 5-6 hour night sleep. And I'm not able to play those games this time around.

ALSO: Last night, in the throws of my restlessness and frustration I decided to test the waters using some of the pure bupe that was given to me. I figured at over 100 hours past last dose I'd be ok, and I was right. I took 1mg, waited 30 mins, and then took another 1mg. That gave me my 2 whole hours sleep. So, the plan here was never to use the bupe, bc i dont want to extend this process any further. So, I', calling an audible here and will be taking 1mg this evening, 1mg on day 7, and half a mg on day 8. So a 4 day taper (2/1/1/.5) To me, thats about as conservative as I'm willing to go. Suboxone and me will not have a future relationship. Anyone have thoughts on this? Was it a weak moment? Or would you consider adding this very light taper into the plan here towards the end of acute withdrawal. I dont regret it, and truth be told, I actually feel ok still today. I suppose that speaks for how fast my tolerance dropped- that 2mg is making me semi functional today.

I also (as planned) severely cut down on my prescribed meds. This morning, I took my OTC supps, but med wise I took:
-.1mg clonidine (only med I didn't cut, it's just too helpful
-2.5mg valium
-.5mg klonopin
-12.5mg hydroxyzine
-ZERO tizanidine

Between the vitamin C, the BSO, and me actually eating and drinking enough I think I really curbed some of the worst of the symptoms. Unfortunately, I would have liked to run this experiment without taking the bupe last night, to see if the lower med doses didn't knock me out as much. But it is what it is, and as of now I don't feel terrible at all. And usually, in detox, it takes 2-3 days to level off on bupe before you feel the way I do now. So, I'm hoping to be out of the woods here by monday. Acute withdrawal wise. Then comes the nest step, dealing with PAWS and sleeping.

Any input or opinions on anything I mentioned are greatly welcome!

 

[NY2soFlo]

Any of those pro-GABA/relaxing things is better than none. Magnesium is a good one.
Ashwagandha is an adaptogen (helps you to adapt) which lowers stress/cortisol and boosts GABA function.

The key to get smooth caffeine effects is low doses and carbs/sugars. Caffeine jitters is a low blood-sugar stress response (cortisol + adrenaline).

btw remember that Agmatine also boosts GABA and lowers adrenaline.

Some ideas to using coffee sustainably and avoid jitters/crash (from this post)

Thats what I figured, not the highest doses, but better than nothing, especially since i'm adding them in now. And I'm home today. So, I took 750mg agmatine with my 2g vitamin c. Hard to tell what's working since I ended up taking 2mg of Subutex last night. But until im through this I'm using everything i've got.

 

[Allylbenzene]

You're also free to redose agmatine multiple times per day as you see fit. Sublingual if you can before swallowing (add honey if you want). Think of it like a cushion aid. ~500mg agmatine seems reasonable.

You can also consider a combo of black seed oil, myrrh oil and agmatine before using bupe. I'd crush the black seed capsules so the effects are more immediate and add some honey for metabolic support. The idea is to provide theraputic relief that would set aside any desire for bupe.

 

[NY2soFlo]

You're also free to redose agmatine multiple times per day as you see fit. Sublingual if you can before swallowing (add honey if you want). Think of it like a cushion aid. ~500mg agmatine seems reasonable.

You can also consider a combo of black seed oil, myrrh oil and agmatine before using bupe. I'd crush the black seed capsules so the effects are more immediate and add some honey for metabolic support. The idea is to provide theraputic relief that would set aside any desire for bupe.

My BSO is 200mg a cap, rated at 5% Thymoquinone. From what I'm seeing, daily dosages can be up to 1500mg. Granted, 5% thymoquinone is a mid-high range extract from what I see. Perhaps ill start adding an extra pill every few days till im at around a gram.

For Myrhh, I see caps and oils/tinctures... it sounds like youre suggesting the oil?

And lastly, are you suggesting this combo to settle me enough to not want to take the bupe? BC I dont want to take the bupe, so that would be great. But, worse case, my bupe taper is 1/1/.5 from today on anyway.

 

[Allylbenzene]

My BSO is 200mg a cap, rated at 5% Thymoquinone. From what I'm seeing, daily dosages can be up to 1500mg. Granted, 5% thymoquinone is a mid-high range extract from what I see. Perhaps ill start adding an extra pill every few days till im at around a gram.

Thymoquinone has been reported for its high therapeutic potential...including substance abuse therapy.
It also has potential chemical effects mimicking opioids, especially on the mechanisms of opioid dependency and tolerance.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7395189/

For Myrhh, I see caps and oils/tinctures... it sounds like youre suggesting the oil?

Yes, the oil is usually the easiest thing for people to buy. Raw myrhh is a solid resin which is what the oil/tinctures are made from. Capsules will be more convenient so it just depends what's in them (resin/oil/...?).

And lastly, are you suggesting this combo to settle me enough to not want to take the bupe? BC I dont want to take the bupe, so that would be great.

Yes that combo should provide theraputic relief that will make bupe uninteresting. (thymoquinone, myrrh oil, theanine, agmatine).

Also, taking ~500mg agmatine several times a day might work for periodic relief. Maybe paired with the vitamin C (sodium ascorbate).

 

[NY2soFlo]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7395189/


Yes, the oil is usually the easiest thing for people to buy. Raw myrhh is a solid resin which is what the oil/tinctures are made from. Capsules will be more convenient so it just depends what's in them (resin/oil/...?).


Yes that combo should provide theraputic relief that will make bupe uninteresting. (thymoquinone, myrrh oil, theanine, agmatine).

Also, taking ~500mg agmatine several times a day might work for periodic relief. Maybe paired with the vitamin C (sodium ascorbate).

Come Tuesday at 330am I am ordering everything here that I don't currently have lol. Thank you again man.

Quick Update: 122 hours in. 8am tomorrow starts day 7. I am still confused as to why this detox is taking a pretty classic timescale when the fent I was using was extremely long lasting. The only things that I can think of are the Vit C + BSO + Agmatine + Passionflower + Tyrosine mix.... or the fact I took 2mg sub last night. I know the sub has made my day today much better than the previous days, but still- most detoxes take several days of 4mg doses in order to stabilize. The fact I stabilized SO MUCH from just one 2mg dose is encouraging. I just did my 1mg sub dose now, and will do .5mg tomorrow night. So, by Sunday night that will be factoring out of me and well see where I'm left off. That will be day 8. Normally, that's well past the worst of it. So, if after this super conservative sub taper, if I feel "OK" by Monday or so, then I think I'm out of the woods in terms of Acute withdrawal.

AKA- Today was a relatively OK day. I worked, I moved around, and I didnt hate my life. Still low energy, but I also took half doses of meds in the AM, skipped my midday dose, and took a half dose of night meds around 8pm. Saving a few select meds to try to pass out around 11 or 12 tonight. The sleep thing gives me anxiety.

 

[NY2soFlo]

Also, just to circle back- has anyone had any experience with NAD+? Its becoming affordable on peptide sites, and looks like it could be a really good tool for AFTER WD. Managing PAWS, and speeding the healing of the body.

I'll end up experimenting with it and reporting back in a few weeks, but I'm super interested in anyone from that bodybuilding circle who may frequent the peptide sites... besides NAD+ there's several peptides and growth hormone analogues that are being studied for addiction and their *possible* effects at lowering relapse rates.

 

[pnillyg]

Also, just to circle back- has anyone had any experience with NAD+? Its becoming affordable on peptide sites, and looks like it could be a really good tool for AFTER WD. Managing PAWS, and speeding the healing of the body.

I'll end up experimenting with it and reporting back in a few weeks, but I'm super interested in anyone from that bodybuilding circle who may frequent the peptide sites... besides NAD+ there's several peptides and growth hormone analogues that are being studied for addiction and their *possible* effects at lowering relapse rates.

Yes a ton. Used it for several detoxes. Oral IM, and IV. Very helpful for speeding on the process, the timeline of the wds, and just overall energy. But it really shines in the post acute phase and to keep cravings, the body aches and lethargy at bay.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Also, just to circle back- has anyone had any experience with NAD+? Its becoming affordable on peptide sites, and looks like it could be a really good tool for AFTER WD. Managing PAWS, and speeding the healing of the body.

I'll end up experimenting with it and reporting back in a few weeks, but I'm super interested in anyone from that bodybuilding circle who may frequent the peptide sites... besides NAD+ there's several peptides and growth hormone analogues that are being studied for addiction and their *possible* effects at lowering relapse rates.

Here's some info to give context on NAD and help navigate what/why/$.

NAD+ concentrations are highest in the mitochondria which make ATP + anabolic/androgenic hormones (progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA).
To support mitochondria, use vitamin B1, caffeine + carbs, inosine, ribose, CoQ10.

All three variations of vitamin B3 boost NAD+ (at differing efficacy).

1. nicotinamide riboside
2. nicotinamide (niacinamide)
3. nicotinic acid (niacin)
   
   NAD = nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide

> Is Niacin or Niacinamide better? Does anyone who has experimented with either actually recommend its use?
...
I strongly recommend it's use. Niacinamide has been shown to assist energy production by assisting the citric acid cycle (krebs cycle) in producing ATP.
Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) and nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADP+) play key roles as carriers of electrons in the transfer of reduction potential. I take it daily.

Niacinamide is great - it lowers free fatty acids, increases NAD, acts on the GABA-A receptors like benzos, inhibits sirtuins, and helps the liver detoxify estrogens.
I think niacin raises cortisol and serotonin (at supplemental doses).
Niacin also causes flushing at high doses and does not efficiently elevate mitochondrial NAD.

When is the best time to take Niacinamide? before, during or after the meal?
Thanks

I don't know, I take it with a meal. I suppose taking it before might temporarily cause low blood sugar

Conversely, elevating NAD+ (and thus NAD/NADH) levels with precursors such as nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN) or nicotinamide riboside (NR) was effective in completely preventing kidney damage and CKD. Since NMN is no longer available over the counter and NR is rather expensive, niacinamide remains as the most viable option for replicating the study in humans with CKD, especially considering the fact that niacinamide is just as effective as an NAD+ precursor as NMN/NR while also having potential additional benefits...

This study used nicotinamide mononucleotide (NMN), and human studies have shown that niacinamide is equally effective as NMN in raising NAD levels. Also, as @tyw pointed out a few times, niacinamide is a SIRT inhibitor while NMN and nicotinamide ribodise are activators. This SIRT inhibition activity may give niacinamide an edge especially as an anti-cancer nutrient since SIRT inhibitors lower fatty acid oxidation (FAO).

Multiple studies have demonstrated statistically equivalent rise in NAD+ levels from equal doses of any of the known NAD+ precursors such as niacin, niacinamide, nicotinamide riboside and nicotinamide mononucleotide.
...
Oxidizing agents such as vitamin K & CoQ10 can raise the NAD+/NADH ratio but they achieve that by simply increasing the oxidation of NADH back into NAD+. They do not raise the total AD pool (NAD+ plus NADH), while niacinamide does (the total pool size is also important for good health). As such, perhaps the optimal method for raising both the AD pool and the NAD+/NADH ratio is through using both niacinamide and an oxidizing agent.

Although there are quite a few threads on nicotinamide, etc. I couldn't find a single thread on NAD.
A doc in our town is using this therapy:
"The antiaging and regenerative medicine experts are also pioneers in NAD therapy. They offer NAD therapy as a treatment for addiction, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), chronic stress, anxiety, depression, and neurodegenerative conditions such as Alzheimer’s disease, as well as antiaging."

I have no idea of the cost, and I think this could be done with supps.
But am curious for any input and info from others.

I've asked Peat about this and he said taking Niacinamide orally is much safer. He didn't elaborate.

---

TLDR:
NAD+ concentrations are highest in the mitochondria which make ATP + anabolic/androgenic hormones (progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA).
To support mitochondria, use vitamin B1, caffeine + carbs, inosine, ribose, CoQ10.

These seem like the best options to boost NAD+ levels, both safety-wise and cost-wise
(NAD = nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide)

• nicotinamide riboside
• nicotinamide (niacinamide) - use with a meal/carbs to maintain stable blood sugar

Before trying NAD, give those 2 options a go first. You might save a lot of $.

 

[NY2soFlo]

Yes a ton. Used it for several detoxes. Oral IM, and IV. Very helpful for speeding on the process, the timeline of the wds, and just overall energy. But it really shines in the post acute phase and to keep cravings, the body aches and lethargy at bay.

This is music to my ears. And the prices on peptide sites are coming down. Do you remember what you dosed it at? Mg per dose, and how often??

 

[NY2soFlo]

Here's some info to give context on NAD and help navigate what/why/$.

NAD+ concentrations are highest in the mitochondria which make ATP + anabolic/androgenic hormones (progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA).
To support mitochondria, use vitamin B1, caffeine + carbs, inosine, ribose, CoQ10.

All three variations of vitamin B3 boost NAD+ (at differing efficacy).

1. nicotinamide riboside
2. nicotinamide (niacinamide)
3. nicotinic acid (niacin)
   
   NAD = nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide

---

TLDR:
NAD+ concentrations are highest in the mitochondria which make ATP + anabolic/androgenic hormones (progesterone, pregnenolone, DHEA).
To support mitochondria, use vitamin B1, caffeine + carbs, inosine, ribose, CoQ10.

These seem like the best options to boost NAD+ levels, both safety-wise and cost-wise
(NAD = nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide)

• nicotinamide riboside
• nicotinamide (niacinamide) - use with a meal/carbs to maintain stable blood sugar

Before trying NAD, give those 2 options a go first. You might save a lot of $.

Thank you. This is all really good information. Depending on how the postacute goes I’ll probably end up. Trying both just for an experiment to report back here.

Postacute for me is always marked with no sleep and no energy. Those are the main things I’m trying to combat in the coming weeks.

 

[Allylbenzene]

Add these to your detox support tools (these boost ATP, NAD+)
- vitamin B1
- inosine
- ribose
- CoQ10

 

[pnillyg]

This is music to my ears. And the prices on peptide sites are coming down. Do you remember what you dosed it at? Mg per dose, and how often??

IV 200-750mg per bag. Sometimes I’ll do 250NAD+ and 250NR-NAD mixed. Or something like that. I’ve done many ratios. Also for IM usually between 25-100mgs.

 

[pnillyg]

Thank you. This is all really good information. Depending on how the postacute goes I’ll probably end up. Trying both just for an experiment to report back here.

Postacute for me is always marked with no sleep and no energy. Those are the main things I’m trying to combat in the coming weeks.

NAD will no doubt help with this big time. Also can I ask what protocol you’re doing for you’re comfort meds right now?

 

[Allylbenzene]

besides NAD+ there's several peptides and growth hormone analogues that are being studied for addiction and their *possible* effects at lowering relapse rates.

IMHO the most effective way to lower relapse rates is to improve core metabolic function. Coffee is the worlds most popular choice for this (see here why).
Strong metabolic function implies the body makes plenty of it's own dopamine, GABA, agmatine, endocannabinoids, protective hormones (eg progesterone) and even opioids.

 

[NY2soFlo]

IV 200-750mg per bag. Sometimes I’ll do 250NAD+ and 250NR-NAD mixed. Or something like that. I’ve done many ratios. Also for IM usually between 25-100mgs.

For being a lifelong heroin addict I’ve only used a needle once because I had to. IV is not an option for me…. Bugs me out tbh lol. So IM would be my route of administration.
I would think that and IM injection would require a higher concentration than an IV though no? I realize it may have been a while since you’ve done this so your memory might not be there but if you do have any recollection of the of IV versus IM, I would be very interested to hear about it.

At this point, I’m planning on using it to update my energy levels and knock out PAWS as fast as possible. I’m really not looking forward to two months of not sleeping and feeling like a potato still.