Dealing with Existential Frustration?

[malakaix]

I was originally going to post this in the Mental Health sub-forum, but as I started writing it out it seemed better suited to P&S even though it's a personal frustration.

I continually experience a very deep existential pain, one that I've been unable to reconcile.. only mitigate and rationalize my way out of but it's always there. Like a splinter in my mind.

This is hard for me to describe, and I've longed turned to philosophy to help me understand and manage my experience of it. But it doesn't matter how much I rationalize what I'm feeling I always feel at my core that I'm just telling myself a story to cope with the inherent absurdity of existence. I play the game of life and go along with been someone, involve myself in social issues, interact with people, tell myself that what I'm doing is meaningful and I'm working towards personal goals but it all just feels like a façade.

I can't take it seriously, and yet it's demanded of me. Nothing seems to matter, and yet it does.

I long came to the conclusion that it really comes down to a matter of perspective, circumstances change and with it so does ones outlook on life where they may find meaning and value in places they never would of expected, but BECAUSE it is a matter of perspective and that meaning and value is subjective at any given moment in time those circumstances can change and you may find yourself once again in the throes of existential despair.. there is just nothing concrete. It feels like building a house on sand.

And it's this perpetual free-fall that makes me want to just give up on giving a damn, as soon as I get to serious about anything in life it falls apart somehow.. almost as though to exemplify the transience of life. I'm usually a very optimistic person, and I often get to the end of writing a post like this and decide to delete it because I can just go and distract myself with a video game or TV show and my feelings on this subject disappear. But the fact that this arises with such ferocity when it does tells me there is something at the fundamental level that is deeply unsettled and is likely pervading through to everything in my life.

 

[-=SS=-]

This sounds familiar to me; it's something that irritates my mind on a daily basis. In fact it's usually the first thought I have in the morning when I feel my consciousness slipping out of the dream state and back into the body. "Oh joy. Another day of this.". It follows me into my sleep too; i'll often lament in dreams, watching them and commenting to no one but myself.. "this is absurd/that's not possible/the fuck is that!". I've woken myself up a few times laughing at the absurdity of it.

The pain is your reaction to not allowing yourself to accept what is. Existence is absurd. I won't say it's meaningless.. only that it doesn't really matter. Those who have died on the operating table and come back have often remarked how utterly ridiculous it was for people to be mourning over a corpse.. and how utterly ridiculous the whole notion of taking any of this seriously is. I think that's why people sometimes get the giggles on psychedelics as they're coming up.. they have one foot in another dimension, and from that dimension we intuitively and instantly recognize/remember that this physical existence is no more real than a dream. Laughter is a deep reaction to knowing that truth.. because usually we take life so seriously.. we take ourselves seriously.

You can't reconcile this feeling, but I would say you should sit and examine it thoroughly until you get an answer. And you will eventually.

It's one of the big paradoxes. None of this matters.. but you should still fight! Fighting but not caring. Incidentally that is one of the secrets to (real) magic.

 

[P.o.T.u.S]

All heavy thinkers come to this conclusion..all this is meaningless..it is a liberating or troubling thought depending on how you react to it.

 

[malakaix]

Thanks, SS. I'm glad my post made sense and that you were able to understand what I meant, it feels like an impossible subject to discuss because it's so paradoxical in nature.

I can relate to the point on laughter. I have on occasion found myself laughing hysterically when confronting the absurdity of existence, it seems to bring everything back to an equilibrium. The seriousness of life washes away as both microcosm and macrocosm are perceived simultaneously.

"Fighting but not caring" - Yes I agree. I suppose this is one of the great points re-iterated when it comes to detachment. To feel, think, fight and love passionately without been attached to the outcome.

 

[un kle fukka]

I would advise yo to consider those feelings to be specific to the time in your life , like a phase you are going through kinda, and work toward a better future the best way you can and are able to

 

[pinkbuffalo91]

I experience the thought daily. In certain times it is a freeing concept, at others it is deeply troubling. As the sun sets the tides of apathy rise and sleep meets a weary mind.

 

[Foreigner]

I've found that, at the point which you begin to see that this illusion (or whatever you want to call it) is capable of producing anything, and yet it's a total mystery, you either begin to feel great pain about it, or great liberation, or both. The pain tends to come from the end of narratives and self-concepts. If nothing out there is substantial then you're not substantial either. It's like a slow death of self. Maybe life continues to derail your schemes in order to exemplify the temporal nature of everything (this too is a narrative). If any part of you still feels like you have something to lose, or is grasping, then you'll bang into rock ledges as you fall. It's a difficult lesson to learn, that in order to really get it, you are required to stop trying to get it.

On the plus side, you're totally free.

On the down side, you're totally free.

I'm not talking about free will vs. determinism here. I mean that, nothing sticks. You're in perpetual free fall. You could take it or leave it, because "you're" not in it. Whatever's happening is just what's happening. You're free to love it or hate it, but the nature of "it" will never change.

It's bittersweet for sure. And just because you realize these things, doesn't mean suffering ends. It just means that you're not attached to whatever is happening in the present moment. You could feel intense, tear-jerking compassion one minute, laughter the next, anger the next, etc... it's all just one, continuous thing that never ends, and it has nothing to do with you.

The paradox that you're seemingly here and things are seemingly happening vs. it's all empty and nothing really matters eventually gets reconciled with oneness. But it takes a real, embodied experience of ego death and I'm not sure how to recommend going about that... nor is it for the faint of heart. God resides in you, as you.

Just remember the golden rule. Nothing is separate. Begin applying it to everything you experience, whether joyous or painful. It's not just another narrative. You'll feel the truth of it in the meat.

 

[malakaix]

I've found that, at the point which you begin to see that this illusion (or whatever you want to call it) is capable of producing anything, and yet it's a total mystery, you either begin to feel great pain about it, or great liberation, or both. The pain tends to come from the end of narratives and self-concepts. If nothing out there is substantial then you're not substantial either. It's like a slow death of self.

On the plus side, you're totally free.

On the down side, you're totally free.

This is exactly how I would describe it. Perhaps only with time and experience will I see the silver-lining within it. Thanks for the response Foreigner, you've confirmed my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Ninae]

I think that's why people sometimes get the giggles on psychedelics as they're coming up.. they have one foot in another dimension, and from that dimension we intuitively and instantly recognize/remember that this physical existence is no more real than a dream. Laughter is a deep reaction to knowing that truth.. because usually we take life so seriously.. we take ourselves seriously.

I've also seen this described as a common reaction to sudden chakra-opening. Psychedelics cause libido energy to rise and activate the chakras, especially the higher ones, which can produce a great feeling of power, bliss, and heightened capacity for abstract thinking.

Fully open and hyper-active chakras feels pretty amazing compared to the normal state, although they should ideally be opened gradually and naturally.

 

[psood0nym]

Way back in March there was a thread in Healthy Living posted by maxmaxcity titled "Why Our Culture Is Making People Unhappy..." that brought up similar themes as this one, and indeed, attracted some of the same posters. I posted there about Matthieu Ricard, the Buddist monk/French biologist who Time magazine dubbed "the world's happiest man" after various empirical investigations revealed his brain to be radically different than the rest of ours, and in seemingly highly beneficial ways.

I find it interesting that the reason Ricard gives for becoming a monk in his book “Happiness: A Guide to Developing Life's Most Important Skill,” is not knowing what he wanted. I personally feel that this desperately wanting to want is the single largest source of existential despair in my own life, and suspect it plays a strong role in others' as well. There's no denying the fact that Ricard willfully altered the structure and functioning of his brain through persistent meditation. You can read the studies and look at the fMRI scans yourself. I don't know why doing something like focusing on the sensation of breathing with an open and accepting attitude, or wishing your enemies contentment and freedom from suffering for hours everyday should lessen anybody's existential problems, but it clearly does have a profound impact on the mind.

The way I'm starting to think is that I have to keep up the exercise but also spend maybe six months meditating for 40 minutes a day without using drugs or drinking before I decide how frustrated I really am. I'm thinking that maybe doing that is all the purpose I'm entitled to until then.

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm a person who finds the illusion of existence liberating, although it took me a number of years since first seeing it to feel stable in my feelings about it. The way I see it, the fact that we're all just a collection of molecules in an infinitesimally tiny speck of time and space helps me to put my perceived problems in perspective. At the same time, it doesn't stop me from finding meaning in things. Regardless of the fact that my self is a temporary illusion, I still experience the illusion daily. I have an ego/personality in this life, and I find great joy and meaning in some things, particularly in love and human connection. And the fact that I know what's really going on makes those things even more special to me, that we have the ability to experience them at all is magical. So when I think about all the problems in the world, I am able to just tell myself that it's just dust in the wind, and it doesn't really matter. And then when I experience something good I truly get to appreciate it for the precious thing it is.

I think that the purpose of this illusion is that the universe gets to experience itself subjectively in an infinite multitude of ways. "My" life is one of those ways, so despite knowing it's an illusion, I want to experience it for all it has to experience and play my role in this vast cosmic stage show to the fullest extent.

 

[GolemGolem]

Tried to find a quote, but could only find plagerism on some blog:
"Sisyphus is indeed the happiest man in the world because he has purpose. He suffers no malaise or existential crisis, and every time he pushes his rock to the top of the mountain I imagine he experiences the purest form of happiness. After this moment, he walks back down the mountain, mentally preparing for another run, and then repeats the same task until experiencing his whirl of happiness yet again. If you want to find a happy man, find a man pushing a rock, one that will eternally roll back down the hill, his enjoyment spaced out in just far enough doses so that he does not numb himself to the pleasure. The pitiful man is one who lacks a rock, who sits at the bottom of the hill, idle, bored, empty, watching Sisyphus’ labor, wondering what he can do with his eternity of time."

 

[thujone]

I'm a person who finds the illusion of existence liberating, although it took me a number of years since first seeing it to feel stable in my feelings about it. The way I see it, the fact that we're all just a collection of molecules in an infinitesimally tiny speck of time and space helps me to put my perceived problems in perspective. At the same time, it doesn't stop me from finding meaning in things. Regardless of the fact that my self is a temporary illusion, I still experience the illusion daily. I have an ego/personality in this life, and I find great joy and meaning in some things, particularly in love and human connection. And the fact that I know what's really going on makes those things even more special to me, that we have the ability to experience them at all is magical. So when I think about all the problems in the world, I am able to just tell myself that it's just dust in the wind, and it doesn't really matter. And then when I experience something good I truly get to appreciate it for the precious thing it is.

I think that the purpose of this illusion is that the universe gets to experience itself subjectively in an infinite multitude of ways. "My" life is one of those ways, so despite knowing it's an illusion, I want to experience it for all it has to experience and play my role in this vast cosmic stage show to the fullest extent.

Agreed, though, I would just add that we are each responsible for choosing our roles. If a person doesn't define themselves, they run the risk of being defined by others, and that is a fine way to survive life but it's not necessarily the same thing as truly living.

 

[Foreigner]

I don't know why doing something like focusing on the sensation of breathing with an open and accepting attitude, or wishing your enemies contentment and freedom from suffering for hours everyday should lessen anybody's existential problems, but it clearly does have a profound impact on the mind.

I would expand that further to say that reframing everything through the lens of love can cause big changes... loving all parts of oneself, loving oneself no matter what temporary states are being experienced, etc. It does take practice.

I relate to Ricard's predicament of not really wanting anything. I've done the rigmarole of career, trying to build relationships, making money, etc... but I never really want anything. When I was younger I attached myself to ideals and let them be the guiding force of momentum and development, but I ceased having goals years ago. After struggling with my perception that it was somehow pathological, I've come to the conclusion that it's actually not. I don't want to play this game, not because it's challenging, but because I don't find it satisfactory. "Doing things" doesn't really address root dissatisfactoriness (which is the real definition of what "suffering" means in the Buddhist sense). It seems like a road to nowhere. I don't want anything.

I've thought about becoming a monk, but then you have to join an order and follow their program, and I don't want that either. Though I suppose joining an order means you'll be provided for materially, which means you can more or less exit the rat race. My current dilemma is that I don't know how to exist in a system that's based on wants, when I don't want anything. It seems like forcing me to make money and chase my tail will just suck me into something I already know is futile.

 

[nygiants1313]

IDK, the only thing that brings me peace is when I stop and consider that noting truly matters. And I mean nothing. We are such a microscopic spec in the massive universe. Although it may feel long, 70 years a human lives is nothing in the grand scheme of things as how are universe has been around 14billion years. And that is just our universe who the hell knows what else is out there. So if your lucky enough (or unlucky lol) to live for 70 years that is still miniscule when it comes to how long the freakin universe has been around.

I'm not sure what I believe. I don't believe in God, yet I do believe that something happens when we die. (Oh yea, we die that's what happens lol.) But seriously maybe its wishful thinking but yea I'm just rambling now I'm not the best at talking about stuff like this, hence why I stay away and jus read as i'm sure you sound dumb as hell lol. But try not to take things so seriously. All that truly matters in our existence is spending time with loved ones and honestly that is it. It really doesn't matter if your a lawyer, or a custodian. Drive a Porsche or a beater. Live in a mansion, or a 1 bedroom. The sad thing is, most people don't realize this until it is to late. It is a very interesting topic.

I typically do hear the "there is no point to anything, nothing in life truly matters" from people who either use drugs, or tend to be more on the depressed side. I'm not sure if I've ever heard someone whose not depressed say these things. So I'm not quite sure what/if that means anything, but it is just what I have observed. Then again, it's not like I've spoken to more then a couple of people about this topic, so the point may be moot.

I know i'm all over in my post I just wanted to through some ideas out there

peace

 

[thujone]

I've done the rigmarole of career, trying to build relationships, making money, etc... but I never really want anything.

that's the point i'm at as well. it's a crapchute anyway. anecdotally, one of my mates has always worked hard and has excellent credentials but suffers in a job that's beneath him and can't afford the life he wants. another got a worthless degree, floundered about in not-career-worthy jobs but inherited a fabulous piece of land and now lives in a designer home with all the fixins. as for me, i doubt i'll ever desire a suburban home (that alone makes me undesirable to many young women) and every time i think about maybe buying a newer car i still end up just doing a maintenance blitz on my soon-to-be 20-yr. old shitbox because it is still running reliably.

i guess at some point all of us have to decide how connected we want to be to the rat race/status society. a person can live for fairly cheap out in the hinterlands but might not have access to the financial possibilities of a city-slicker. similarly, a city-slicker can squander their advantages trying to keep up with a society that expects respectable folk to be seen driving $80,000 cars.

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ There are plenty of ladies who don't care about that... just gotta find 'em. It probably depends partly on where you live, but a good online dating site is a great way to weed out the ones that aren't compatible. That's what I did. Found me a girl who's even less connected to the rat race than I am. She wants to live out in nature in a house she built, she hates diamonds, wasting money and the typical male-supporting-female gender roles (she's into supporting each other equally).

 

[thujone]

a good online dating site is a great way to weed out the ones that aren't compatible.

the notion that you actually believe this is what terrifies me the most about modern society and the reason i so desperately want nothing to do with it.

 

[Xorkoth]

the notion that you actually believe this is what terrifies me the most about modern society and the reason i so desperately want nothing to do with it.

Well it worked for me man. I was resistant to the idea, but it worked exactly like that. I chatted (as we do on here) with a variety of ladies, met a few, didn't meet a bunch, and second try I met one who I've been with for over a year and who is almost unbelievably wonderful and perfect. I know a lot of people who have a hard time meeting people of the opposite sex via "regular" means who have found good success with the online dating thing. The Internet is just a tool, it allows people to connect who would otherwise maybe not.

I set up a profile, described myself honestly and thoroughly, and as a result, people who were interested in what I have to offer reached out. In "real life", that process happens too only you don't get to prescreen it. On dates you work that stuff out, here you can do it before a date. Ultimately all it is is another way to meet people. I honestly don't see how it's a bad thing. Maybe I would have met someone as good without it, that's irrelevant because I met her with it, and without it I likely wouldn't have, and that would have been a damn shame for everyone involved.

 

[Foreigner]

that's the point i'm at as well. it's a crapchute anyway. anecdotally, one of my mates has always worked hard and has excellent credentials but suffers in a job that's beneath him and can't afford the life he wants. another got a worthless degree, floundered about in not-career-worthy jobs but inherited a fabulous piece of land and now lives in a designer home with all the fixins. as for me, i doubt i'll ever desire a suburban home (that alone makes me undesirable to many young women) and every time i think about maybe buying a newer car i still end up just doing a maintenance blitz on my soon-to-be 20-yr. old shitbox because it is still running reliably.

i guess at some point all of us have to decide how connected we want to be to the rat race/status society. a person can live for fairly cheap out in the hinterlands but might not have access to the financial possibilities of a city-slicker. similarly, a city-slicker can squander their advantages trying to keep up with a society that expects respectable folk to be seen driving $80,000 cars.

There is something to be said about daily work or a routine as part of being a healthy human being, but this has been misinterpreted as needing to be part of the economic race. They call chronic unemployment a mental health risk -- well duh, if you can't make money then you lose everything, that's the system. If it weren't for that necessity, I bet most people would just do what they love without concern. There are so many machinations attached to money that you can't just go for it without having your psyche altered in some kind of materialistic way. And if you have few choices for money, then it's even worse. I'm not saying that money is evil, but it can certainly be corrupting.

I worked my ass off in the first 7 years of my career and did well financially. Lived that money life for a while. I wasn't fabulously wealthy or anything, but... well off enough. At some point it stopped feeling real. I woke up one day and had one of the worst anxiety attacks of my life. There's something de-realizing about materialism if some part of you, deep down, knows that it's bullshit. There's this feeling in my body that tries to say, "What do you think it is you're really doing here?"

And when you see that the world could be better if humanity woke up a little bit... but then, what is "better"? I don't think anything can quell the dissatisfactoriness. That's the condition of the thing. We've turned it into an economic paradigm... keep buying and stuffing your faces until you feel better, but you never do.

My therapist says that I have one foot in this life and one in the next... meaning that I haven't fully decided if I want to be here or not, and so my life will remain unsettled until I do. We can go into the whole psychobabble of how trauma can contribute to that, but if anything trauma awakens you to the fragility and the futility.

I should have just been born dumb and beautiful. Seriously. Part of my problem is a mind that's too keen at reading into this crap. lol