Day After-taste?

[First Bad Comedown]

^ Good call.

 

[Heh?!]

You only came after me since I PMed your buddy, Chitown.
I contacted him to warn him about his heavy use.
I found his assertion that he is almost at 1000 pills over 5 years to be extreme.
Moreover, he seemed to downplay the negative effects, which is dangerous to other readers.

People are here to share their own personal experience, no one is going to lie and say they are feeling negative effects when in fact, they feel fine. Saying "Oh he adjusted good for him" is an ignorant thing to say. You're far beyond a hypochondriac, you're convinced OTHER people are damaged when they are telling you they feel no negative effects. Chitown is just some anecdotal evidence that goes against what you believe.

I strongly suspect taking 100mg benedryl after 48 hours is what put me over the line.

Sooo....how can you blame MDMA if you would have been ok had you not taken benedryl? Because it's legal? That's exactly the kind of propaganda, government drug war nonsensical reasoning that makes most people these days hesitant to take drugs seriously. Most prescription and over the counter meds have a slew of possibly nasty, sometimes dangerous side effects. Just like any other recreational drug.

I do not pretend to be a doctor, but I could have been one.
My propensity towards the technical and medical is a long-standing trait.

I somehow doubt this. If it was such a long-standing trait, you probably wouldn't have:
a) taken too much MDMA without doing your homework (I'm a computer science major and knew better than to start taking MDMA without doing a little research in harm reduction)

b) used such a large enema that you were shitting blood for a few days

c) repeatedly cited wikipedia as a resource, as someone with such an interest in these things would know better than to quote wiki(from a technical writing standpoint, try citing wiki in a college paper, your professor will laugh at you).

I studied MDMA and the 5-HT system, extensively.
Many of the conclusions I reached happened within 3-4 months, but I continue to study.
The field of neurology is nebulous, even for the doctors.

I don't even know what to say to this really. One would be hard pressed to consider even 2 years of studying such a complex subject "extensive". People spend 8+ years in school to PREPARE them to study this sort of thing.

It was not until I felt confident about the basics that I decided to return to BL and provide what NOBODY could provide me with when I so desperately needed it - information.
Searching through the archive of BL and other sites revealed a cold fact - people that are harmed by MDMA write in very little detail.
Eventually, they indicate that recovery happens, but many do not even bother.
For some people, Splinter, that is not enough.

BL is here to provide harm reduction and basic information about ecstasy that is practical. If someone is experiencing serious symptoms, or even minor symptoms that they feel are disruptive to their every day lives, they are always encouraged to see a doctor. You will see this repeatedly. It is not BL job to even attempt to tell them what is wrong with their brain or body from a medical or technical standpoint, because no one here is a neurologist. People provide information regarding their experience, nothing more.

Before I even began research, I was shocked by how many anecdotal reports I found indicating that MOST people in recovery from MDMA alter their diets radically.
Why is this such a reoccurring trend?

Most people are encouraged to alter their diets because proper nutrition is the simplest and one of the most helpful ways to restore ANY of the bodies functions. We live off of you know...food, water, and oxygen?

But what you and MANY others on BL don't get is this - all of these psychological benefits are mediated by careful dosing and one-time use.
By NO means do these benefits occur without consequence.

This is just a silly thing to say that is clearly you're opinion. There is no drug use Bible that says you may only have a profound experience once in your life. Maybe you were meant to have it only once, because you abused and had a very negative reaction to it. Drugs are not for everyone.

While the experience of 'rolling' is arguably more euphoric, this should be assumed to carry a higher risk.

From a physical and neurological standpoint, I would agree ecstasy is more dangerous than shrooms or LSD. However, you're reasoning that one should assume it's riskier because it feels better is also just plain ridiculous. LSD and shroom trips can also be an incredibly traumatic experience if things don't go well.

If you respected MDMA and used it only 2-4 times per year, you would NOT be here on BL fighting with me. Others that read these posts, will recognize the true 'harm-reduction' that I practice.
We were not meant to have such powerful experiences over and over again!

I hope for the sake of other readers I don't need to point out the ridiculousness of this^^. I disagree with the way you present your theories and have never abused MDMA (thanks to all the good people and accessible information here at BL).

Chitown has acclimated to the alterations in his 'brain-gut' circuitry.
Good for him. Many others are not so lucky.

I find this hilarious. You do not know what has or has not happened to Chitowns brain gut circuitry. It seems pretty obvious that when these things happen it is a VERY noticeable change, yet you dismiss his claim that he feels fine and say "Oh, you're not fine, you're just used to it, that's cool." Spoken like a true hypochondriac.

Giving good harm reduction advice is one thing, but when you start spouting off about all this science that you really don't understand, copy and pasting from whatever resources you can find, that's not productive. If someone is experiencing severe symptoms, point them to a REAL doctor. Don't try to diagnose them over the internet. Your posts are so self righteous it makes me kinda sick, but I bet that's just the MDMA and my brain gut circuitry alterations making me feel that way. But...don't trip chocolate chip. I won't bother poking holes in your logic or lack there of anymore. Your arguments are so full of red herrings, either/or fallacy's, appeals to ignorance, and circular reasoning it's laughable.

EDIT: I agree with Chitown that you should save your rants for Advanced Drug Discussion. Just be prepared to have legitimate citations and resources ready when you present your opinions and theories.

 

[chitown rollin]

you think I've been PMing mods over you!?!? what the fuck do you think this website is my entire life??!?! I have never talked to BearLove in my life. I do not talk to MasterSplinter... EVER! You have a warped sense of reality. I'm sure your life sucks... evidence of this is that you're on this website writing fucking essays to everybody when nobody appreciates your posts besides SomeDud!!!! I don't give a shit about you. You're some guy who stuck an enema up your ass with too much water and doesn't wanna realize he's done major damage to his body... so you blame it on something else! Don't comment on my "brain-gut" circuitry you fucking idiot. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON INSIDE MY BODY! YOU'VE NEVER EVEN MET ME!!! Where do you come up with this shit???

I know I would never let you be my doctor That's for sure. Please stop posting about me, I'm fine, YOU AREN'T! And you know what? YOU DESERVE IT! for sticking an enema in your ass with too much water and blaming it on something else. YOU DID IT TO YOURSELF!!!! I'm sure you didn't even tell the doctors about the enema ! You probably just went in there complaining of MDMA depression... pussy. Be a man about it.

Splinter, you are patronizing and on the offense, but at least you finally spent a little more time writing. Arguing effectively takes some effort, doesn't it?

First, why would you even suggest that I am somehow pissed at mods?
I am pleased that they are more neutral and mature than the average member. I consider it a good thing.
Moving on...

You only came after me since I PMed your buddy, Chitown.
I contacted him to warn him about his heavy use.
I found his assertion that he is almost at 1000 pills over 5 years to be extreme.
Moreover, he seemed to downplay the negative effects, which is dangerous to other readers.

Your referring to him in the above post, is a continuation of the MYTH that long-term MDMA abuse can happen without consequence. That is a trait of addiction, my fellow BLer.

I did, indeed, have a 'multi-day' binge. Now you are steering facts.
Rolling two days in a row, after rolling two weekends in a row, was enough to spell disaster for me.
The enema played a very minor role, if any.
I strongly suspect taking 100mg benedryl after 48 hours is what put me over the line.
I have never felt such euphoria/dizziness from benedryl.
The very next day is when everything changed.

If this relatively moderate 'binge' plus 4 doses of diphenhydramine is enough to have this effect, then it would seem that users like you ARE dangerous when you spread MYTHS about the safety of MDMA. The majority of other sufferers seem unwilling to fight this battle with 'pro-MDMA' boards. I am different.
I am the chosen one.

As for Chitown, my concern was primarily for him.
The response I have received is rather astonishing.
Both of you have followed me around for DAYS, constantly replying to my every argument. A few others have joined you, moderately. But the two of you seem to be tied at the waist.
I also suspect you have been PMing mods...

If I had known what showing a little concern for Chitown would get me, I wouldn't have bothered. Your show of concern for me is back-handed, so let it expire this time.

I do not pretend to be a doctor, but I could have been one.
My propensity towards the technical and medical is a long-standing trait.

I studied MDMA and the 5-HT system, extensively.
Many of the conclusions I reached happened within 3-4 months, but I continue to study.
The field of neurology is nebulous, even for the doctors.

It was not until I felt confident about the basics that I decided to return to BL and provide what NOBODY could provide me with when I so desperately needed it - information.
Searching through the archive of BL and other sites revealed a cold fact - people that are harmed by MDMA write in very little detail.
Eventually, they indicate that recovery happens, but many do not even bother.
For some people, Splinter, that is not enough.

I have always been a smart person, and I digested a LOT of information.
I did not 'steer the facts' as much as you think.

Before I even began research, I was shocked by how many anecdotal reports I found indicating that MOST people in recovery from MDMA alter their diets radically.
Why is this such a reoccurring trend?

This was just the first clue, but it was a consistent one - look for yourself.
Then I learned the basics of serotonin, such as 95% of it is in the intestines, NOT the brain.
These facts found me. I was simply looking with open eyes.

This was just a starting point.
My study was NOT limited to the 'gut' theory.
I read hundreds of abstracts, at least 30 FULL research papers, and several META-studies.

Meta-studies are quite interesting, because they are the result of someone else doing what I'm trying to do - compressing hundreds of studies into a comprehensive presentation. The conclusions reached in META-studies back up MANY of my assertions.
Soon, you will see links.

Then, will you continue to fight me?
Will you call it 'propaganda'?

The fact is, son, that science incriminates MDMA from many different directions.

However, it has also shown some psychological benefits.
This has been seen with other psychedelic drugs, like mushrooms and LSD.
People have described some of the most meaningful experiences of their lives while on these drugs. Some studies suggest around 70% of subjects questioned felt this way.

But what you and MANY others on BL don't get is this - all of these psychological benefits are mediated by careful dosing and one-time use.
By NO means do these benefits occur without consequence.
What do you think these liberal scientists would say to this community about having hundreds of psychedelic experiences?

MDMA is riskier than mushrooms or LSD, yet many eat MDMA like it is the best drug ever invented.
While the experience of 'rolling' is arguably more euphoric, this should be assumed to carry a higher risk.

If you respected MDMA and used it only 2-4 times per year, you would NOT be here on BL fighting with me. Others that read these posts, will recognize the true 'harm-reduction' that I practice.
We were not meant to have such powerful experiences over and over again!

Chitown has acclimated to the alterations in his 'brain-gut' circuitry.
Good for him. Many others are not so lucky.

For the 20 or so people that have approached me for real help, I was there for them. If you ever find yourself among them, you let me know.
For the countless others that will eventually find their way to my postings, I hope I have lit the very dark path that is MDMA recovery.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Whoah, Chitown.
Why so much screaming?

It sure seems like you are upset about my opinions.
If I am so wrong, why do you bother?
PMing you was the beginning of this, and you know it.
Why does being confronted anger you?

There is no such thing as taking 800 tabs without damage, bud.
Accept it.

Heh - you did a much better job of confronting me.
But if falls short of 'tearing apart' my ego...
At least you have an emotional distance.

I will respond to you, but not tonight.
Please, mods, leave this one open...

 

[Bearlove]

^ Immature.

Chitown - stop calling upon your Mod buddies for back-up. You are a big boy now.

Bearlove,
I'm sure that your contributions and knowledge far outweigh what these kids bring to BL.
However, you have misconstrued my argument.

I am smart enough to know that BL does not 'train' or 'employ' the moderators.
You earn your position through years of helpful posting.
But I do see a trend that Mods tend to be more neutral in regards to their arguments.
This is a trait caused by passage of time and experience, otherwise known as 'wisdom'.

Not once did I suggest that I was 'freaking you out' or 'pissing you off'.
That was clearly directed at Chitown and Master Splinter, not any mods.

It is also obvious that I am not claiming to know the purity or dosage based on taste.
I simply remarked that lower quality tabs, which I test, result in a modestly different taste the next day. Not during the roll...

I find the relationship between serotonin, tryptophan, stomach bile, and MDMA to be fascinating. Saliva belongs in this group, too.

And you can find plenty of harm-reduction advice, if you are willing to read through all of my posts. Yes they are long, and strong....but information is the best harm-reduction strategy there is.

I have neither misunderstood or misconstrued your argument, I actually repeated what you were trying to say in my reply.

After you roll you have a different taste in your mouth - I think most of us agree that we all have a strange taste in our mouths after being awake for several hours chewing gum, being in a smokey room, ingesting chemicals etc.

I was surprised to read that you could taste a different taste in your mouth depending on the quality of the roll. If this is down to certain cuts, quality of the MDMA or different binders being used Im unsure.

I do know that certain drugs give me a different taste in my mouth the day after but Im really not that sensative to notice them after simply popping a few pills.

I do think that this thread is turning into a flame war with a few users and it has to stop. Were all entitled to an opinion but were certainly not here to rip apart posters etc.

Keep it on the subject in the thread please

 

[Heh?!]

Whoah, Chitown.
Why so much screaming?

It sure seems like you are upset about my opinions.
If I am so wrong, why do you bother?
PMing you was the beginning of this, and you know it.
Why does being confronted anger you?

There is no such thing as taking 800 tabs without damage, bud.
Accept it.

Heh - you did a much better job of confronting me.
But if falls short of 'tearing apart' my ego...
At least you have an emotional distance.

I will respond to you, but not tonight.
Please, mods, leave this one open...

One last post for the sake of clarity.

I never said I was going to tear apart your ego.

Stick to basic harm reduction information in your posts.

I don't think you understand the science behind this as well as you would have everyone think. However, you obviously have put a great deal of time into reading whatever resources you've read.

Leave your rants in Advanced Drug Discussion, and make sure you have legitimate citations ready, because you may, like many other users (myself included), be in over your head in that forum.

People who come here do not need to be diagnosed over the internet. They need to be told to go to a doctor if they are experiencing negative symptoms. We are not here to give any sort of advanced diagnosis over the internet. Encourage them that they will recover, and to go see a doctor. It's really that simple.

EDIT: My apologies to the mods and OP. I would take this to PM, but am still a Greenlighter.

 

[Bearlove]

Whoah, Chitown.
Why so much screaming?

It sure seems like you are upset about my opinions.
If I am so wrong, why do you bother?
PMing you was the beginning of this, and you know it.
Why does being confronted anger you?

There is no such thing as taking 800 tabs without damage, bud.
Accept it.

Heh - you did a much better job of confronting me.
But if falls short of 'tearing apart' my ego...
At least you have an emotional distance.

I will respond to you, but not tonight.
Please, mods, leave this one open...

Im sure that a lot of older user have taken over 800 tabs without damage (I know I have) - What I really dont want this thread to turn into is a 'dicksizing' thread about number of pills taken or a flaming war so can everyone please be careful or this will simply be closed.

 

[severely etarded]

Time to close this thread IMO.

 

[You4EuH]

Yea this thread isn't even about day after taste anymore it should have been closed a few days ago.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

End of Argument

Bearlove -
Thanks for the response. And the backup.
Other mods have let these guys say just about whatever they want to me...
I know this is WAY off thread-topic, but I didn't start this battle.
Consider this my last attempt to finish the discussion in this thread.
I hope you will leave it in place.
If you think it is appropriate, this can be moved into its own thread.

Heh?! -
My post to Chitown below should speak volumes.
My only response to you is that I learned a LOT more than you might think in 4 months. I too was a college student, once. I even took some JAVA and C++ courses, so I respect your own intellectual capacity. This is a reason you are equipped to argue. Do not assume to doubt mine.

For four months I was immersed in the study of other people efforts. These are brilliant and dedicated scientists that are VERY concerned about the consequences of wide-spread use/abuse of MDMA. They WANT us to listen.

It is their hard work that allowed me to achieve so much in such a little time. I do not claim to have an abundant medical knowledge, but I did specialize in a VERY narrow field of study. While some of my posts can verge on arrogance, not ONE person has ever gone up against my assertions with a SOLID objection (aside from regular ibuprofen use).

Moving on...

Chitown -

After re-reading your last post, I am still shaking my head. 8)
I hope Splinter is in attendance.

If I am wrong about you and Splinter being buddies, why dose it matter?
And why is he on your 'friends list'?
If you didn't involve a mod in our bickering, I withdraw my accusation.
Perhaps someone else did. Perhaps they did it on their own.

But these statements on my part are pretty minor ones.
I don't see how I have damaged you, in any way.
Why are you taking this so damn personally?
Why do you act like every statement I make is reflection of some God-like expertise-complex?

Bro, I'm just a smart guy who knows how to write.
I have a mission to illustrate the basics of MDMA research for the horde of young users here.

I eat healthy and work out every day. I'm in better shape than I was at your age.
I have a life - including a hot wife, cute toddler, and a great new job.
That is why I have had to take breaks from this bickering lately - it is more time-consuming than my damn 'essays'.

But your assertion that I somehow have NO life, really doesn't bother me.
Considering how difficult this recovery process is, I am doing GREAT.

I did go see a doctor - two of them.
One told me there was nothing wrong with my intestines or liver, and it couldn't be the MDMA because I didn't have extreme symptoms when I arrived at the hospital.
They sent me home with damn Alcoholics Anonymous papers just because I was concerned about hepatoxicity! Idiots...

The other hospital took a sonogram of my liver/gall bladder.
They found nothing, but sent me home with ulcer medication.
I told both doctors about the MDMA, the benedryl, and the damn enema.
It appears that when a person experiencing extreme anxiety begins talking about their 'gut' doctors simply stop listening. There is too much they don't understand and very little they can do, when the intestines are involved.

After spending money on two useless hospital visits, and being told that a neurologist would be unlikely to do an expensive scan, I had NO choice but to 'play doctor'.

Who are you calling a 'pussy'?
What gives you the right to tell me "YOU DESERVE THIS!"?

Seriously, who do you think you are?
I guarantee if we met in person, you wouldn't be so bold.
You are talking to a real 'man'.

Do you know how to stand up for something you believe in?
That is what I'm doing on BL.
And I do a good enough job of it to PISS a few people off.
Fine - there are hundreds of others that have no complaints.

What you just posted is a clear illustration that your arrogance far outstrips mine.
Thanks for showing your cards.

For the public's interest here are a few more examples:

In a PM from Chitown -
"Good luck? With what? I'm 21 years old in college making the dean's list. I don't suffer from depression or memory loss or whatever else people worry about to death to the point where they think they actually are experiencing. I don't buy into that stuff. I don't take month long breaks, when I use ecstasy I'll do it three days in a weekend... and then do it the next weekend.... AND BE OKAY....I'm sure you're one of those people who religiously takes 6 week breaks every single time because you're scared your brain will develop holes, but I'm not. I've been rolling since I was 16 and took probably 300 pills in that year along. I'm probably a little over 800 pills so far which means I'll be right around 1,000 soon, and guess what? I know many people who have taken much more than me. They are fine. Thanks for helping me, but I think I'm doing okay."

A later PM from him revealed that he stopped ALL drug use, including MDMA, many months ago.
Good call on his part.

Here is a Chitown thread from the Dark Side that talks about acute Benzo withdrawal.
I do not offer this in a spirit of hostility, but rather an illustration that you don't have to 'buy into' symptoms for them to be REAL.
I actually felt for you when reading this, despite the way you have responded to me.
You even said it nearly killed you! I can't even imagine...
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=560170

Were you taking benzos for anxiety that COULD have been MDMA related???
You claimed to be taking them for the WHOLE time period you also claim heavy MDMA use...We are talking since 15 yrs. old!

Here is another where he talks about 'flashbacks' or visual distortions similar to LSD.
He went as far as saying he might be 'losing his mind'.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=570196

In this one he admits to being prescribed Wellbutrin and is wondering about MDMA interactions.
Anti-deppressants are not anything to be ashamed of, but it should be considered along with the other data. Could this be MDMA-related depression?
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=535405


I could keep digging, but I think this is FAR enough.
I know you are going to be pissed at this, but this is not designed as a malicious attack, honestly.

The fact is, you and Splinter thought it was hilarious to dig up my ONE thread about an enema.
You threw it out there in the hopes of discrediting my 'expertise'.
Maybe you thought I would just go away...

But here I am.
Only after being repeatedly attacked in multiple posts and finally told I deserved what happened to me, did I decide to strike back.

Even IF you don't think any of these other issues are MDMA-related, it is NOT right for you to make this decision for OTHER people.
That is why I left my damn enema thread in place.
All information, especially about drugs, is valuable.
That is the real spirit of BL.

Maybe you aren't even aware of the link yourself.
Maybe there is NO definitive link.
I admit - I CANNOT diagnose people over the internet.

But I CAN see trends.
The trend of your threads suggests that you DO have problems, which MAY be MDMA-related.

It is selfish and dangerous for you to spout the harmlessness of taking so many tabs.

It is not reflective of ALL the data from your personal life.
You are NOT telling the whole story.

Heavy-users of MDMA have an obligation to remain open, honest, and objective.
This is to benefit OTHERS.

Perhaps when you are older looking back at kids much younger, you will understand.
For now, you are still young and you are trying to move on with your life.

Apparently you are a bright student at a great school. Good for you.
It is admirable that you have continued to function at such a high level despite the MDMA, benzos, and whatever else you put yourself through.
I hope you really are proud of yourself.
It sounds like you have a lot of inner strength.

I even see evidence that you are a decent human being.
From another PM, regarding his presence in The Dark Side -
"It is a good feeling when you can help somebody in need."

Consider the possibility that I DO know what I'm talking about.
Consider the possibility that I AM helping people avoid a terrible fate.
Sure, my case is much more severe than others, especially when considering my pattern of use.
But this does NOT give you, or others, the right to dismiss strong scientific data.

MDMA does cause harm.
Regular use and repeated dosing has been proven to increase this harm.
Some people acclimate well to this, others suffer immensely.
A few die horrible deaths.

All I want to do on BL is shine the light.
Others need to see the trends, because definitive proof does not exist.
Does it need to?
Do we really need absolute proof before we spread the word of caution?
Before we practice it for our own brains??

I wish I had known all of this information a year ago.
It would have saved me a LOT of suffering.
But maybe I can be the one to 'help other people'.
You included.

That is ALL I was after when I first contacted you, Chitown.
I still have a modest hope that we can get past this argument and emerge as 'friends'.

You don't have to agree with everything I say for that to happen.
And I won't go around talking about you, anymore.
What do you say?

If nothing else, please just lay off of me.
If you must interject, keep it relevant and direct - stop making judgements on my character and lifestyle.
Maybe, you can even add to my understanding of MDMA.

 

[socalthizzn]

2 warning to keep it civil and polite and no progress was made.
thread is now closed.