Stimulants D-Meth instead D-Amph for ADHD?

[Rectify]

I Had A Rough Time With My Bottle Of Desoxyn.

 

[Rectify]

But I Ate 29 × 10 mg meth.sulfate Rx pillz. Dolly Hated Me Ever Since.

 

[BadBoy377]

Do you think if you go over the top with it then it's harder on you when you do it again?

 

[Deleted member 594230]

Imo there exists fundamental misconceptions about the nature of ADHD which the public have adopted from the corporate healthcare system — the same system where pharmaceutical companies influence scientific research allowing them to establish (1) specific theories about ADHD and (2) studies which justify the use of their drugs as the only suitable option available. They also influence the material used to train & educate doctors who distribute their drugs (3). You could call this a "triple win" but it's for their benefit, not ours.

There's no denying that ADHD drugs provide significant temporary relief from symptoms but if you dig a little deeper into the underlying biochemistry and take the time to appreciate the nature of the complaints & issues that people on the drugs are having you might start to question the official ADHD narrative, including whether the approved treatments are truly the most appropriate solution.

I agree with you on the idea that ADHD isn’t really a disease, but more of a spectrum of metabolic, neurological, and stress-related states rather than a fixed brain disorder.

I’m also aware that dexamphetamine can have negative long-term effects even at therapeutic doses (such as dopamine downregulation and neurotoxicity). That’s why I’m cautious with it and only use it when I really need to do demanding cognitive work (studying, research, complex problem-solving). For basic work or reading I can manage well with caffeine + L-theanine, but dexamphetamine definitely makes harder work feel easier and more efficient.

I’m curious what you think about this:
Do you think the potential neurotoxicity of dexamphetamine can be meaningfully reduced by actively supporting the brain’s stress pathways, for example by limiting excitotoxicity (NMDA modulation, e.g. low-dose memantine) and reducing oxidative stress (astaxanthin + CoQ10)?

And if someone only uses dexamphetamine for truly demanding work, for example ~20 mg/day, 4× per week and takes a 1–2 week break every 2 months, do you think it’s still neurotoxic in that pattern of use?
Or do you think it can be used strategically without long-term damage?

 

[Allylbenzene]

I’m also aware that dexamphetamine can have negative long-term effects even at therapeutic doses (such as dopamine downregulation and neurotoxicity).

Do you think the potential neurotoxicity of dexamphetamine can be meaningfully reduced by actively supporting the brain’s stress pathways, for example by limiting excitotoxicity (NMDA modulation, e.g. low-dose memantine) and reducing oxidative stress (astaxanthin + CoQ10)?

Yes definitely. I'd propose these strategies to make the long-term use of amphetamine more sustainable:

• theanine (calms adrenals/cortisol/adrenaline via lowering ACTH, GABAergic, unregulates dopamine system via GDNF, regulates glutamate)
• agmatine (endogenous NMDA antagonist, α2-adrenergic agonist, anti-cortisol effects, multiple other mechanisms)
• magnesium (behaves like an NMDA antagonist, anti-excitotoxicity)
• thiamine (mitochondrial support)
• niacinamide (mitochondrial support)
• low-dose pregnenolone ("ultimate" anti-stress, protective substance)
• Something to balance amphetamines influence on the enzyme called carbonic anhydrase. I wrote about this here.

Regarding oxidative stress, antioxidants are useful but excessive use can be disruptive also. CoQ10 is a good one, natural vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol) too. I'm less familiar with astaxanthin.

Btw an unexpected source of oxidative stress would be polyunsaturated fats. They oxidise fairly easily, including at body temperature, which produces harmful free radicals & toxic aldehydes (eg acrolein). The most common source of these fats is fish oil followed by nut oils and seed oils (with the exception of macadamia oil).

And if someone only uses dexamphetamine for truly demanding work, for example ~20 mg/day, 4× per week and takes a 1–2 week break every 2 months, do you think it’s still neurotoxic in that pattern of use?
Or do you think it can be used strategically without long-term damage?

I'd say yes, strategic use alongside proactive metabolic support and excitotoxicity mitigation. Including mitigating amphetamines effect on carbonic anhydrase which I covered in more detail in this post.

 

[quahog94]

You´re not the first person or the last to posit this question in the forums. Methamphetamine is cheaper and more plentiful than prescription stimulants. However, I´m of the opinion that it´s just not suitable for chronic, stable usage. I´ll try to explain.

Stimulants are on a spectrum of sorts in my head. On one end, you have Caffeine, on the other, Methamphetamine or something similar.

Caffeine no doubt has effects on our cognition. You could even say that a high dose of Caffeine can cause Euphoria if you are not tolerant to its effects. However, the stimulation of the mind comes with extensive peripheral stimulation. In short, Caffeine is self-limiting in how ¨high¨ a person can get on it. You can only handle so much caffeine before you´r contending with palpitations, tachycardia and anxiety.

Then you have Amphetamine. We are moving up the spectrum. You can get much higher on Amphetamine, but even still, higher dosages are going to limit the amount of Central Nervous Stimulation the user can tolerate. In simple terms, it is analogous to my Caffeine reference.

We keep moving up the spectrum and DextroMethamphetamine is pretty much at the top. You get much more of the Central Nervous Stimulation and less of the peripheral effects produced by less potent stimulants. This is why you see Meth users acting in a very characteristic way, dancing, strutting, jumpy and with stereolochomotion that makes them impossible to miss. This is a result of them just being overloaded with the flood of neurotransmitters to the point that they eventually break from reality and become fully psychotic.

Now, you can see why D-Methamphetamine is a great choice for getting as fucked up as you can possibly get. However, if you´re looking for something functional, that will give you the stimulation you need without constant fear of going over the edge of Meth and losing your shit, weaker stimulants just make more sense.

I know exactly zero people who decided to use Meth to treat their ADHD who then were able to pass their doctorate and become legendary in their field. I know dozens of people who have tried though. If you don´t feel like reading all of this, just know that Methamphetamine does not typically improve anyone´s life. It can make life more fun and exciting for a short while, but there is not an infinite supply of Dopamine. You hit a wall with tolerance and then flip flop between psychosis, anxiety and the itch of wanting to be high that you now, frustratingly cannot scratch.

I appreciate the concern but as someone with narcolepsy, ADHD, depression (not so severe, just lost all adult friends cus a zoomer in our orbit is a psychopath, no thoughts of harm), at least the quality gear I can get works. I take naltrexone to reduce the neurotoxicity cus I have it. I keep my doses low, 3 mg pervitin, 15 mg Panzerschokolade. Affects at that dose are similar to dextroamphetamine at higher IR doses, with the exception that methamphetamine appears to be a stronger SRA, hence more antidepressant properties. Doses in the 5-15 mg range, especially with naltrexone, seem to be perfectly suitable for therapy of ADHD, depression even. Of course I haven’t and would not recommend use profiles commonly seen, but this compound, along with its 3,4-Methylenedioxy counterpart seem to have more therapeutic value than tha scolds tend to credit them with.

If d-meth + naltrexone can be proven to significantly reduce dopaminergic neurotoxicity, as it should, then there’s no reason to restrict its application. It just works better than dextroamphetamine. Dextroamphetamine has incredibly dysphoric side effects in my experience as an ADHD kid especially with extended release.

 

[sixteenthnight]

I get Attentin (pharma d amph) for 2,2€ per 5mg pill. I take 15mg 5x a week so monthly costs are around 130€.

I can get D-Meth powder for 70€/g, so around 20€ monthly costs.

Some people claim that d meth is neurotoxic even on therapeutical dosages (that d-methylamphetamine damages parts and pieces in the dopamine and serotonin pathways)

But if that were true i dont think it would be fda approved. Should I switch to d meth because it costs a lot less?

Low dosages of d-meth are actually pretty similar to d-amph but seem to be more effective actually for ADHD, and caused less side effects imo. I would stick to only per oral use, ime 5mg worked well but even 2.5mg if I was taking it in combination with one of my other stimulants, even 1.25mg was effective at times in combination, dosed volumetrically of course. I'd say substituting 10mg of dextroamphetamine with 2.5mg of d-meth worked fine (in combination with 70mg vyvanse), even 5mg doses worked to substitute 10mg d-amph AND 70mg vyvanse, every 4 hours, albeit i was slightly more tired than usual and had dips between doses, but when taking an adequate dose (or in my case, in combination with other stimulants) 6 hrs of duration was achievable, the crash from it was useful in my opinion as it helped me calm down and go to sleep, wayyyyy better than sleeping after vyvanse thats for sure! I don't think you'd have any issues at all whatsoever with neurotoxicity at any therapeutic dosages, and experienced far less side effects compared to equivalent doses of d-amph or vyvanse, and it kicks in much faster and unlike d-amph it doesnt seem to get inhibited by citric acid/vitamin C ime. I wouldn't get any d-meth powder at all though, crystal only, no reason for them to sell powder at all unless theyre cutting/lacing it... Christ that price is high though compared to in the US!