Products including PVP have higher solubility. To be safe in all cases, use above method.
FAQ common misconceptions:
CWE works because APAP, ibuprofen and aspirin are hardly soluble in water, especially when it's cold, whereas opiates are very soluble in water.
I believe I read that in the merck chemical index, APAP is "very slightly soluble in cold water, considerably more soluble in hot water"
The solubility of apap in about 70 degree water is I believe 1g/150ml
APAP's solubility in refrigerated water is 1g/100mL.
lol at what this thread turned into.
You gents are arguing 2 different points. You are both right and you are both wrong.
The volume of water matters IF the water temp is high. Using 2 L of water WILL kill you but ONLY if you use hot water, like pr0voke was saying. So technically if you do it his way it WILL kill you.
BUT
Doing it with COLD water makes the water volume irrelevant because the APAP doesnt disolve because the water isn't warm enough to do it. So technically if you do it james browns way it will NOT kill you.
lol
That is wrong. The APAP solubility in refrigerated water is 1g/100mL. This means that if 2L of water are used to do the extraction, the filtrate will have:
1g/100mL * 10 = 10g/L ; 10g/L * 2 = 20g/2L
20g APAP content, a deadly dose. The cold water volume is therefore relevant because the solubility of APAP in cold water is greater than 0g/100mL.
Im sorry but you just dont get it. The tylenol will BARELY dissolve in the water as long as its cold(like in the COLD WATER EXTRACTION method)....therefore, whatever amount of water you choose to use, you will just have codeine and practically zero APAP. It doesnt get any simpler than that.
Codeine dissolves in cold water...APAP doesnt.
I think my dog understands this better than you.
APAP dissolves in cold water in amounts of 1g/100mL. Since the solubility is non zero, the compound will slightly dissolve in the given amounts.
As long as you use enough water to dissolve the crushed up pills in, youll be fine.
Amazingly I dont need a degree in chemistry to know this because I HAVE FUCKING DONE IT MANY TIMES.
If you use too much water you may trigger an APAP poisoning. See the Report on APAP poisoning above.
APAP might dissolve in cold water but it would be such a minimal amount that it woudnt even be worth thinking about, let alone typing up a report on it.
...and once again....stop saying that the APAP needs to be dissolved so it can RELEASE the codeine....THE CODEINE IS NOT TRAPPED INSIDE OF THE TYLENOL. They are MIXED together.
There is no "releasing" involved. You just dump it in the COLD water and the APAP doesnt dissolve(or virtually doesnt dissolve) and the codeine does....see?...simple....no releasing.
With 350mL of water used, 3.5g of ingested Tylenol is hardly minimal. The APAP powder needs to be dissolved to release the codeine from the binder's crystalline lattice.
Wait, so whats the point of a cold water extraction if it dissolves?
Cold water extraction is a bad definition. I would prefer calling it re-crystallization to be precise. The APAP powder will barely dissolve in cold water but it will dissolve in hot water. Dissolving the APAP in hot water will unmake the crystal lattice of the binder/APAP complex and release the codeine. In order to remove the APAP content from the solution (this is an abstract view, it's like wanting to remove salt from salty water) it must be crystallized back by lowering the solution temperature, which lowers the solubility of APAP causing a phenomenon called precipitation. That is where the term ''cold'' comes from.
Urgent question:
Okay, so I didn't read any of this other than the basic technique. What happens if you use, like a litre of water and 24 15/500 pills? I end up with muck at the bottom, which I filter off and end up with an almost clear solution. But because I am using so much water, does that mean the APAP got through?
Am I a goner?
Take a moment to read the APAP poisoning report above. Using 1L of cold water will make you ingest 10g of APAP. This will make you seriously ill. using a lot of water can add a lethal APAP amount in solution.
If you have reasons to think you have poisoned yourself, call a poison center or go to a hospital. Proper care will be given and in cases of lethal doses an antidote will be provided.
you really needn't cwe that amount of pills as you aren't over the 4g limit per day. you'll be sacrificing a small amount of your codeine as well due to loss.
you can stir the pills immediately entering the water. as long as they're fully dissolved and have had time to sit everything will be fine.
phenergen is taken to increase sedation as well as control itching and nausea.
i think it in your interest to read through the initial post if you intend on making this a regular thing.
You have understood that the APAP must disolve which is a good start. You must however watch the water amount you use. See the poison report above for more information on the volume dependent APAP toxicity. Use hear to dissolve the APAP rather than a volume increase.
1st Q: Not really, I just add the crushed pills to my cold water, swirl it around so it's properly dispersed, go and wet my Coffee filters, come back and give it one last swirl and then pour the solution into the filters
2nd Q: There's debate as to whether there's any actual potentiation of metabolism, but the main reason people take it is to add extra sedation and take away the itches & nausea (Promethazine [Phenergan] being rather good for nausea).
Some Antihistamines can inhibit certain enzymes responsible for converting Codeine into Morphine (but C6G is now thought to play a larger role in Codeine's high) but, just to be "safe", take the Antihistamine after you've taken yer Codeine solution and it's just starting to take effect
---- Edit ----
Darn you Leftwing for beating me to it!
If you really want to use cold water at first without properly disolving the APAP and recrystallize, make sure you use a really high speed mixer for at least 5 minutes to high speed stir the solution. High translational motion can release the codeine from the apolar lattice through mechanical motion. Even so, your yield will be lower because you skipped the first step of the re-crystallization.
yes thats it, cheers. the larger the surface area the quicker the absorption rate is going to be.
i get near no effects even after light meals and then dosing codeine. seems to be pretty common.
That is exact. large surface area powder increases the absorption rate. Could not have said it better.
Here is an illustration for those who do not know what surface area is:
Breaking down an object into smaller and smaller pieces will increase the surface area of the whole. A fine crushed powder will have surface areas of around 5m^2/g. Porosity is also an important determinant of surface area. Porour, mesoporous materials tens to have very high surface areas, like nano ceria can have 200m^2/g surface area.
Sorry is this has already been answered before but I was wondering if
Question 1, Ibuprofen or APAP is easier to do CWE with???
Ibuprofens solubility is less than 1mg/mL according to rxlist
APAPs solubiliuty is 14mg/mL according to wikipedia
So in theory if ya buying OTC products wouldnt it be faster AND safer to use products with Ibuprofen.
I've always used APAP so I don't know, after this new regulation in australia u can't buy large packets anyways. So it's either than 24 chemists' Own (APAP+Codeine) or the 24N+(Ibu+Codeine)
Does the solution come out clearer with Ibuprofen?
Question 2, Is it nesassary to continue re-stiring the solution even though u already stired it once before putting it in the freezer?
After crushing, dissolving, & stirring the tablets, should the codeine remaine dissolved equally through-out the water or should it be taken out the freezer and re-stired a few times periodically?
Ibuprofen is safer than APAP and less soluble.
Because it dissolved in the water? Gotta be carful with the amount of water u use I think. kinda new to it to just did 2 before and they came out he'll milky might try a cofee filter next time. Allthough my other 2 were clear as when i used pandeine forte, this time unused n+.
Question? Does it have to be absolutely clear?
Great call Havokk. Using a lot of water will lead to APAP posioning, see the report above for more info. The solution does't have to be clear. A clear looksing 500mL extract contains enough APAP to harm you while a 10mL unclear extract may barely contain 0.15g of APAP. Rules of thumb: Use low water amounts.
Its not a matter of how much water per pill; Its a matter of how much apap or ibu you want at the end, roughly 8-10mg/ml will be in the final product so you should use about 100ml ABSOLUTELY NOT MORE than 150ml.
For comparison a teaspoon (measuring type not silverware) is 5ml. A shot-glass is roughly 50ml.
That is correct. One should not go over 150mL of water to extract his opiate.
Rob not to be rude, but this is a fairly straight forward method of extraction.
My advice as an amateur (happy to be corrected, and yes, I am not repeating the basics);
1. Be patient or you'll become one
2. Buy a thermometer
3. Look into lab grade filters
4. Personally, I don't crush tabs, I let them sit for a while and caps melt just fine
5. One small cube of ice to 100-150ml water for a standard 12 pack of 15's (I actually got a 24 pack of 15mgs OTC today, score!, didn't know they were available)
6. Cool in fridge, not freezer. Patience..............................
7. Check temp <5degs before pouring into glass with an appropriate filter
8. Place glass with filter back into fridge and wait. I believe extraction at room temp will change the chemistry and release the A-PAP back into the mix, just my observation (anyone?)
9. Yes this takes a while, but it will save your life long term.
Fair method. However, you could make your APAP intake 10-15x lower using my method.
I cut a piece of cloth out of a new pair of boxers and used that as a filter. (I compared it to one of my dress shirts and the weave and material was nearly exactly the same, I just dont want to use one of my 2 dress shirts haha.) I think it worked really well. I used 4 pills and the solution i was left with contained pretty much just as much water as I had in the beginning but i think almost all of the apap got filtered out. It had a foggy color and i didnt see any white crushed up apap. The only thing that didnt seem quite right (i may be wrong) was as i poured my solution through the filter (the water went through first before the undissolved apap sitting at the bottom of the container) it went straight through the piece of cloth without slowing down, which i guess is ok since it was just mostly water and dissolved hydrocodone, then once the crushed up apap hit the cloth the small amount of water that was left didnt pass through. (im guessing the apap clogged up the cloth.) Other than that i think it all worked out fine. Thanks for the help everyone. Any suggestions for improving my cwe?
One must be careful with molds and bacteria. Waring gloves and disinfecting your place of work, tools and glassware is always safe.
I always used a paper towel is that not good? I don't have any filters right now and its night. When I filter the solution there is still a bunch of sludge in the cup left that wont get out is that normal?
Yes, I assume it can do the job as long as it doesn't break.
I've read that ibuprofen is practically insoluble in water, so does the temperature make any difference? I recently dissolved 24 Nurofen Plus (307.2mg codeine phosphate, 4800mg ibuprofen) in about half a pint of room temperate water; a lot of white sludge was left in the filter, and though the vast majority of the ibuprofen was clearly removed the liquid was still considerably white and the bitter taste of codeine was masked. Granted, the filter was two sheets of toilet roll on a kitchen sieve.
In relation, I would recommend crushing said tablets before placing in water. It took an hour of violent stirring to get the little bastards to dissolve.
The solubility of any substance is temperature dependent. Increasing the solution temperature will increase the solubility of the substance. This is in part due to the face that temperature is a kinetic factor, helping to the dissociation of solutes through translational, rotational and vibrational energy.
I got some 12.8/500 Solpadeine Max (codeine)
I want to make enough for two cups for me and my friend. Going for about 130mg codeine each, how much water should I mix with the pills?
EDIT: I'm reading 5ml of water per tab, so 20 tabs = 100ml?
Yes. Using 100mL and splitting it into 2x 50mL fractions will result in an intake of 500mg of APAP + 100mg of codeine per person.
I can answer more FAQ later on I have to go now, lmk if you got any questions, post directly in the topic.
