Opioids Crazy Tolerance + Tips To Make The Best Of What I Can "Get"

[Jabberwocky]

I imagine that becoming heavily dependent as a prepubescent would make adjusting to life without opioids incredibly difficult, but I also wouldn't underestimate the brain and body's resiliency. I find a lot of what I hear about nueroplasticity in the media to be super kitschy, but the science around that is disproving a lot about what medicine used to think about the brain.

I have been struck at the awesome discussion in this thread. Perhaps it brings up the overall efficacy of opioid based pain management strategies.

 

[thelonegunman]

I am *SO* tired of hearing about the "opiate crisis!!!!!!!!" *EVERY* f***ing day.

I say this everyday lately. My fat bastard of a governor"decided" that new opiate patients could only get FIVE days worth of whatever opiate is being prescribed, no matter what the cause of the pain.
No matter if it's obvious to Stevie Wonder the patient is going to be in severe pain for quite a lot longer time than FIVE days. I mean, really? What kind of bullshit abstract, arbitrary number of days is five? Making people who already cannot move or even ambulate in the first place to have to make another trip to one of the few remaining pain management specialists. It was decided that this would curb opiate addiction in New jersey. Another Trumpian, well-researched quick fix to Make America Gay Again.

The people screaming about the "opiate crisis" really don't know much about the use, abuse or need and are just trying to clean up their little corner of the world by enacting laws that say "Oooh look at me! I did something drastic. I really care about the opioid crisis".

Yeah, you did something drastic. You just turned that many more people to heroin. This is the single biggest complaint I have with these dolts. They are either willfully ignorant or in denial about the fact that you're not going to stop addiction or abuse by having the DEA scare prescribers from writing scrips that are legit needed. You're only forcing those people to do heroin.
It's obvious. Isn't it?

 

[svacheme3]

If you were iv oxy pills then you can only fit so much per ml.... If those were your doses and you didn't use 3 ml you probably left hundreds of oxys behind thinking you used them.

Due to the mu activity mainly being its small conversion icy Oxymorphone although om having differect effect its probably only has a ceiling of how many opiate receptors you have.

Honestly even if there's legit pain these doses are high because you chased a stronger and stronger effect and now you can't sustain it due to the physical dependency. It's because people like you all who think they can beat the pain if they just take more pain killers. That's why doctors are afraid to prescribe not just because of addiction. You may not care because you think you need it, but realize it not only is holding you back. It is also contributing to the creation of policies to refuse medications even if someone needs it and doesn't even go past 200 mg.... Not per dose, but per day being closer to 30-60 mg for sustained released maintenance 2x-3x a day and 5-10 mg immediate release 4x-6x per day. Yet even with a straightforward laid out plan of treatment with medication to get to the point of being strong enough not to need it yet constantly denied as if I'm just trying to tell them what they want to hear to take advantage of them. It might honestly be the death of me as I'm tired living like this.

heh yeah I know. the solubility is 166mg/ml. i didn't leave anything behind. but my friend, didn't listen. I explained solubility to him 100 times he still insisted on doing 4-8 80s in a 1mL syringe. So since I did explain it, thoroughly, clearly, and repeatedly, I felt no dilemma in then saying 'well, can I have your wash bro?'. He thought it was just nearly empty waste, so gave it to me for free. Fun times.
But anyway, you're looking in the wrong direction for blame on caps. People who actually get prescribed that much by a single doctor have legit documented conditions, so much tolerance OD is physically impossible, and dependence too strong to sell their pills. It's myths and propaganda that they have anything, ANYTHING, to do with the so-called opiate probem that's leading to increased restrictions.
Pain specialists understand the legitimate need for extreme dosages, in certain cases. There's full on medical studies justifying high doses. Especially in the times it was used for pain at the end of life, where effectiveness was the only concern. They used thousands of mgs of morphine in those studies.


@thelonegunman, the 5 day limit is for first visit only.
http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/01/state_panels_approve_limits_on_painkiller_prescrip.html

 

[keeping]

The problem -the *only one*- with all this shit, is the OD deaths. That's the problem here, period. They're going after doctors because of idiots that OD. And they are idiots. One and all. Sorry, they are.

100% had your back and was on your side right up until then. i can understand that the opiate crisis in the US really fucked with you, still, that's no excuse. i hope what you said was out of frustration and doesn't represent you're actual person.
pain isn't always physical. i hope you find the help you need, but i'm gonna go now because, if that's what you truly believe, you're a very unpleasant person.

 

[RT24]

100% had your back and was on your side right up until then. i can understand that the opiate crisis in the US really fucked with you, still, that's no excuse. i hope what you said was out of frustration and doesn't represent you're actual person.
pain isn't always physical. i hope you find the help you need, but i'm gonna go now because, if that's what you truly believe, you're a very unpleasant person.

Keeping - sorry to bump this thread, but I *really* felt a need to respond to this. Look, it's a convoluted situation. On the one hand, of course I have sympathy for young people who end up dying. And I get, it's different if you get it on the "street" - immoral dealers cut with God only knows what, people IV what they normally get, and end up dead from an OD.

The problem is, that has *nothing* to do with Dr's prescribing pain meds. And I look at it as, I was an 12 year old who'd get handed a bottle of 900 8mg Dilaudids, 360 80mg Oxy's, 720 40mg Oxys, and 720 7.5 Percs, every 55 days. I could have easily gone wild, I was only 12... and yet I've never ODed, nor come close to it. I have zero idea what it's like, because I always used responsibly.

So these constant, *DAILY* attacks in the media about the horrific "Opioid Crisis!!!" purely because of Opioid induced OD deaths? Forcing doctors to not prescribe, or at least *never* prescribe more than a laughable daily limit of morphine equivalent dosages...?

If *ANYONE* OD's on prescribed/non-dealer-cut-heroin, someone in similar situations as I myself, and then they try to say folks in pain are at a risk of OD, and must stop...? If that person OD's on prescribed opiates, and it greatly negatively impacts me, then that person is/was an irresponsible idiot. Comparing my situation, and impacting me greatly, anyone who OD'ed as such... there's just no excuse for it. Furthermore, knowing the great pressure over opiates, anyone who continues using prescribed opiates irresponsibly, and adding to that pressure by ODing...? An idiot.

The bottom line is that, because of all this nonsense, and the pressure purely because of opiate caused deaths, the very day my Doc retires, I take a bullet to the head or whatever. Doctors just won't prescribe them because of the pressure, no matter how dire your situation is or how necessary they might be. That's just not fair - I'd really rather not die. But it'll happen, short of a miracle finding another doctor come that day, because I can guarantee no Doc you just started going to will continue long term opiates for chronic pain. So you'll have to excuse me if I hold a quite negative view of the folks ultimately responsible for my death. And the bottom line is simple: All this "US Opiate Crisis!!!!!" nonsense is because of opiate induced deaths.

So maybe I'm a horrible person - I probably am. But I think it's only human nature to hold a negative view of certain someones who genuinely, dramatically negatively impact one's life. Of course I hold sympathy for people who die, and, as I said, those who OD from cut-heroin with massive amounts of Fentanyl... who get their "fix" on the street... are completely, utterly separate from we who are chronic pain patients. "They" try to tie it in by saying folks will get hooked on prescribed pain meds, them move on to the street when cut off. However, this would not be an issue if opiates were legalized/prescribed liberally when needed, and folks would never have to turn to that "street" to begin with.

 

[svacheme3]

As much as I'm not a fan of frivolous litigation, in the case of doctors caving to bad medical advice formulated by drug enforcement police rather than doctors and information from extremely biased and ill-informed media parroting the drug agents, it's appropriate to suggest part of the solution: there has been some success with medical malpractice lawsuits for doctors who refuse to treat pain. The awful CDC guidelines are the pushback against that tactic. They were written by the DEA and carry no medical validity, and were merely designed to give doctors cover to abuse their patients to satisfy prohibitionists.

And quite honestly I agree with everything RT24 wrote, including about ODs. If someone overdoses on prescription opiates, they did so by doing something explicitly contrary to their doctors instructions (or weren't the original patient and never bothered to look up dosing instructions). In fact most prescription ODs are people not originally prescribed the meds. Anyone who has even a little tolerance to opiates has to do something serious to OD that can only be the result of ignorance when it's only pills and not fentanyl analogs. Like taking their entire 30 supply at once-- which has almost always been the case when they accuse a doctor of murder by overprescribing. There are a few valid prosecutions (doctors selling bulk blank scripts for cash out of their car in a parking lot to organized distributors, to recall one case), but by and large it's stupidity. You're told not to mix with alcohol. You're told not to take way more than needed. Yes, sorry, but if you OD on a pure, regulated product, it's stupidity. Take this one girl, she swore to me up and down she was a regular user with 120-160mg/day use. Because she wanted the whole 80 like everyone else was doing. Of course, she was being stupid, didn't have any tolerance, and I had to narcan her blue ass 10 minutes later.

Let me tell you about what were called "pill mills", even those places didn't prescribe enough to non-tolerant patients to OD when taken as prescribed. If you walked out the first time with a chest of 80s and fent patches, it was because you were already engaged in criminal behavior to get them (oh, the doctor gave little johnny 300 80s on his first visit? what an evil doctor, my little boy definitely didn't walk in there with forged medical records to get those). I was ground zero at the real-deal places.

 

[E30AlpenweissM3]

Hi RT, longtime listener first-time caller here.

You touch on a lot of different issues here that fascinate me.

First, I'll agree fundamentally that people that OD do not have their shit together and clearly harm everybody else by fueling the "Opiate Epidemic" Fire. But that's a function of the sheer number of morons out there and the fact that there is an opiate issue. I don't have hope that people will stop doing dumb shit, but agree totally that they should not affect real patients to receive therapeutic opiates and other medications.

Next, your situation sounds extremely unique which piques my curiosity but I won't insult you to ask yourself to justify it beyond what you have already said in the thread. You are the 1% in how you use your meds, the volume, and the level of sophistication. However, you make a real logical leap of faith by putting the patients and junkies in two distinct groups. I believe that many opiate abusers started as prescribed and fell down the rabbit hole from there.

I know that you don't care for people that make your life harder with their irresponsibility. But you can take some action on your own behalf. For example, you mentioned if your doctor retires you are fucked. Well have him prepare a letter to be given to your next physician explaining your condition and treatment levels required, I think this might go farther to ensure you receive care.

The idea of legalization is not new, and also not happening anytime soon in the U.S. - it would be a quantum leap a country that functions as ours simply will not be making anytime soon. So do what you need for yourself, don't get caught up in all the "opiate frenzy" B.S. but instead take the steps to ensure you continue to be treated.

Not a horrible person, we're all humans after all.

 

[tacodude]

I'll just repeat what I said once more. I never blamed the people who are prescribed a lot for their habits just accepting that they can't do anything about it. That being said I never said they were not victims nor that it was their effort vs the people who manipulate their stories such as media that uses scare tactics (the only fake news I believe in are the pop up ads and even they have gotten less fake). For those on high doses yes they may have been victims being brought up to those doses, but my point was now that they know they are victims are they going to give up and stay victims or are they going to use their now individual sense of self to become stronger and overcome being a victim. Never said it was easy it's just possible.

 

[mostly-human]

I would have thought even non-opiate users new that after a while the only thing you can get from it is to feel less sick. Welcome to hell.

 

[gmlifer]

Mr. RT24, you may think you're tolerance is one that cannot be beaten. Tread lightly. You never know when in a weak or desperate moment you may acquire illicit drugs. And you may never know what was in that drug that took you down. To call people that die of drug overdose idiots is harsh. Don't judge.

 

[svacheme3]

RT, one more thing I forgot to mention... there's been some research that suggests ultra low-dose naltrexone substantially slows down tolerance. Obviously it hasn't been studied where tolerance is already so thoroughly established, but it might be something worth considering to prevent your tolerance from escalating further. The initial reaction you're probably having is extreme fear about using an antagonist, but the dose you use is so extremely small it doesn't even interfere with how well the agonist works, let alone pose a precipitated withdrawal risk. It's not been FDA approved yet so your doctor isn't allowed to prescribe it, but you can prepare it on your own if you can source naltrexone (not naloxone). You'd have to carefully follow dilution procedures, and I'd recommend reviewing the research yourself to determine dosing since you seem capable of understanding it, but the article I checked was using 1pg/kg (1 picogram naltrexone per kilogram of body weight). There's ongoing late-stage clinical trials (Phase III) right now for such a product (Oxytrex), so this is 100% a legitimate therapy.

 

[cdin]

been on a couple sides of this, including over a decade ago a, (china habit, when it would run out needed ~500mg morphine to get well). I was well off everything, then got injured in a house fire. I'm in pain and currently remedicated, but proud of myself for getting down to 35mg only a month out of the hospital. Reading all this, I'm reminded WHY I kept my opiate tolerance low after getting out of that hole. How did I do it? Ibogaine! Completely works as advertised. In the middle of the trip I gave away the dope I had saved thinking it wouldn't work to a friend who came by sick while I was still tripping I know RT may have trouble due to medical issues - but would still probably benefit from a low dose/taper regimen. But yeah, ef other NMDA's. Iboga is the real deal, plant medicine from a million years ago that has conciously designed itself to alleviate your chemical troubles. I would not believe it had I not experienced it. But yeah, there IS a way out.

 

[svacheme3]

Did you take the Ibogaine while your tolerance was through the roof? I know it prevents withdrawal during the trip because of activity with the opioid receptors, but I've always been concerned that having a sky-high tolerance would prevent that, leading to being massively physically sick for the whole time, which could easily result in problems ranging from not making it through without running for a hit to serious medical complications. That's why I've never tried it, and obviously there's not much in the way of research on people at the 0.01% top end of habit size.

 

[cdin]

i did indeed. It absolutely worked for the most massive opiate habit I have ever witnessed personally. I did not believe it would, and kept some figuring I'd take it when things got terrible. It never happened, I gave it away.

 

[TrapZeppelin]

I’m just curious, is this guy still around? I’m reading his posts and omg. So sad

 

[kleinerkiffer]

^he last logged in a year ago so I doubt it

 

[juanma2021]

Actually, and I did want to add one other thing here I brought up a couple times - something that doesn't work with the "stop now!/get help" or "people like you" stuff. I'm not trying to justify continued usage (well, I suppose I am), but as I said previously? I've read multiple medical studies now... that a child opioid dependent...? Their brain forever changes - there is no "coming off", just a state of permanent, mild forever withdrawal.

It makes sense, too - I dunno about you, but I don't much hear of the 9 or 10 year old hardcore heroin or opioid dependent. 99.99999% at least start taking opiates during their teen years. What that means for me...? God only knows. Add in the chronic, constant, unbearable and unlivable pain? I'm sorry, but the "people like you" line just *really* rubbed me the wrong way.

And with that, I return to the ether!

te aconsejo que prueves oral. parece una tonteria pero haceme caso. al despertarte toma 40mg oral con una galleta y un vaso de agua, no seas ansioso,espera media hora, y despues anota como te sentis. Hace la prueba no te es nada que perder yo te lo aconsejo basado en experiencias. llega un punto que el modo intranasal no funciona una teoria mia es que esto pasa por la disminucion de las mucosas y la superficie de contacto, asi como la capacidad de absorcion de los vasos sanguineos o alveolos pulmonares. hace la prueba y si te sirvio contanos. saludos de argentina.