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Could you send some one you loved to Hell?

psychoblast said:
Why not create a separate place for those people to go that is not a firey pit of eternal torture under control of some sadistic ex-angel?

There IS one! Hell! It has already been said before...Hell DOES have different "layers" to it PB! If you would read what some of us write you would know this by now. I just said above that we dont know exactly how hell works, i dont believe it is the same for everyone. The only common theme is that the presence of God is not with them

The rest of your post is the same ol same ol garbage, we have been over it all a million times...And no, i did not miss the point, i know exactly what you are trying to do. You are the master of twisting things around.
 
Well something I would like to share.. I don't Love God/Jesus became I fear heaven or seek hell. Those 2 are just the end of the line and I'll deal with what I get when I get to it. I love God/Jesus for the sacrifice God made - He came to Earth and died in human flesh to fulfill prophecy and become the last sacrifice (this last sacrifice ended the old law and brought in the new). I also love God because I have been blessed with this existence and I recognize my debt to my creator. Hell and Heaven are not a reward or punishment to me based on "groveling at the feet of my master," because I don't grovel, I love the creator with all my heart out of respect and gratituted.

I would probably be sad if people I cared about went to Hell. I would be sharing that sadness with the Lord, however. The Lord loves all humankind but we are not all destined for Heaven, unfortunately.. otherwise, what would be the point in the grand scheme of things?

Sohi you once again make a lot of good points.
 
Sohi:

So you are saying that the "fire and brimstone" Christian preachers who talk about Hell being a place of eternal suffering where you burn forever in a lake of fire are WRONG? Maybe Hell is just a nice place to hang out, albeit without God or Jesus to hang out with?

One more example of misinformation about Christianity by supposed Christians, which is a great reason why it would be unfair of God to require us mortals surrounded by such misinformation to be able to distill any Christian truth from it all.

Oh, and of course Hell is actually a part of God, and so those in Hell are still in God's presence as is everyone and everything.

~psychoblast~
 
The kind of punishment the Judeo-Christian God dishes out makes no sense at all. First of all, eternal punishment is pointless--don't we punish people to make sure they learn a lesson, and not do it again? Second, any psychologist can tell you that punishment only works if it's "swift, sure, and severe", and the Judeo-Christian God--henceforth, the Demiurge--can at best only mete out two of those.

Of course, there is also the whole problem of forgiveness; what if a person is a violent murderer for most of his life, but suddenly gets religion and becomes saintly? Likewise, what if a person is a good Christian his entire life, but commits a grave sin and dies suddenly? What about kids? When are children old enough to not be considered "innocent by default"? And after all, what about the yak herder in Tibet who has never heard of God or Jesus, yet lives a good life? And exactly *why* does God--I mean, the Demiurge--need to be praised anyway? I've always found it laughable that the Demiurge is made to be this unbelievably great, powerful being that created the entire universe, that nonetheless seeks the constant attention and adoration of a bunch of naked apes--not only in this life, but the next, where they will spend the rest of eternity telling Him how great and wonderful He is. Right.

It was exactly these kind of questions that got me out of the faith. I think that if there is a God, it is far grander and more subtle than the pointlessly vindicative and sophomoric Demiurge. Of course, Christians have an explanation for everything, so we doubters really should save our strength.
 
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PB, Actually, i do think those preachers have taken what we know about hell out of context...Abrahams Bosoom (or, Paradise) was a place in Hell that SAVED souls went PRIOR to Jesus's death and resurrection. During His 3 days being dead Jesus went to Paradise and "freed" them to heaven, where they all reside.

This i all written in the Good Book. :) So it has nothing to do with what someone says to you, all the info is there for you to read YOURSELF. :)
 
Just as there are a thousand denominations of Christianity there are a thousand ideas of what Heaven and Hell are. We won't know until we die. Personally I think that Hell is either deletion of one's soul from reality or being trapped somewhere devoid of contact with the holy spirit. I think that when we die we are once again allowed to feel the direct connection with God that Angels always feel, when we are sent to Heaven we keep that connection, when we go to Hell that connection is severed for ever (either through deletion or some other method), either way it is the lack of the pressence of the Holy Spirit after feeling it again (we know it before life and again after, but not during - atleast not in totality) which is the ultimate punishment..

this idea is presented in the movie Dogma.. Lucifer and other banished angels no longer feel the presence of the holy spirit and are tormented by it eternally.
 
____________`sohi - "This is all bullshit. It should go like this:

If i gave my life up for that person, and was hung on a cross for them, and then they chose on their OWN to deny my sacrifice for them, and by doing so sent themselves to hell, would i be willing to say to them "well, even though i did what i did for you and you chose on your own to deny it happened, i am willing to let you hang out with me in heaven with the rest of those who DID choose to accept my sacrifice." That is what you are asking...If that is the case, then i wouldnt have gone through the brutal death on the cross in the first place!

Also, lets add to it that throughout my loved ones life they had people sent to them by me to tell them that they saw my death and that it was real and that i love them, and want them to come back to me and just acknowledge me - and i will forgive them unconditionally! And my loved one after having an entire life of me calling them and having others telling them to respond to my calls STILL chose to not "believe" in me and my sacrifice, then by their OWN choice i would not interfeer with the consequences they brought upon themselves. It is their life to do with as they wish....

And for the record, the Bible clearly states that those with the most knowledge are judged to higher standards. We are all judged according to what we have been exposed to. A tribal person in Africa who has never heard of Jesus can still be saved, read the book of Romans and you would know this...God judges the heart.

Oh yeah, also add into your ridiculous scenerio that i would have magic powers to read my loved ones heart to know whether they really believed in me or not, even if they said they did, i would know whether they were lying or not.

So given all of that, if they "chose" hell who am i to stop them? Plus, i dont know what "hell" exactly is at this point. I believe hell is just a seperation from God for all eternity, not just some big lake of fire. I believe that is reserved for the demons and most evil people. I dont believe everyone will be tortured in hell, the punishment is not having Gods presence for all eternity."______________________________________________

Sohi That just isn't the real world. Get of your high horse. that reasoning would make sence if somehow God came and proved all this to all of us.

But this is the real world most people just simply don't see any truth in all that mumbo jumbo. Most people are busy just trying to deal with day to day life(pay there bills, get the kids to school, keep the boss happy, stay healthy ect ect) let alone wondering which religion and which sect of that religion might be closest to what God wants, if he does happen to exist or care. Thats the thing about you christians you can't even see how inhuman the crap you just sprouted is. Your so caught up in your own logical circle (all logical is circular) that you are so removed from the way everyone else looks at life. So for God to condemn everyone that doesn't know the right hoops and jump through them to eternal torment is just such an evil belief.

It always strikes me as odd that christians would even want to believe it. I mean honestly if you could somehow make christianity not true which means no one goes to hell but also that you don't go to heaven. Would you? who's the moral one here?
 
No. I'd much rather prefer to live in a world where morality has consequences and there is a greater purpose to all things.
 
psychoblast asked:
Why is it so damned important to Jesus that people acknowledge his sacrifice in order to receive the benefits?

Well...? Doesn't seem all compassionate to me. But doesn't somewhere in the book say "I am a jealous God"? I don't know, but I read that quote somewhere. I could be 100% wrong. If so, just answer PB's question.
 
Belisarius, I think I've mastered the Christian answer.

You need to worship God, praise Him, because it brings you closer to Heaven. Heaven is an idea of all good, something that we cannot comprehend. Everytime we pray, we get closer to Him. The closer to Him we are, the closer we are to Heaven.

I guess worshipping/praising help bring you closer to God, because you're acknowledging his existence and trying to understand it better and putting all your faith in Him.

That close, anyone?
 
^ That's a good answer, but like most of the replies on this thread, it doesn't directly answer the original question.

I think Psychoblast has pointed out, yet another, bible contradiction. Although i do not want to offend or look down upon anyones faith here, I cannot see how anyone can try to defend the bibles literature. It is somewhat flawed. It has not stood against time, progress and science, and one day it may well be nothing more than an interesting part of history.

God may well have existed, Jesus may well have had some spiritual significance to him. The bible may still hold some truths - parts of it still fascinate me and i do not look down upon anyone who preaches it - but at the end of the day, it is not infallible.
 
We are all judged according to what we have been exposed to
cool!
since no one on this planet has ever been exposed to a proof of god's existence, we're all safe! (sorry,
I dont believe everyone will be tortured in hell, the punishment is not having Gods presence for all eternity.
bad news SoHi, you're already in hell then!
Hell DOES have different "layers" to it PB! If you would read what some of us write you would know this by now
oh yeah. i know my planescape by heart
The rest of your post is the same ol same ol garbage
talking to yourself?
I dont even think about loving God because of anything other than what He has done for me to reveal Himself to me!
you're giving everyone else a reason not to love your god here.
 
I just can't understand why people need that spiritual crutch of religion. What makes one better than the other? Nothing. Everyone should be able to think for themselves rather than accept something as true just because they were brainwashed by it since early childhood.
 
psychoblast said:
Would a parent refuse to give their child help, refuse to save that child from pain and torture, just because the child does not ask for the help?

Love is not meant to be conditioned on what is done for YOU. If Jesus conditions the gift of salvation on people jumping through hoops for him, passing some "test" then he clearly does NOT love everyone.
/B]


Does anyone have a legitimate response to this? How do christians reconcile themselves with this? How can they honestly believe that eternal suffering awaits anybody who questions Gods' infinite love?

That is not a trick question. It is not 'twisting things around'. It is the single most troubling aspect of christainity I can think of. It's the point that drove me away from the herd.

I'm not trying to prove christians wrong, I would love to hear a real answer. But I've been waiting years for one, and I doubt I'll hear it anytime soon.
 
Grim said:
I just can't understand why people need that spiritual crutch of religion. What makes one better than the other? Nothing. Everyone should be able to think for themselves rather than accept something as true just because they were brainwashed by it since early childhood.

Fair point but religion is something you think for yourself on - some are taught it through their childhood years - made to believe it as the ultimate truth - but it is up to you if you stay within that. There are those who have had no religion all their lives and then freely choose to make that step into religion

No one is forcing it on you because we are no longer in the times of the spanish inquisition! If people choose to follow religion, then you cant fault them on that. And if people dont choose to follow religion, then you can only say fair enough but its there if you want to be a part of it. Its all just part of spreading the word so that everyone can make an informed decision

Besides - dont you feel that littl ebit happier when you know you have something to focus on, something to believe in, something to look forward to? If people choose God for that, then what's wrong with that? Others might choose beer.
 
^^^^
I have never understood that arguement. Surley the positive or negative psycological influence of a belief, has nothing to do with if it happens to be accurate or not.
Just because believing it may help you doesn't make it so.
 
I think part of this has to do with what you think Hell is. I think Hell is no longer existing. Being removed from the book of life - ie, having your soul die, seems like Hell to me.


how could not existing be hell? who would be in hell? were you in hell before you were born? how about deep sleep?
 
scottahit - no of course not - believing it doesnt make it so, but believing it gives you focus, maybe something to aspire to - a reason to get up in the morning and some people choose to call that motivation God - it makes them happy -it makes us happy and you cant fault that - others may have other focuses or things that drive them forward and you cant fault that either.
 
deviate I believe our soul existed before birth and will exist after death and also while in "deep sleep".. the only way a soul truly dies is if it removed from the book of life - Hell.
 
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