Could addiction be therapeutic?

[Neuroprotection]

A high enough dose of nicotine, not a lot higher than threshold dose will make you feel really sick, enough to not being able to notice any more increase in positive effects.

Before I read what you wrote I intended to ask you what other drugs you tried. Now when you mention you only tried nicotine, your fascination doesn’t seem so weird any-more. We saw that with people only trying dramine or only booze or fixating on only psychedelic they tried and such things. I assure you that while in no way I suggest you to use any drugs, if you will opt in for just one substance, there are countless, as mild, a lot better, less harmful and less addictive. Consider passion flower or blue lotus or many of very light herbs as examples and if you try and research them I’m sure nicotine will stop being so appealing.

Thanks for the advice. I’ve actually been very fascinated about blue Lotus for a very long time. If you’ve ever tried it, do you mind sharing your experience, I found it very interesting given that it’s a dopamine antagonist and a naturally occurring one for that matter.

If you have seen my threads from recent years, you might have seen that I am also a very heavy daily caffeine user and have on many occasions, considered trying traditional psychostimulants like methylphenidate or amphetamine. however, I’ve never got round to it due to fear of their potential psychotomimetic effects which I have heard are as of now irreversible in some cases. nevertheless, if a mechanism of reversing psychosis which is looking increasingly likely due to scientific advancements in understanding of its mechanisms, I would happily ditch caffeine in exchange for a proper stimulant like amphetamine.

In regards to nicotine, I rapidly develop tolerance to its nauseating effects but seem to paradoxically develop sensitisation to its euphoria/rewarding effects and as I’ve mentioned previously, I benefit from the emotional numbness it seems to provide. sorry, but due to my vision problems, I often forgot if I’ve posted links, but I intended to post a link regarding A study showing that nicotine enhanced rewarding stimuli in the environment that were unrelated to drugs.

Thanks again for your responses, you always provide good and balanced advice. if you have any free time, please feel free to check out my new thread, entitled“Helpful substances in the fight against anhedonia“.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Though I’ve probably not mentioned this clearly before, nicotine seems to be a drug which is intermediate between caffeine and traditional psychostimulants. for example, with caffeine, it shares the properties of being a relatively mild CNS stimulant capable of disrupting sleep and slightly lifting mood. in one who is not dependent, there is really no come down whatsoever. on the other hand, it differs from caffeine, in terms of having a much stronger rewarding effect with a strong urge to repeat at least in my experience. Interestingly, I never noticed an immediate urge to redose for many hours up to a day after taking my first hit of nicotine. however, after the first day, I would wake up with a strong urge to take nicotine again and would increasingly enjoy it after repeated use. Although I’ve never tried traditional psychostimulants, this is something I’ve heard occurs in some people after use of cocaine or amphetamine. apologies if I’ve repeated this before, but after doing some research, I’ve discovered that some people have actually recommended using nicotine as an alternative stimulant to caffeine. of course, that is something I’m planning to do after I become financially independent. people have long used High dose nicotine as a stimulant in the form of snuff or chewing tobacco and employers in Victorian Britain gave it to the workers to encourage productivity, not so much through cognitive enhancement, but rather through suppression of frustration/agitation.
As a wakefulness promoter, i’ve personally noticed that it seems to be far more gentle than caffeine in terms of physical and mental stimulation and providing I have a tolerance to it, I can use it in the evening with no problem. this makes sense when one considers pharmacokinetics. nicotine has a half life of about two hours but pharmacodynamics should also be considered. nicotine induces rapid desensitisation of the nicotinic receptors meaning that, even after a single dose, it’s affects are self limiting. on the other hand, caffeine has a half-life of at least five hours but under a range of circumstances can hang around in the system for much longer. caffeine metabolites include several Active CNS stimulants like theophylline, theobromine and paraxanthine. this is why experts recommend avoiding caffeine after 12 noon due to the risk of sleep disturbances. actually, I’ve had many sleepless nights and ruined my sleep pattern on countless occasions, due to accidental or careless ingestion of high caffeine beverages in the evening.
Make no mistake, nicotine taken before bed can certainly ruin your sleep especially when taking through products that deliver high doses like chewing tobacco. however, I have used nicotine many times at around 5/6 pm with no problem Going to bed at around 11 pm.
As mentioned above, I’ve never tried traditional amphetamine type psychostimulants but from what I’ve heard, some of them have ridiculously long half lives with perhaps methylphenidate and cocaine being exceptions.

 

[Merek]

I’d say even addiction to harder drugs can be a therapeutic experience if you decide to try and get sober it can be a challenging experience but if you can overcome it you’ll come out a much stronger person then who you were before.

 

[Xorkoth]

Sometimes an addiction is a relative necessity to get through life. It's a blurred line between addiction and hobbies or interests, really.

I don't know how i would've coped without weed ages 20-30.

I can imagine it's also altered my brain chemistry in certain ways. I'm no wizard about this but i read one study claiming that chronic THC causes upregulation of serotonin receptors. Now that i'm sober again, i feel really in tune and in touch with pretty much everything except for my own emotional baggage which is shrinking across the horizon.

I suppose I am addicted to playing music. I consider that a positive in, indeed, the best thing about, my life. But I imagine you mean drugs. In which case I would say that, no, addiction to drugs is never a net positive thing, IMO. Eventually it becomes something that has anywhere from a slightly negative to a profoundly negative impact on your life.

I'm not saying drug use is bad, just that being addicted to drug is.

 

[Merek]

I suppose I am addicted to playing music. I consider that a positive in, indeed, the best thing about, my life. But I imagine you mean drugs. In which case I would say that, no, addiction to drugs is never a net positive thing, IMO. Eventually it becomes something that has anywhere from a slightly negative to a profoundly negative impact on your life.

I'm not saying drug use is bad, just that being addicted to drug is.

Have you ever had drug addiction?

 

[stardust10]

I think abstinence doesn't work for everyone. I was miserable being totally abstinent from all drugs including alcohol. Then again life factors in to this too but it always does lol so it's just an opinion. I look forward to a session when I can but I know it's also very easy for me to slip into full blown addiction and be at it everyday again so it can feel like walking a tight-rope. But yeh abstinence ain't for me. I guess I'm technically addicted to weed but I'm fine with it for now and believe that if say I ever fell pregnant some time in future I would stop it immediately. But I don't know if my addiction to it is good or not because I've had it most of my life since being a teenager. I'm gonna try cutting down in fact due to cost and trying to lose a bit of weight. Suppose weed addiction might be good for folk wanting/needing to gain some extra pounds

 

[Merek]

I think abstinence doesn't work for everyone. I was miserable being totally abstinent from all drugs including alcohol. Then again life factors in to this too but it always does lol so it's just an opinion. I look forward to a session when I can but I know it's also very easy for me to slip into full blown addiction and be at it everyday again so it can feel like walking a tight-rope. But yeh abstinence ain't for me. I guess I'm technically addicted to weed but I'm fine with it for now and believe that if say I ever fell pregnant some time in future I would stop it immediately. But I don't know if my addiction to it is good or not because I've had it most of my life since being a teenager. I'm gonna try cutting down in fact due to cost and trying to lose a bit of weight. Suppose weed addiction might be good for folk wanting/needing to gain some extra pounds

I’m trying to go completely abstinent tbh (with a few exceptions maybe lighter drugs once a month) it’s the best move for me in my life while doing this though I’ve been micro dosing LSD (which is harmless and non addictive) so I’m not completely miserable during the process it’s normal to feel miserable during abstinence if life isn’t going well for you try and make it more eventful you’ll never know if abstinence will benefit you or not unless you atleast commit to it for 6 months as it can take a while for your brain to re adjust to being sober.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Thanks for the advice. I’ve actually been very fascinated about blue Lotus for a very long time. If you’ve ever tried it, do you mind sharing your experience, I found it very interesting given that it’s a dopamine antagonist and a naturally occurring one for that matter.

I had plenty of blue-lotus during few months I had got it as a gift. Times I did it I was mostly smoking bowl after bowl of it with or instead weed and when used alone I would sum up effects as slight, immediate calming effect (and somehow satisfying part of impulsion to smoke weed as I was huge stoner back than), but a very short experience. When made into tea I again got a slight calming effects but it lasted a lot longer, something like what I think people who are not using drugs experience from camomile if that makes sense. Unfortunately I never tried preparing blue-louts wine and most people say it’s best used in that form.

 

[Neuroprotection]

came across an interesting video on YouTube which seem to back up what I was saying earlier. i’ll post a link when I find it, I think it was about masochistic personality and it’s possible links to trauma. The presenter explained that addictions, whether behavioural or substance related, are a common coping mechanism for long-term psychological stress or depression. this is because, similar to what I was saying, they give some direction on where our thoughts should go and where our attention should be focused. of course, in severe addictions, this leads to catastrophic affects as all the individuals attention is focused on drugs alone. on the other hand, mild addictions like that to nicotine or even frequent sexual behaviour, which don’t impair cognition, preoccupy the mind and give less time for negative thoughts to ruminate.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

That’s true, but it doesn’t make addiction a good coping mechanism and less so one should chose willingly, imo

 

[crazyhairman]

Yea, in the longest shittiest way. Like living through a war makes you not take your life for granted.

I never truly loved life until years of sober living.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Yea, in the longest shittiest way. Like living through a war makes you not take your life for granted.

I never truly loved life until years of sober living.

I see your point, that’s probably why most people fail in their battle against addiction because they give up too early. not to take away from the extreme hardships recovering drug addicts Face, it’s only natural that most lose hope before they ever see the benefits of sobriety. we must also remember that at its core, addiction is biological with genetic and very long-lasting, epigenetic changes involved. laid on top of this are the complex interactions between these biological factors with personal and environmental factors, including human behaviour, thought patterns, personality, social circumstances and stress levels amongst many others. The type of drug and its status within that society also plays a major role.

With all this in mind, I do feel that in some cases addiction might serve as a coping mechanism, which, despite potentially devastating consequences could help people pull through difficult times. as I’ve highlighted with my own personal case, during periods of my life where I was smoking and vaping the odd cigarette/Electronic cigarette, sublingually administering significant amounts of very high nicotine E-liquid, chewing pipe tobacco or 26 mg nicotine patches I was so much more resilient. these were times of my life when I Felt I truly needed something chemically pleasurable to rely on and look forward too. as I’ve said before, my research shows that nicotine is highly addictive, but does not cause major cognitive impairment. The type of drug really does make a difference, especially psychological effects.

 

[Hexenstahl]

I have to admit that this is quite an interesting, intellectually stimulating thought.

One thing is for sure: boredom was absolutely non-existent when I was a dope fiend lol. You're constantly looking for ways to make money. Drug use only comprised like 5% of my time, whereas the other 95% were all put into devising schemes on how to defraud people on Ebay (and I was actually quite successful as I made thousands of dollars each month). No shit, I was literally writing strategy papers and execution protocols in Microsoft Office Word on what to do step-by-step to establish enough trust and get those dollars out of people's pockets. I'm sure I could have sold this as a guide on some darknet fraudware forum or something lol. "MAKE $6000 a month using this simple trick and never worry about how to pay your drug dealer EVER again!!! Lifetime support, plus updates on methods, tricks and tips included!!! Make sure to grab it today before it's sold out! First 10 buyers will get a bonus guide on how to sell fake Rolex Watches without triggering the AFS (anti fraud system) of Ebay!!!".

I tell ya, say what you want about heroin addiction but you'll never ever have to deal with boredom again lol
Seriously though, I regret the criminal things I did and if I had the opportunity I would like to apologize to all the victims and give them their money back if I could.

I have to admit that there is one good thing that has resulted from my opioid addiction since I'm in maintenance treatment: I have the time and developed a passion for chemistry and neuropharmacology. I'm studying chemistry as a hobby but with the seriousness of an actual student who embarks on a career as a chemist. If I wasn't so obsessed with opioids I probably wouldn't have the focus, motivation and dedication to study this subject because I plan on researching the chemical nature of this substance class as deeply as possible. Who knows, maybe I will discover something? Maybe one day I will, through various interconnected, strange circumstances, be able to work in a lab and synthesize a novel opioid uniting the best qualities of every opioid? The euphoria of Hydromorphone, the duration of action of Levomethadone, the lipophilia of Heroin and the analgetic potential of fentanyl making it the best painkiller. Ha, one can dream

Another thing is my underlying mental health condition. I suffer from a serious form of major depressive disorder. It became so bad by the end (before I discovered opioids) that I developed a symptom that is known as mutism (the inability to speak). I literally didn't have enough drive and motivation to open my freaking mouth to speak to people. I was lying in bed all day just wasting away. I was seriously contemplating and meticulously planning my suicide because I just didn't see any point in continuing like this because this was not life, it was a state of death. But when I started taking opioids I turned into another human being. It's like I was a completely different person. I started actually doing things, I started eating, completing projects, going out, finishing my bachelors degree, etc.
So yeah, I gladly accept my addiction if that means that I can actually live life instead of remain in a state of death. So to summarize it: my opioid addiction has not only successfully treated my mental health disorder, but actually given me the motivation and interest/passion, if not obession with various scientific fields with a heavy emphasis on opioids and how they interact with us, how they are synthesized, ways to improve opioids, the mechanisms of tolerance in our brain and how it can be prevented (yeah there is an actual substance that prevents tolerance when taken in microgram doses), and pharmacology in general. Even though I have studied finance, my real interest lies in science.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I have to admit that this is quite an interesting, intellectually stimulating thought.

One thing is for sure: boredom was absolutely non-existent when I was a dope fiend lol. You're constantly looking for ways to make money. Drug use only comprised like 5% of my time, whereas the other 95% were all put into devising schemes on how to defraud people on Ebay (and I was actually quite successful as I made thousands of dollars each month). No shit, I was literally writing strategy papers and execution protocols in Microsoft Office Word on what to do step-by-step to establish enough trust and get those dollars out of people's pockets. I'm sure I could have sold this as a guide on some darknet fraudware forum or something lol. "MAKE $6000 a month using this simple trick and never worry about how to pay your drug dealer EVER again!!! Lifetime support, plus updates on methods, tricks and tips included!!! Make sure to grab it today before it's sold out! First 10 buyers will get a bonus guide on how to sell fake Rolex Watches without triggering the AFS (anti fraud system) of Ebay!!!".

I tell ya, say what you want about heroin addiction but you'll never ever have to deal with boredom again lol
Seriously though, I regret the criminal things I did and if I had the opportunity I would like to apologize to all the victims and give them their money back if I could.

I have to admit that there is one good thing that has resulted from my opioid addiction since I'm in maintenance treatment: I have the time and developed a passion for chemistry and neuropharmacology. I'm studying chemistry as a hobby but with the seriousness of an actual student who embarks on a career as a chemist. If I wasn't so obsessed with opioids I probably wouldn't have the focus, motivation and dedication to study this subject because I plan on researching the chemical nature of this substance class as deeply as possible. Who knows, maybe I will discover something? Maybe one day I will, through various interconnected, strange circumstances, be able to work in a lab and synthesize a novel opioid uniting the best qualities of every opioid? The euphoria of Hydromorphone, the duration of action of Levomethadone, the lipophilia of Heroin and the analgetic potential of fentanyl making it the best painkiller. Ha, one can dream

Another thing is my underlying mental health condition. I suffer from a serious form of major depressive disorder. It became so bad by the end (before I discovered opioids) that I developed a symptom that is known as mutism (the inability to speak). I literally didn't have enough drive and motivation to open my freaking mouth to speak to people. I was lying in bed all day just wasting away. I was seriously contemplating and meticulously planning my suicide because I just didn't see any point in continuing like this because this was not life, it was a state of death. But when I started taking opioids I turned into another human being. It's like I was a completely different person. I started actually doing things, I started eating, completing projects, going out, finishing my bachelors degree, etc.
So yeah, I gladly accept my addiction if that means that I can actually live life instead of remain in a state of death. So to summarize it: my opioid addiction has not only successfully treated my mental health disorder, but actually given me the motivation and interest/passion, if not obession with various scientific fields with a heavy emphasis on opioids and how they interact with us, how they are synthesized, ways to improve opioids, the mechanisms of tolerance in our brain and how it can be prevented (yeah there is an actual substance that prevents tolerance when taken in microgram doses), and pharmacology in general. Even though I have studied finance, my real interest lies in science.

Thanks so much for checking out this thread. assuming you have a readily available supply of drugs, do you feel that actually being on the drug and looking forward to your next hit can actually help you push through boring mental work, even if that work is not directly related to you getting the next hit of drugs. also, I would be very interested to get your opinion on nicotine as a stimulant, since that was the drug I was addicted to and would happily get addicted to again. very strangely, I never develop major tolerance to the good feelings of nicotine, but more importantly, constantly being on nicotine just made me feel like a better person. yes, I wouldn’t always get a huge rush after a few months of daily nicotine use, but then again, I wasn’t looking for that anyway. I just like the feeling of being resilient to stress and resistant to boredom.

I also wanted to highlight something about euphoria and the difficulties in recreating it. It’s not just that we don’t fully understand the specific targets/Brain circuits Involved, but we don’t even have a complete understanding of what exactly reward and euphoria are. there are different theories on The two main aspects of reward, liking and wanting, as well as differences of opinion as to which component is more important in drug reward or general happiness.

 

[Hexenstahl]

assuming you have a readily available supply of drugs, do you feel that actually being on the drug and looking forward to your next hit can actually help you push through boring mental work, even if that work is not directly related to you getting the next hit of drugs.

Well, I believe this depends entirely on how much I take. The cool thing about opioids is that small doses motivate and stimulate me to do stuff, but not in this antsy and wired way. The kind of stimulation that opioids give is very mellow and feels natural. On mid to high doses however I'm not functional for obvious reasons.

also, I would be very interested to get your opinion on nicotine as a stimulant

Honestly, I find nicotine to be the most pointless substance ever because it doesn't make me high at all. It's simply an herb that makes one addicted for no reason at all and eats away my money. That little "rush" is not even worth to be called that way lol. It's like doing dope without getting high but still getting addicted to it lol. I have started smoking something called "Knaster" instead that is sold as a tobacco replacement to get off the nicotine habit.

I agree with you on the euphoria part. I mean people can't even agree on defining euphoria. I know people coming from MDMA who tried a line of heroin and didn't consider that feel to be euphoric, because they were expecting an in your face type of euphoria. That's funny because I don't consider MDMA to be euphoric since it feels so artificial and like it has been pushed on me. Opioid euphoria instead feels very natural. It doesn't feel like an intoxicant at all. This is what makes the quest for euphoria so hard, because we all have different ideas of what that emotion is supposed to feel like.

 

[ageingpartyfiend]

@Neuroprotection

just picking up on your nicotine wonderings - I too found it an absolutely pointless, harmful and destructive drug, ugh. So hard to quit too, it's fucked up.

One thing though which really was crystal clear (on reflection, years after the event) is that my ADHD symptoms became much more pronounced and way more problematic after I had finally managed to stop smoking that shit.

So, the stimulant aspect of nicotine was definitely helping the adhd stuff a lot. Still, shitty awful drug.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I think drug completely blocking euphoria could be very harmful or even kill a person. I believe it is so as I don't think there's a single way drugs produce euphoria and that it's not only neurological but also psychological phenomena. Some will say there's really no such distinction (neurological/psychological) but I wouldn't bet on it. Think about drug induced stimulation that could be described and subdivided further as for example wakefulness and motivation or restlessness and edgy energy or whatever...those and a lot of other kinds of stimulation in all kinds of combination can be experienced from almost all classes of drugs. psychedelics can be very uplifting, opiates can be uplifting, hell even benzos and weed can and are stimulating for some. I personally almost never get really uplifting (that's stimulating too, ain't it) effects of weed but out of benzos, etizolam at times made me more energized and active than even some typical stimulants. I imagine stopping every kind of stimulation produced by any kind of drug would result in death, and I'm pretty sure same would be if all relaxation properties of all drugs were blocked. In a same way I really don't think there's an universal way to block euphoric effects (to mask or counter them would be another story!) as euphoria from non-drug causes, from psychedelics, emphatogens, opiates, dissos, stims etc all feels very different to me. I might use word euphoria to describe great feeling I get from some drug but in reality sometimes that feeling is so different that it would probably better suite to use other words for every specific feeling. Like psychedelics can on occasions produce what might be described like pure ecstasy while opiates produce warm feeling of content etc.
I hope I make some sense.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I think drug completely blocking euphoria could be very harmful or even kill a person. I believe it is so as I don't think there's a single way drugs produce euphoria and that it's not only neurological but also psychological phenomena. Some will say there's really no such distinction (neurological/psychological) but I wouldn't bet on it. Think about drug induced stimulation that could be described and subdivided further as for example wakefulness and motivation or restlessness and edgy energy or whatever...those and a lot of other kinds of stimulation in all kinds of combination can be experienced from almost all classes of drugs. psychedelics can be very uplifting, opiates can be uplifting, hell even benzos and weed can and are stimulating for some. I personally almost never get really uplifting (that's stimulating too, ain't it) effects of weed but out of benzos, etizolam at times made me more energized and active than even some typical stimulants. I imagine stopping every kind of stimulation produced by any kind of drug would result in death, and I'm pretty sure same would be if all relaxation properties of all drugs were blocked. In a same way I really don't think there's an universal way to block euphoric effects (to mask or counter them would be another story!) as euphoria from non-drug causes, from psychedelics, emphatogens, opiates, dissos, stims etc all feels very different to me. I might use word euphoria to describe great feeling I get from some drug but in reality sometimes that feeling is so different that it would probably better suite to use other words for every specific feeling. Like psychedelics can on occasions produce what might be described like pure ecstasy while opiates produce warm feeling of content etc.
I hope I make some sense.

Thank you for your response. just to clarify, none of us are discussing blocking euphoria. rather, we are interested in targeting those pathways so that euphoria and other reward related effects can be continuously/sustainably induced indefinitely. This would be very useful in the treatment of many psychiatric disorders. I am fiercely opposed to the current mainstream scientific line of thinking towards addiction, which is to shut down the reward pathway. we’ve already seen how naltrexone implants or high-dose tablets perform very poorly in treating addiction. low-dose naltrexone or ultra low-dose naltrexone are a different story and their mechanism is entirely different.

 

[Neuroprotection]

@Neuroprotection

just picking up on your nicotine wonderings - I too found it an absolutely pointless, harmful and destructive drug, ugh. So hard to quit too, it's fucked up.

One thing though which really was crystal clear (on reflection, years after the event) is that my ADHD symptoms became much more pronounced and way more problematic after I had finally managed to stop smoking that shit.

So, the stimulant aspect of nicotine was definitely helping the adhd stuff a lot. Still, shitty awful drug.

Thanks for this. I strongly suspect I may have undiagnosed ADHD/ADD which contributes to my extreme procrastination and difficulty progressing in life. i’ve talked about this in other posts and created a thread about it, quite a few people pointed this out as a possibility. however, others have described my extremely positive experiences with nicotine as very unusual, which might be true in light of The relatively neutral or negative experiences of most others on here.
It’s interesting when you really have mentioned, nicotine is strangely addictive despite being minimally psychoactive. I want to read a Study that attributed this bizarre affect to the ability of nicotine to strongly affect the striatum more than other brain regions associated with recreational drug affects. This makes nicotine minimally pleasurable for most people. However, it can dramatically enhance reward learning from the environment. Therefore, administration of nicotine could make naturally rewarding or drug-induced experiences much more salient and probably much more pleasurable. in this manner, nicotine could be quite dangerous as it may facilitate addictions to both natural and substance induced rewards. however, the same effects probably allow nicotine to help people like me with procrastination and other motivational deficits. I just wish Snuss wasn’t banned in the UK. Apparently, it is very low in carcinogens and it reportedly doesn’t cause mouth cancer in the Swedish population who use it heavily. I really want to try the Siberia extreme cold brand, which contains 45 mg of nicotine per pouch. The pouches are reportedly invisible when placed at the side of the cheek.
Nicotine does a much better job of getting me through hard work than caffeine does plus it’s much more fun for me. it might be my biology, but either way, I think I’m very lucky that I am able to enjoy nicotine so much. it’s just a shame that i’m not yet fully independent and I live amongst a family who would never approve of such nicotine use. I guess I could do it anyway and ignore them if they find out, but I know it would cause them a lot of pain. furthermore, I might be soon getting married and also my family do want to teach me to become fully independent. Therefore, God willing I’ll soon have the opportunity to enjoy as much nicotine as I want.