Coping with terrible panic??

[cire113]

I wouldnt drink alcohol with the meds you are on man; definitely not.. plus trust me alcohol will make your anxiety worse..

I cant imagine your feeling that bad and on 20mg lexapro(best med i ever taken for panic/anxiety) and avanza(strong as fuck TCA)!! and getting atleast 30 mins of cardio exercise every day..

If i were you i would double your physical excerise daily and see what hapepns... I mean shit man; i hope your exaggerating; Are you eating good food balanced meals and nutritious?(mega important) Getting enough sleep? I'm not downplaying how you feel but god dam man that sounds horrible.. Do you take multivitamin?

Beta-block would def help with the physical anxiety for sure;

Fuck benzo dont go back to them..

I got more advice for you keep doing the shit that makes you feel uncomfortable KEEP doing to day after day; keep facing it man; accept it dont fight those feelings; Humilate yourself if thats what you fear; who gives a shit what people think; I can tell you they probably arent thinking what you think they are;

Usually the more i do something the more comfortable i become;; If i face myself to do the things I dont want to do over and over i end up realizing its not a big deal; easier said than done though for sure

Do 30 pushups right before you enter class lol

I dont know what else to say; I'm no dr, or therapist, i may be 100% wrong but this has been my experience with some of this

fuck i know how bad that shit feels

 

[RobotRipping]

When i first quit benzos I was using a mix of valerian root/passion flower/hops and it worked surprisingly well. They were in pill form, still had a nasty smell but I could swallow them quickly enough. I'd usually burp somewhere afterwards though and yeah it's gross lol. For the OP, these kinds of mixes are worth a shot at least.

I have valeric acid just sitting in a cabinet; the taste and smell of that stuff is awful although you only need a tablespoon or so. When i mean awful, i really mean it, I can handle cactus tea/kratom tea/ cwe codeine and they are pretty disgusting to drink.

As the poster above mentions exposure therapy may be effective. You have to learn new ways of coping and recognize certain thought patterns that lead to panic. If i saw someone panicking I would not think they were a weirdo, I'd have some serious empathy and anyone with a heart would too I think. I know the feeling though, like Creep by Radiohead...i'm a creep, i'm a weirdo, what the hell am I doing here? I don't belong here... I used to just impulsively force myself into situations and then i'd be stuck there and have to work it out. I think it actually helped me develop better social skills, still felt awkward though.

 

[suessmayr]

I resent the implication that because I'm on 2 anti-depressants I'm either soft or dishonest.

I exercise for 30min every weekday morning and for 60min on the weekends. I get minimum 8 hrs sleep and I eat well. I've read several books on panic recently and have been forcing myself to attend all classes. It's strange because I'm in 5th year uni and during years 1-4 never had any problems with class attendance. But I guess for most of that time I was on benzos/opiates.

I've noticed that I'm getting slightly better in lectures. Tutes are a whole different story. In lectures I can usually just stare at the floor and breathe real carefully until I stop sweating/shaking and feeling sick. In tutes it's alot harder though as everyone is so close together and the situation is alot more interactive/intense.

Do beta-blockers take weeks to start working like anti-depressants do?

 

[Ixchellian]

..... it seems to be a combination of claustrophobia and social anxiety. It is totally bizarre as I am a confident and gregarious person. It has happened before but never so bad. Whenever I'm around large numbers of people, or loud noises, or am in a small space like a classroom or a lift, I get all the symptoms of a panic attack.....

Yep...... I know that feeling.....
But instead of a panic, I start getting a *very* short fuse.... there isn't a flight-mode in my case, especially when I'm cornered. And just the simple fact that I cannot realistically remove the perceived threat nor retreat from it, makes it even tougher.
My trick? I scan sectors. As long as I keep my eyes and head moving and examining my surroundings, I don't get a vulnerable mindset.

As far as psych meds go..... all I'd recommend is to not mix any kind of herbal supplement with those meds that you may try. Valerian & St. johns Wort in particular.... in fact, lay off of all extraneous supplements & substances while getting used to your new med. No sense in muddying the ol waters any more than normal

 

[suessmayr]

I found in a lecture today that it was actually much more stressful looking around, at the professor or at students. It seemed to help most to just stare at the floor or at my notes. I never thought this was about "escape" but I noticed today, at one point when the prof randomly shut the door, that my anxiety totally intensified.

I'm really worried about the tute I left last time. I am certain that people knew something was up with me. I was bathed in sweat and left and came back twice. Fucking pathetic and embarrassing. This thing seems to be situational, so that if I've been 'ok' in a situation before, it is unlikely that it will induce panic therafter. That is why I'll probably get wasted before the next tute. So that, after that, I won't have to think "last time I piked and embarrassed myself".

I emailed my tutor today and vaguely apologised and said that I sometimes struggle in small spaces...this is like humiliation after humiliation.

 

[panic in paradise]

your "higher-mind" is aware of your reactions and this is a massive step. atm this is essentially involuntary, being harbored in your "deeper/sub thoughts" - maybe - ask and let the question echo deep inside you. what reason do i have, and how have i learned to feel this "fear" or lack of control being in a closed off area? or what ever other situational settings set you off

IDK, but i would ask myself if there was something i was suppressing, being allowed to function like a magnet, drawing thoughts, emotions and energy away in a form of self-defense. sounds far fetched maybe, but this is a common schematic for such reactions. with a decent therapist, psych, or time maybe - picking through and identifying situational triggers, and then identifying the source of the triggers, can be done and carried with you for other circumstances, large or small, in varying contexts.


you are taking the right steps, and doing what you need to -- keep moving.
___________________________________
Edit:
i dont necessarily mean any large traumatic events, im thinking of stuff like being locked in the bathroom as a child. or having a parent that would leave them in the car for extended periods of time going in and out of stores or what ever.

 

[suessmayr]

Lol I was always left in the car but I don't think that has anything to do with this.

I see with great clarity that I'm not averse to people, interactions or small spaces - the aversion is to having a panic attack in front of people, during an interaction or in a small space. This is hard to challenge. How can I convince myself that there is nothing wrong with sweating absurdly in situations like this? People notice, whatever I tell myself, I know I look like a fool. That is just common sense. So I'm finding it hard to really make progress with CBT. I can tell myself, 'nobody cares' or 'I don't care', but the facts are that (1) people do notice, and (2) it is devastating for me when they do.

 

[arctica]

in addition to the beta-blockers, there are other non-addictive psych meds for anxiety, like Atarax (an antihistamine) and Neurontin (anticonvulsant), also some antipsychotics and alpha-blockers. You have a lot of options, just let your doctor know that you're uncomfortable with taking benzos.

 

[suessmayr]

I've asked my doc about Gabapentin and Lyrica several times. The first time he said they're not really used in Australia. The second time, when I suggested that they are, he said that the evidence for their efficacy is uncompelling and that he's never prescribed them for that reason. He said they're rarely used in Australia.

I think I'll ask about beta-blockers. I'm attracted to the idea of these as (I think?) they don't take weeks to start working like most psych meds?

 

[bubblefaith]

no, there effects are instantaneous once in your system. generally used as blood pressure medication (watch out when standing up//exercising, low blood pressure can cause fainting etc..) works great for ACTUAL physical symptoms(when i was on them i had attacks where i thought my heart was going to fucking EXPLODE, alas, when the nurse checked it i was normal), not so well for delusions.

 

[arctica]

Yeah, beta blockers work fast and are relatively safe. A lot of people use them for public speaking/stage fright. I think the idea is that relieve a lot of the physical symptoms of panic by blocking adrenaline/noradrenaline, so you don't have a racing heartbeat, sweating, shortness of breath, etc. so things don't snowball into a full blown panic attack. They start working in about 15-30 minutes, and you can take them on an as needed basis.

 

[arctica]

Also, you might have more luck speaking with a psychiatrist rather than your general practitioner -- they're more likely to be up on the off-label uses of drugs for psychiatric issues, whereas your GP might be more comfortable prescribing medications that are FDA-approved for anxiety.

 

[panic in paradise]

the beta-blockers are sure compelling - and it might be best you dont start with Gabapentin and Lyrica, they are "addictive" physically and can have other complications similar to BZD's.

i would try it! if your doctor feels good about it and there are no complications in any other aspects - etc. do continue with the CBT and what not, while you have this to help you concentrate on what you need to, as well.

 

[Bojangles69]

Well not everyone realizes this but hypertension and highblood pressure are two very massive culprits when it comes to panic disorder/panic attacks. Like people said inderal will help but there are still better ways you can address it and I honestly think if a person is put on the right combination of beta-blockers and calcium channel blockers, that their panic attacks can be largely controlled w/out the more useless and addictive "medicines" like xanax. Xanax never made any sense to me once I learned the biology of panic and adrenaline. All it really does is get you high in the hopes of making you forget the fact you get panicky, but it has a very limited type of effect on the heart. It will depress your CNS but that is not what is exactly needed to control panic. You need to depress adrenaline (betablockers as mentioned) and you must ALWAYS and I mean ALWAYS monitor your blood pressure. Panic disorder/anxiety raises blood pressure over the years and makes you even more prone to hypertension, then hypertension will increase the frequency of panic attacks. If its not addressed at the source, and some dr just feeds you benzos for years and years, its likely to just get worse imo.

I've read many reputable studies addressing norepinephrine and epinephrine (noradrenaline and adrenaline) as the main source of panic attacks. Gaba and other neurotransmitters can exacerbate anxiety (lack of) but they are simply not apart of the "fight or flight" mechanism that is evolutionary wired into our bodies to makes us feel panic in the face of a stimuli. Problem is we are outdated machines. And some peope have very sensitized adrenal systems. If you want to control panic the right way imo learn how to test your blood pressure. Even the wds alone from sub are so much adrenal related and thats what really aggravates the anxiety. Floor your adrenaline with inderal or atenlenol and get something like norvase or cozaar as a calcium channel blocker to really put the floor on all the nervous energy. I realize how emotionally rooted anxiety can be but I will be a firm believer till the day I die that anxiety is mainly a physical problem with your biology. You simply can not get anxious or panicky when on both betablockers and calcium channel blockers, but on heavy doses of benzodiazepenes I was still able to have panic attacks. People are different but our biologies are still principally the same. And I think a lot more people really need to start understanding this fact. I also have a ton of negative things to say about using GABA medicines to treat anxiety, but it would take too long to explain on the reasons why. It has to do more with how anxiety starts. Then a doctor puts you on xanax to treat what is most likely not a GABA deficiency but an adrenal issue, then takes you off x benzo, and now you have a GABA deficiency plus a longstanding adrenal issue which imo was very likely the initial source of your anxiety. You can learn this very simply by reading through a bs medical text. Any medical text will say it. Read about panic and anxiety and what mechanisms in our body are wired to make us feel it. Your body doesn't say "I need to make X person panic (in an associated survival setting [gun] or even misassociated survival settings [speech]) let me stop making GABA" it says "I need to make him panic so I'm going to surge his blood with adrenaline". Just because GABA medicines help doesn't mean they should be used

 

[suessmayr]

I have been off benzos for a while and don't - won't - get back on them. I'm just really at my wit's end with this shit. It was humiliating and depressing having to bail from that tute. I can't begin to explain how upset and pathetic it makes me feel. And this happens to me every day. I have between 1 and 5 serious panic attacks daily, and the rest of the time I'm just intensely anxious, even when I'm alone. It's like being constantly skat and I can never relax or do things I would otherwise enjoy.

I'm going to ask my shrink tomorrow about beta-blockers and calcium channel blockers. I am concerned about the weight-gain aspect as I gained quite a bit of weight when I was on bupe, and am only just beginning to lose it again. And avanza increases my apetite already.

It would be great to be able to just take a beta-blocker before stressful events, rather than having to add another medication to my regimen.

 

[Bojangles69]

I have been off benzos for a while and don't - won't - get back on them. I'm just really at my wit's end with this shit. It was humiliating and depressing having to bail from that tute. I can't begin to explain how upset and pathetic it makes me feel. And this happens to me every day. I have between 1 and 5 serious panic attacks daily, and the rest of the time I'm just intensely anxious, even when I'm alone. It's like being constantly skat and I can never relax or do things I would otherwise enjoy.

I'm going to ask my shrink tomorrow about beta-blockers and calcium channel blockers. I am concerned about the weight-gain aspect as I gained quite a bit of weight when I was on bupe, and am only just beginning to lose it again. And avanza increases my apetite already.

It would be great to be able to just take a beta-blocker before stressful events, rather than having to add another medication to my regimen.

Great thats good to hear about the benzos.

But when you say this happens several times a day I'm curious a bit more about what you mean. It use to happen to me basically the same way and most of my triggers were social in nature. From just getting out of my car in a parking lot and walking around to having simple conversations with people or even worse giving speeches which at that time was literally impossible to do. I always found a way to leave and I often looked and felt like an idiot in the process.

When the anxiety begins though I'm curious what it feels like. Like in your body. Do you become hyperstimulated? Get tight painful zaps in your chest? Shaking? Sweating? Heartracing and all that fun stuff? Because that would be a very big clue that your adrenaline is firing off all over the place and that fixing that would be one of the best decisions you can make. Beta blockers will put a complete lock on your adrenal system which will make it impossible for your heart to race past a certain point. And I've been taking them as needed for at least 8 years now and haven't gained a pound on them. Bupe however caused me to gain a ton of weight, although daily laxatives help a lot now to keep the calories moving out. But at any rate so many people suffer from chronic high blood pressure/hypertension and either have no idea, or have a fairly good clue and DO NOT take it seriously untill they go through years of panic attacks and decide to finally get it controlled.

I've taken thousands of drugs/pharmaceuticals for my panic disorder and I still keep inderal as #1 on my list.
#2 is either cozaar or norvase (on norvase as of now). These are blood pressure meds but have a very potent effect on the heart and panic/anxiety. They will dilate your arteries which tremendously lightens the workload on the heart. This means when you panic, your heart does not have to race to catch up with what your adrenaline is doing to your body. Then inderal basically just stops the adrenaline in its tracks, but inderal does not really have the ability to calm the heart like calcium channel blockers (thats not totally true its just a bit more complex to explain). Its still great in what it does but for more serious cases a combination of each is really the best.

Definitely talk to your doctor about it. And also not sure what your visits with him look like but for any type of panic patient they absolutely NEED to get their blood pressure test every single time they walk into a drs office. I learned to do it myself over the years because I've noticed my blood pressure is directly proportional to the amount of panic attacks I have. If its 180/100 I can have 8-10 panic attacks a day and will basically be in a state of intense anxiety all day. If its more like 140/90 I may just have 2 or 3 that day. It also allows me to medicate and treat my condition with much greater accuracy. Like today my blood pressure was 126/84. I knew I could lower my norvase a tad bit and I usually only need about 10mg of inderal to get through the day. If caffiene use goes up and smoking, and I've been stressed out from environmental shit for the last week then I may up my inderal on stressful days to 80mg. You can do that with betablockers but with calcium channel blockers they are better to have a low dose in your blood everyday. Then you can very carefully raise or lower them in tiny fractions depending on time of the year, stress, and all the stuff.

I was on so many different meds at one point for my panic disorder and STILL having panic attacks everyday. Was on paxil, klonopin, seroquel and xanax as needed. Never realized why they weren't working for me. I still had high blood pressure, and was prehypertensive at that point. Over the years leaving my panic disorder uncontrolled my blood pressure slowly got higher and higher. Then one day I popped an inderal, was still mentally nervous as fuck that day, got up in front of a room to give a speech expecting disaster... and what do you know not a single limb was shaking. I could breath and function perfectly. No sweat, no twitching in my face, no cracking voice.... I discovered how wonderful inderal worked not by what I was feeling, but what I wasn't feeling. And I wasn't feeling ANY of that nervous body shit. Instantly my mind calmed down and I almost began to cry thats how liberated I felt that day. Then I told myself "ok enough of these addictive useless 'anxiety meds' and for now on I'm focusing on nothing but adrenaline/blood pressure". I haven't had a panic attack since 2006. I cant explain what type of boost that gives both your mood and self esteem. Like "wow, I actually don't have to worry about shaking like a little bitch in public anymore and can be totally calm?" It was unreal the feeling.

I continue to always keep both these meds in my possession. I WILL have them in my bathroom for the rest of my life. I have tried killing myself more than once due to nothing other than my panic disorder. I KNOW how bad it can get and how crummy the feeling is. It really imprisons you and makes you feel broken and I wouldn't wish it on my worstest enemy. I can't do anything other than wish you the best and hope you are able to pull through this like I was. I do believe you can fix your panic disorder you just need to shift your focus onto what I feel is more relevant in causing panic attacks. Keep us posted and don't be afraid to pm me with any questions.

-Bo

 

[theseeker]

Well not everyone realizes this but hypertension and highblood pressure are two very massive culprits when it comes to panic disorder/panic attacks.

This is absolutely true and I wish more people knew about this. A combination of ACE inhibitor, thiazide diuretic and daily rigorous physical exercise have almost wiped out my panic attacks. I know this is not what many people who take benzo's want to hear but daily physical exercise can help so much that benzo's cannot even approach it's effectiveness. It takes a few weeks to really get the benefits of exercise and blood pressure medicine but once they start working, there is no better treatment IMO. Too many of us want quick fixes and don't want to change our lifestyles and benzo's just facilitate that attitude in so many cases.

 

[Ixchellian]

I apologize for the sidebar......

I was given atarax by a USAF pediatrician/allergist from about 8 thru 10yrs of age, for skin-test "allergies" to tons of shit that never bothered me in the first place.

That particular anti-allergy med seriously made me a sickly child.... and iirc its was pulled from the market in America around the time I refused to take it anymore. It was like a quieter version of accutane. All I know is that when I started taking that shit, and even after quitting it....... my guts havent worked right.

 

[suessmayr]

theseeker - I know what you mean with the benzos. I started exercising daily about 6 weeks ago. Today was the first day I haven't exercised as I have the flu and can barely breathe. But, to be honest, the exercise has had a very limited effect on my anxiety. In fact, it is comparable to benzos, in that it has done virtually nothing to help the anxiety, but will make it many times worse if I fail to exercise.

Bojangles69 - Thanks for the wicked post. The symptom which is undoubtedly most prominent in my case in sweat - but only on my face, literally nowhere else, except maybe for clamminess in my hands. The next most severe are pounding heart, nausea, racing thoughts and a general and pervasive feeling of doom/fear, like something drastic is about to happen. I also inevitably dissociate - my vision changes (becomes either very clear, or seems shadowed by something, or goes to tunnel vision) and my depth-perception goes fucked, so that I feel and probably look drunk. I'm beginning to think, given that all these symptoms seem pretty obviously linked to adrenalin, that a beta-blocker would be the way to go. From what I've read people seem to prefer Inderal (propranol) - is this accurate? I really hope my shrink is cool with this.

Does anyone know if I can take Inderal if I'm already on Avanza and Lexapro?

 

[Bojangles69]

/\ Yes absolutely and look shrinks love inderal just as much as panicky people do lol. Inderal has been on the market a veryyyy long time although only recently did they begin using it for things like PTSD and panic disorder. But it has a very safe track record, I rarely get any side effects from it other than cold limbs but it seems after the first year or 2 I don't get any negative effects at all now. Not even the cold limbs feeling and all you really need to do is rub your hands or feet together anyway.
I also believed it would slow my metabolism but a lot of panicky people don't realize that what is causing their panic/anxiety is also the same thing that causes a souped up metabolism. So these people tend to naturally be skinny from what I've seen. Panic in paradise is a great example of this. You see this in certain breeds of hyper/nervous dogs too like minpins they are always lean because they're always nervous/anxious about things. Its requires lots of energy just to be nervous.

Your shrink should be more than willing to prescribe it just tell him you made a thread online, that you're aware of the dangers of taking medical advice from strangers, but that you were impressed with what they were all saying about inderal and would be curious to try it on an as needed basis. Basically the same thing I told my dr years back and he did not even argue for a minute and agreed it was a smart idea. Its not physically addictive nor is there any rebound I've been able to feel but I'm definitely dependend on it psychologically. But its more like a shield for me then something thats going to ruin my life. Its too safe and simple of a drug really. Just like I said realize that it slows down breathing so if you start drinking and popping benzos you will have a compounded depressive effect on the heart. It also shouldn't be mixed with clonidine which is often prescribed for opiate wd. I've done it before and was taking like 1 breath every 10 minutes lol. Calm as fuck, couldn't get nervous if a train was coming my way but it was really dumb cause I knew I shouldn't have mixed them.

Inderal is usually strong at 60-80mg for a newbie and intense panic which includes sweating, shaking, palpitations, twitching, racing heart etc

At 20-60mg for a more moderate panic attack ideally before it comes on, although it lasts for about 6 hours so once its in your blood you'll be good for a large portion of the day.

But what I do now honestly is take just a bite of my 20mg pills, likely 5-10mg the second I wake up on days I have things to do like work/social events/etc. Its not a strong dose but I've become so conditioned and secure just by HAVING the inderal in my pocket and KNOWING how reliably it works that almost just smelling the pills makes me feel like I can go on with my days w/out panic. It also helps a lot with panic attacks caused by opiate wds although in that case I generally have to combine it with clonidine as opiate wds for a panic prone person usually pushed their adrenaline through the cieling. So it takes that combination of clonidine/inderal for me when the panic is wd related. Still if I don't have clonidine the inderal alone is very strong. And if I'm not in wds I NEVER mix it like I said with clonidine as its just a dangerous practice. I really think that just from what you have described you meet all the criteria of a overactive adrenal system so inderal would likely be one of the most useful meds (if not thee most useful med) that you can take.

g/luck and keep us updated!


ps people with overactive adrenal systems tend to also suffer from overactive digestive systems.
And you can tell by eating a large meal and laying down. If your heart begins to beat extremely fast and hard thats even more evidence imo that you are suffering from sensitized adrenal glands. Doesn't happen with everyone but does with me.