Coping with Depression in WD

[Beachcat]

What about cymbalta? I just switched to this when I was going through withdrawal and now I am just on the cusp of feeling normal again, just a thought. It has a pain relief element, too. If your current anti-ds aren't working, it might be worth it to give it a shot. I know I am feeling like I am crawling slowly up from the depths of hell, and am almost at the top....

Sending good thoughts your way....no one should have to feel this feeling...

 

[msFancyPants]

Hell, i could barely function w doing basics like brushing my teeth, showering, washing a dish, cooking food, or focus on tv; i was so miserably unmotivated, if I stayed in bed and didnt kill myself i considered it a good day.

[/QUOTE]

This is EXACTLY what I deal with during both acute w/d and PAWS when coming off of opiates, and this crippling condition seems to linger for months on end. This is also the reason I (sadly) seem to not be able to stay away from opiates for any amount of time. In fact, I had terrible issues with depression/ anxiety BEFORE doing opiates regularly that were completely resistant to most meds that were prescribed.

When I finally had the taste of opiates (hydros to percs, percs to oxy's, oxy's to H, H to fentanyl, fentanyl to REHAB and subs, back to H, then to m'done...) all of these symptoms went away, but of course caused many issues in my life otherwise, so have been forced to stop using them, which results in debilitating depression, worse than what I originally was experiencing.

I was recently forced to come off 100mg/ day of methadone cold turkey after being d/c'd from my clinic for missing multiple days and am about 12 days in and have for the first time found some non-opiate measures to not STOP the depression but minimize it by about 70% with this regime:

1) 1/2 cup valerian root in 3 cups of very hot (but not boiling) h20, steep for 10 min.. I usually put ginger, a drop of lemon juice, and honey in to mask the foul taste of valerian. I drink slowly over an hour or two until achieving mild sedating effects. (GOOD FOR ANXIETY/ INSOMNIA.)

2) 5-HTP is a NATURAL supplement that works on the serotonin receptors. This has worked better for me than prescribed anti-depressants. (GOOD FOR OVERALL DEPRESSION.)

3) Kratom. The leaf is fine, but only in small doses as a tea or ground and put in capsules. THIS CAN BE ADDICTING as it does work on the opioid receptors, so use with caution and moderation. Do not use longer than acute symptoms last... this is the main thing to use to minimize or (in some cases) completely mask most physical and mental symptoms of opiate withdrawal syndrome.

4) TRY TO MOVE AROUND AND DO DAY_TO_DAY STUFF DESPITE FEELING LIKE COMPLETE HELL. When we experience acute depression, we tend to want to retreat to the bed and lie in it and not move around, but the fact of the matter is: this is a MENTAL condition, and our bodies ARE capable of activity, and though it may feel like hell beginning to move around, doing so WILL make you feel better once you just get the fuck up and do it! Whenever I have the urge to just lie around, I tell myself "JUST DO IT."

 

[msFancyPants]

Most people going through opiate w/d experience some level of depression that usually lasts during the acute phase of w/d, and sometimes lingers into PAWS for weeks, months, or longer and then finally tapers off with more and more time away from your stop-date. (What I've experienced as a former substance abuse counselor and being an opiate addict myself.)

However, for some this depression may be exacerbated by things like a previous history of depression (which it seems you already had this diagnosis) and can become a serious ordeal if not treated, so do perhaps take measures through prescribed and/ or OTC or herbal remedies to treat your symptoms: opiate withdrawal is fucking terrible as it is, and top-notch anxiety and depression is something that, in my opinion, no one needs to go through. Some believe this is therapeutic to go through that so you won't go back to opiates, but in my opinion, the "headfucked" part of w/d is worse than physical symptoms, and something we need not suffer from.

OP, Check out my previous post about how I've managed to alleviate these symptoms from a high dose of methadone (with no taper )w/d.

 

[suessmayr]

Thanks so much for all the marvellous posts.

I'm at day 31 now. I feel like I deserve a fucking medal. This is EASILY the hardest thing I have ever done in my life.

For the benefit of other people - I was on bupe for 3 years and stopped at 2mg. I had a solid 2 weeks of physical WD's and the mental didn't even START to improve until the end of the 3rd week. The only physical symptoms I still have are liquid shit, attacks of nausea, constant cold and general restlessness and inability to focus.

Mentally I'm still badly fucked. My shrink increased my Avanza dose, and although this seems to have helped in a very limited way with anxiety, it also seems to have increased my lethargy and heaviness and perhaps increased my disinterestedness and depression. It has also made exercise harder.

It is - as someone else said - all very complicated in my case, not only because I had pre-existing depression/anxiety issues, but also because, during the time that I was on opiates, I totally withdrew from normal life, went out of touch with everyone I knew and completely kept to myself. So now that I'm clean, it's like trying to piece together the threads of an old life, and I can't just slip back into a routine.

I go back to uni tomorrow and am really fucking nervous. Last semester I could only manage one subject and now I'm enrolled in three (which is necessary for administrative reasons). I'm still exercising daily - FUCK IT'S HARD - and trying to be positive, but I still can't seem to do anything I used to enjoy (reading, music, writing etc.). I bought a Wii last week and that is literally the one thing I can do without hating myself and wanting to die.

How depraved and meaningless this all is! What is the fucking point! In the words of Dylan Moran, I feel like I'm "trudging in a fucking void, like a ghost, alone."

 

[Legerity]

Glad you're sticking with it. I know that feeling of "what's the point". I'm not prone to depression but often things just don't seem to have any purpose. And I do feel that is a pretty accurate assessment of life in general rather than an overly pessimistic view. There's some sort of cultural hype about having some mystical purpose or destiny that we must achieve. I don't think there is any ultimate purpose for anything that we do, it is just is the way it is. Certain actions may bring more peace, while others create more pain. We choose what we choose. So I try to move along and make peace with that however I can. There can be comfort in meaninglessness. That's the way I feel anyways. Good luck man.

 

[suessmayr]

I don't know what my view is ultimately. I'm trying to avoid 'hammer' philosophy and scepticism generally as I feel it destroyed my life at least as much as drugs did. But then I wonder whether I am trying to cultivate a sort of selective blindess, and whether, if I were, this would be justifiable.

I had to get clean to remember how fucking terrible and bleak life really is. There is no inclination in my case - I never feel like doing anything. When I gather the courage and energy to finally and weakly act in some pathetic way, it is because I think that this act must be a 'normal' thing to do. I'm constantly doing what I suppose people ought to do, rather than what I actually feel like doing. Eat something, go to the toilet, exercise - there is no pleasure and no sense of compulsion, it's like playing a game whose rules I don't understand.

 

[Legerity]

I've found it to be very draining to act out only of obligation. I try to let go of as many obligations as possible Has there ever been anything that you wanted to do just for experience in itself?

 

[suessmayr]

Yeah, of course. I used to study classical music, and I loved reading the classics and philosophy. Now even thinking of doing any of these things fills me with a sort of repugnance. It feels like it would require a level of effort I just don't have.

Probably when I got into opiates all my various passions were just replaced with one blanket passion. Now that that's finished it's like having no real identity.

 

[msFancyPants]

OP, I wish you the best of luck in your return to academia and other life things-- the anxiety accompanying some of these things alone and WITHOUT PAWS is bad enough... just PLEASE do not overwhelm yourself, you know? Do what you can, even if it is a challenge, but if you TRULY feel incapable of doing certain things without becoming completely washed out, it may be time to reconsider. Just my opinion. Ask yourself:

A) Am I doing these things because I want to, because I can, because I need to, or because I need to prove something to myself (despite wanting to die every other second...)?



B) Are these things that need to be done NOW or can it wait until I am more ready to accomplish said tasks? And AM I truly ready to do this?

C) WHAT can I do to become more prepared to get back to life stuff (if I am NOT ready or capable)?

Also, if you are still having suicidal thoughts, I would SERIOUSLY try an adjunctive therapy to what seems like your "I;m just going to get up and get back to life DESPITE feeling so depressed and done with life every second" themed- treatment.? (Though this "faking it til you make it" mentality can be therapeutic as long as you continue to acknowledge, at least in private, to someone close, or even in these forums, that yes, you do still have issues with depression and anxiety despite your becoming seemingly functional...

ADJUNCTIVE THERAPY: If prescribed stuff isn't working for you I would REALLY recommend kratom, at least for in the short term. Many people don't give this plant the time of day, thinking that because its legal it can't really be potent enough to work.. but I tell you from experience that it DOES work-- it works as well and in the same way as bupes, meth, and other opiates, but is MUCH easier to come off (if you DO catch a habit from, it, but if you do a taper most likely you won't.)

Here's my trip report on my recent w/d experience with methadone and kratom: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...pped-Away-Methadone-W-D?p=9825959#post9825959

It most likely won't give you a buzz in moderate amounts since you have an opiate tolerance already, but I would almost guarantee it will help with motivation, anxiety, depression, overall mood should be elevated... and its legal (at the moment in the states, though it is starting to get bad media attention due to idiots on youtube, etc. again like salvia)... and relatively cheap. (I use it in place of methadone maintenance to dodge PAWS and spend <snip> buying from a reputable wholesale vendor. So is much cheaper that dope!

Just my suggestion, though.

And BTW, you DO deserve a metal! Keep up the good work-- keep being strong.

 

[suessmayr]

Thanks.

Unfortunately, Kratom is illegal here in Australia, like most things. But to be honest, I don't think it would be such a good idea to use it at this stage - I'm 32 days clean, and have no real excuse to use what is essentially an opiate. I have a shitload of suboxone but I don't plan on touching it.

I think those questions you provided are valuable. It's hard for me to really know where I'm at, because I dropped out of life so completely when I got into opiates, that I'm essentially doing this now on my own. Everything is considered and reconsidered and it's easy to lose perspective.

Since my shrink increased my avanza I feel less anxious but more depressed. It's like I just can't win. And I thought, given that I go back to uni tomorrow, that playing around with new meds at this stage may not be a good idea. Even though the avanza and lexapro that I take are FUCKEN useless.

 

[Legerity]

ADJUNCTIVE THERAPY: If prescribed stuff isn't working for you I would REALLY recommend kratom, at least for in the short term. Many people don't give this plant the time of day, thinking that because its legal it can't really be potent enough to work.. but I tell you from experience that it DOES work-- it works as well and in the same way as bupes, meth, and other opiates, but is MUCH easier to come off (if you DO catch a habit from, it, but if you do a taper most likely you won't.)

Not sure that it's necessarily beneficial to start kratom after already having gone through withdrawals. Some people do develop quite a dependency on it.

 

[SawRED]

I don't know what my view is ultimately. I'm trying to avoid 'hammer' philosophy and scepticism generally as I feel it destroyed my life at least as much as drugs did. But then I wonder whether I am trying to cultivate a sort of selective blindess, and whether, if I were, this would be justifiable.

I had to get clean to remember how fucking terrible and bleak life really is. There is no inclination in my case - I never feel like doing anything. When I gather the courage and energy to finally and weakly act in some pathetic way, it is because I think that this act must be a 'normal' thing to do. I'm constantly doing what I suppose people ought to do, rather than what I actually feel like doing. Eat something, go to the toilet, exercise - there is no pleasure and no sense of compulsion, it's like playing a game whose rules I don't understand.

I used to feel the same way but after I lowered a bit of my own ego, I realized being disappointed by this average world that people live in, doing what their supposed to do and all the other bullshit things that people do just like robots is not necessarily the worst thing. Yeah they all may seem stupid, pointless, and insignificant which in the grand scheme of things they are. One dat we are all gonna die and none of this will matter, so why not try to at least be happy while your here? At first eating drinking exercising and all the bs seems terrible, but people are creatures that adapt. You force yourself to do it for a while and although it seems it never will it gets better it honestly will. You will grow to understand that life is not a fairytale of happiness, there are times where its bad, times when its good, and a lot of time in between where its bleak and boring. Find some enjoyable hobbies and appreciate the time doing them, when bad days come just know that however horrific there will be better day letters, and all the boring time in between? Well you can fight it and be miserable forever and guarantee yourself unhappiness or you can learn to just accept it and know there will be some fun days as well. Nobodies life is amazing all the time, even the rockstars and celebrities take 14 hours bus rides around the country touring away from home sitting in close quarters with nothing to do at all. Life is not all glitz and glory. None the less if you truly feel your making life decisions because there "normal" or what your supposed to, absolutely fuck that. Follow your dreams and don't be afraid. I recently did it and it's been amazing for me. All in all good luck.

 

[suessmayr]

Yeah, thanks. The issue is that I don't really have 'dreams' right now, or I do but they are totally cognitive in that they're past projections, and I'm trying to realise things which I remember desiring. But in terms of what I myself desire there is really nothing. I don't think I would even be comfortable just getting wasted anymore, because I've come too far and would just feel like a loser.

I think this is really what all depression boils down to - a loss of impulse and spontaneity. There's no vibrance or attraction and as a result no feeling of peace.

I'd be interested to know how people got through their PAWS.

 

[msFancyPants]

Not sure that it's necessarily beneficial to start kratom after already having gone through withdrawals. Some people do develop quite a dependency on it.

I do agree that it has a lot of potential for addiction, and I meant more or less that the kratom may be a remedy more for the mood-related stuff than physical withdrawal and only if no luck with other prescribed, natural, or OTC remedies work, and then only with care and if there are no real improvements in psychological symptoms (I should have clarified, sorry.) But DEFINITELY if there's been improvement on its own, not a good idea.

I also posted about kratom more because it seems that OP has a SIGNIDIGANT history of depression and anxiety, as both a form of PAWS and also not related to w/d, that it may be a bit worse than that which some others experience, and that its lingering in a way that's debilitating, and isn't treated by other things.

Most definitely folks, use this method only when really needed and when other things fail, or there is no improvement after time as dependency on kratom can form for many!

But OP is in a country where its illegal, anyhow...

 

[msFancyPants]

I'd be interested to know how people got through their PAWS.

I mentioned before some remedies that I personally used (lets take the kratom off that list as we've established its irrelevance ): to include valerian for anxiety and insomnia, 5-HTP for depression, L-tyrosine for amotivational symptoms, Kava Kava for anxiety, and sometimes Benadryl for insomnia (though if you are still experiencing any restless leg still do NOT take benadryl as anti-histamines will make RLS much worse, and some don't even realize it.)

Other than the consumables, I did yoga. Lots of yoga. A couple years ago, actually, when I kicked bupes I went to a Hindu Ashram outside of NYC where I stayed for a month and a half, and did sooo much yoga, meditation, ate veggie food, learned Sanskrit, even-- the whole experience helped my mood IMMENSELY. (As a joke, I call it my trip to the psych ward, just not in a psych ward.) This place was amazing. If you can't afford or don't want to do something thing this extreme, I would at least reccomend reading up on the principles of yogic tradition, and if the Hindi principles don't really itch a scratch, go for yogic stuff more geared towards Buddhism. No matter what your actual faith, most in-depth, intelligent people can relate to most philosophical principles of these religions, if not the religious traditions associated with them. And yoga teaches so many physical and mental ways to deal with hardship, anxiety, depression, and life in an all-natural way. (AND its fun!)

Its also a great way to pick up an exercise regime that both helps with amotivational symptoms AND speeds up the detox process to get this whole ordeal over and done with! Also , there are types of yoga that apply to every physique and level of physical exertion. Someone in a wheelchair can do some level of yoga even in the form of breathing (pranayama) and meditation exercises, and for the very fit, yo could feasibly build the strength to hold you entire body in the air on one finger (with LOTS of practice for that one, of course!)

I hope that you are doing better!

 

[suessmayr]

msFancyPants - It's interesting that you mention the Yoga. My dad, when he was younger, studied and taught yoga/yogic philosophy in India for about 15 years. He has an immense library of Eastern philosophy and I've been dipping into this recently as I am myself a philosophy graduate and have I suppose a Western interest. I've read Patanjali's Sutras, but my dad said that Raja Yoga can be a bit more academic and inaccessible than other forms, like Kriya yoga. Either way I've found that it's only occasionally helpful and that I'm usually too depressed and disinterested to be able to approach it seriously. But much of my family lives in India and I may look for an ashram when I visit at the end of the year, if I'm not looking for opium instead, which I probably will be.

I can't touch 5-htp as I'm on 2 anti-depressants, but I may try to get some of the other things. And I have been taking valerian at night for sleep. What's it like if taken during the day for anxiety? I would imagine it would just make you feel very seedy and tired?