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Consciousness

Personally, I'm not convinced that the panpsychist theory of consciousness is too unbelievable
i don't have the time to read the thread right now, and haven't read the other one

but i just wanted to point out that also we certainly don't have a good argumentation to justify it, many of the people who believe in "universal consciousness" believe in it because they have experienced it

and when i say "experienced it", i mean it for real
it was not some hazy feeling, but the clearest and more realistic certainty possible
we felt it as surely as i'm sure that i am writing these words right now

i know that to someone who hasn't experienced it, it sounds like "i've seen a ghost and although i can't prove it, you have to believe me"
but i don't believe in ghosts... and yet i would bet my life and yours on universal consciousness :)

hope to have more time to read the thread later
 
redeemer said:
Thinking about it, I'm not sure I can discern between an animal acting "automatically" and an animal acting consciously. An animal has the sense of sight, what is the difference between it seeing unconsciously, and acting "automatically" on the basis of this, and it seeing consciously and acting consciously on the basis of it?

It seems likely that there is something it is like to be a mouse, some associated experience, but there is no way to know. But there doesn’t seem to be any reason why they wouldn’t have an associated experience either. There would have to be a radical discontinuity from complex experiences to none at all.

redeemer said:
I've often pondered what exactly it means to be self-aware. I don't think I got further than thinking that self-awareness is just an extension of our ability to communicate, ie. we have it because we can say that we have it. What do you think of this?

I agree. The capacity to see others as individuals with their own private thoughts seems necessary for advanced systems of communication. It’d be necessary for accountability, empathy, etc.

F&B said:
Well selective brain damage (strokes etc) can cause radical alterations in conciousness/self awareness, even to the point of abolishing it, but leaving the body's autonomic functions operating as normal (persistant vegitative state). I'd say that points to conciousness being intimately linked to the brain and ruling out the possibility of conciousness existing without having the correct, functioning hardware to run it on

You're still thinking of our uniquely human brand of consciousness. Isn’t it possible that the human brain is just an extremely complex arrangement that allows for a continuity of consciousness? Must consciousness/experience entail continuity?

Instinct and the memory are products of evolution. If consciousness/experience were to occur apart from any complex sensory manifold with memory, instincts, etc, it would just be a flash of experience. This is difficult to grasp because of our preconceptions of what consciousness entails, but what if the most simplistic of systems (e.g. Chalmer’s thermostat) gave rise to a flash of experience.

Think about the possibility that consciousness ranges from our enormously rich perceptual manifold to more and more simplistic experiences as you move down to the level of a mouse, a lizard, a slug, a single neuron, a single cell, and right on down to elementary particles.

Re-read the quotation from psoodonym in my first post.

time traveler said:
I have read this thread over and over and im still trying to see what you are getting at with this awareness thing. Awareness evolved a long time ago. The reason it is evolved is to add randomness and choice into nature. Animals cant be autonomous robots reacting purely to stimuli. They wouldn't get far.

You’re missing the distinction I made at the beginning of the thread between the psychological mind and the phenomenal mind. Think of the zombie argument. Is it not logically conceivable that there could exist a human that acted the same as every other human, but lack any inner life? All you can tell about another person is deduced from behavior … that includes language, etc. This “zombie” could even report how he was feeling, what he was thinking; he could say he was in love … but he would have no experience whatsoever. It would just be the working of the psychological mind, because as we have established, the phenomenal mind performs no function. It just is.

time traveler said:
Lastly Dondante do you think trees are aware ?

Trees don’t have any nervous system to be aware in the animal sense; obviously they don’t think or have memories, but I don’t think it’s inconceivable that there might be some flash of experience associated information processing systems within the tree. However, the tree as a whole would lack a single unified experience.

vegan said:
but i just wanted to point out that also we certainly don't have a good argumentation to justify it, many of the people who believe in "universal consciousness" believe in it because they have experienced it
and when i say "experienced it", i mean it for real
it was not some hazy feeling, but the clearest and more realistic certainty possible
we felt it as surely as i'm sure that i am writing these words right now

How could you experience it? A person is confined to his/her own experience. Panpsychism is not about paranormal projection of your human consciousness, telepathy, or anything like it. There's absolutely nothing magical about it; there is no conflict with science.

The problem is that we don’t have good evidence to justify consciousness as an emergent property, an epiphenomenon.
 
Thanks for posting this Dondante! I just saw this thread - I've been out camping with my brother for the last couple days.

I think I see a slight confusion in the interpretation of my idea (which was probably my fault). I'll try to lay down a more clear train of thought for the consciousness from evolution argument (which is really not mine! see Pinker, Damasio, and Searle for the original takes).

*** edit - oh man! I just read through the rest of your posts! This thread is going to be so much fun! We have so much to talk about here!
 
As regards the nature of phenomenal experience in and of itself, panexperientialism is the most elucidating perspective I’ve run across (actually I thought of it “independently” and had my hopes of having thought an original thought dashed across mostly 20th century philosophy). It answers the mind/body problem (in epiphenomenalism getting something from nothing) by asserting that phenomenal experience is a property of matter. It’s a young philosophy that’s made some strange turns and run into dead ends in the past (thermostats have experience? I think Chalmers has changed his mind on that), but I’ve read formulations of it that seem to give it at least an initial handhold in cogent explanation. In this formulation, experience is said to be a property of even the most fundamental constituents of physical reality--at the moment quarks and leptons. When I talk of the “experience” of a particle I don’t mean emotion or even mere sensory experience, but rather a quality of experience so basic as to be absolutely inconceivable by we, the most complex physical systems in the known universe. From the level of fundamental particles experience is expressed up on through the “natural kinds”, in different ways, at the atomic, molecular, and cellular levels, and eventually at the level of the organism.

Within each level the relationships of constituent parts to one another affect the nature of the unified experience possessed at that level, and the results are not reducible to a phenomenal addition of the constituents. For example, though each is comprised of carbon atoms, molecules of graphite and diamond would each possess a different basic phenomenal experience because the arrangement of carbon atoms is different in each substance. If an arrangement of constituent parts is sufficient to express a unique physical or chemical property, we might imagine it sufficient to express a unique phenomenal quality. By compounding these “physio-phenomenal” constituents--quarks in protons and neutrons, atoms in molecules etc.--new and unique qualities of phenomenal experience are produced.

This is NOT to say chairs, rocks, or even computers possess experience as individual items. These are aggregate entities, not natural kinds. The silicon atoms in a computer chip possess experience, as do the iron oxide molecules in the rusty nails that hold the chair together, but the incidental constructions the atoms and molecules inhabit do not because such things are merely aggregates. Though aggregate entities are composed of compound or fundemental physio-phenomenal entities, they themselves do not possess a unified experience as aggregates. Brains, or the various, intimately connected, modules therein, are thought to possess experience as compound entities of specifically arranged neural cells.

Up to and through the level of molecules, panexperientialism is pretty clean. When we make the jump to the cellular level things start to get muddy, and when we make the leap to the level of the organism it’s a damn swamp. What are the rules for deciding what constitutes an experiential property of a cell and what doesn’t (the removal of one ion channel or a lipid from the cell’s wall might change it’s properties subtly but not in a deeply functional way; does it change its experience)? What about the profoundly more complex level of the organism?!

However, this is not a problem unique to panexperientialism. The concepts of “natural kinds” and “properties” make trouble at the level of explanation itself in the philosophy of anything. Even in particle physics, that sacred goat, the fundamental particles have properties like spin, color, and flavor despite being thought of and treated within that discipline as fundamental particles, not composites. (Our best attempt to make further reductions, string theory, is seeing a steady exodus of its formally faithful due to its non-falsifiablity and seeming application to anything, not just our universe (see Columbia U’s Peter Woit in “Not Even Wrong”)). These properties are not like physical heat, which can be described fully in terms of the motion of molecules/atoms. These properties are not explained by appeal to anything, empirically speaking, more elemental. If fundamental particles can possess multiple real and distinct properties then what the hell is a property other than a ghostly, irreducible, and unavoidable metaphysical posit? What, if anything, constrains the limits and natures of what “properties” can be, especially if they can have no physical function (as looks to be the case in mere phenomenal experience)? So for now at least, other than our waning, and not rigidly constraining, aspirations for parsimony, why shouldn’t properties express themselves in other areas, such as in phenomenal being? Adding one more real property to the physical world to explain the directly experienced empirical fact of experience qua experience seems a lot less complex than getting something from nothing.
Dondante said:
I agree. The capacity to see others as individuals with their own private thoughts seems necessary for advanced systems of communication. It’d be necessary for accountability, empathy, etc.
Interesting side note: rats seem to experience empathy. When pressing a bar to receive food coincides with the shocking of a cage mate, a rat will forego the treats to spare the cage-mate pain. Also, when their stomachs are injected with acid (yeah I know), a rat will writhe around in pain longer when it's in the company of an injected cage-mate than it will alone or with a non-cage-mate rat. Empathy seems to have it's essential neural representation in "mirror neurons" (which autistics, not surprisingly, lack to a great degree).
 
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I haven't touched any drugs for weeks now and consider my brain at its peak of crystalline comprehension. But i still cant understand exactly what you guys are on about, maybe thats the problem :)

it seems some of you are maybe tuned in and turned on to something that im not

dondante have you got any links to explain the phenomenal mind and the philosophy better?

dondante said:
Think of the zombie argument. Is it not logically conceivable that there could exist a human that acted the same as every other human, but lack any inner life? All you can tell about another person is deduced from behavior … that includes language, etc. This “zombie” could even report how he was feeling, what he was thinking; he could say he was in love … but he would have no experience whatsoever. It would just be the working of the psychological mind, because as we have established, the phenomenal mind performs no function. It just is.

I dont believe that for a second. Sure a zombie like that could exist but there is no way it would fool a human. It would act like a zombie, it would just give itself away sooner or later. Without any experience its memory would be severely compromised

Is it possible your definitions of experience and awareness are etheral; in the same ball park as spirituality or a higher conciousness,

Theres definitely some provoking thought going on in this thread, and the zombies you mentioned i think could be paralleled to a lot of people i know who work, do what they are told, go home and watch tv everyday and then repeat. It seems their experience would be considerably less than those who occasionally delve into psychedelics and ponder what it is exactly to be.
 
I promise this isn't above your head. You just need to familiarize yourself with the arguements.

http://www.imprint.co.uk/chalmers.html (explanation of the hard problem of philosophy of mind)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia (good link with many examples supporting and refuting physicalism)

The zombie thought experiment is famous for demonstrating the hard problem of consciousness. You wouldn't be able to tell a difference ... because there would be absolutely no external difference. Everything would be the same except the philosophical zombie would have no inner life, no actual experience (although it would report otherwise). It would have all the functional aspects of the human brain ... memory, reportability, control of behavior, etc., but without the associated subjective experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie (good explanation)

... the zombie argument against physicalism in general was most famously developed in detail by David Chalmers in The Conscious Mind (1996). According to Chalmers, one can coherently conceive of an entire zombie world: a world physically indiscernible from our world, but entirely lacking conscious experience. In such a world, the counterpart of every being that is conscious in our world would be a p-zombie. The structure of Chalmers' version of the zombie argument can be outlined as follows:

1. If physicalism is true, then it is not possible for there to be a world in which all the physical facts are the same as those of the actual world but in which there are additional facts. (This is because, according to physicalism, all the facts are fully determined by the physical facts; so any world that is physically indistinguishable from our world is entirely indistinguishable from our world.)

2. But there is a possible world in which all the physical facts are the same as those of our world but in which there are additional facts. (For example, it is possible that there is a world exactly like ours in every physical respect, but in it everyone lacks certain mental states, namely any phenomenal experiences or qualia. The people there look and act just like people in the actual world, but they don't feel anything; when one gets shot, for example, he yells out as if he is in pain, but he doesn't feel any pain.)

3. Therefore, physicalism is false. (The conclusion follows by modus tollens.)
 
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How could you experience it? A person is confined to his/her own experience.
I and others could experience it because, just as you, our "personal experience" is not limited to that of the molecules that make up our bodies

we're precisely saying that our consciousness isn't limited to the consciousness attached to this very body
but that this "individual consciousness", far from being whole and limited, is only a local pick of consciousness of a universal consciousness which is emerging through our subjective experiences

on a tree, every leaf has a life independent from the other leaves, yet, it is part of the same whole, the tree

we are not aware of the whole just because we're still at the beginning of our evolution

when the first bacteria appeared in the ocean, they were certainly not self-conscious
the fish and then other animals did slightly better, but it's in humans that consciousness has started to awaken exponentionally
yet, there's no reason to think that we're reached the end of our awakening

and i'm convinced that the next important step in our evolution will be to realize that we don't have independent consciousnesses, but "one universal consciousness experiencing itself subjectively"
Panpsychism is not about paranormal projection of your human consciousness, telepathy, or anything like it. There's absolutely nothing magical about it; there is no conflict with science
i don't see, and haven't mentionned any conflict or magic either

i'm not proposing any paranormal theory
i'm proposing that the 'normal' may encompass more than we believe today

as a parallel : everybody calls non-locality science and not magic

yet, you can hardly find anything more "magic", while absolutely not explained by science, than non-locality

and non-locality, which has been experimentaly proved, but not explained, was certainly not part of the "normal" just one century ago

was it then part of the paranormal, or just not yet accepted as a part of the normal by science?
 
time traveler said:
My dog and i are both by your definition conscious. We are walking along a new path and both feeling very thirsty. We both consciously see a new tap, but only i have the cognitive ability to know if i turn the handle, water will flow out. Walk down the path a few more times and the dog might habitually associate the tap with water, but nothing more
What if you'd never been shown that a tap releases water? Why would you then think it was anything but an ornament?

On the flipside, dogs are most certainly capable of associating actions to their desires (which ultimately sums up the model of turning a tap on to get a drink). My dog learned for herself that giving a single bark would result in being let out into the yard. We didn't train her to do that, or expect it of her, she just figured it out on her own.
 
Dondante said:
Is it possible your definitions of experience and awareness are etheral; in the same ball park as spirituality or a higher conciousness,

Theres definitely some provoking thought going on in this thread, and the zombies you mentioned i think could be paralleled to a lot of people i know who work, do what they are told, go home and watch tv everyday and then repeat. It seems their experience would be considerably less than those who occasionally delve into psychedelics and ponder what it is exactly to be.
Surely it is logically possible. But, if all we are talking about is conceptual possibility, I don't feel like we've made very many inroads to the nature of the phenomenal mind in this actual world.

What the zombie thought experiments really establishes is the distinctness of consciousness from physical matter. There is no conceptual law about physical systems that holds that consciousness must emerge from certain physical systems, across all possible worlds. Thats fine. Here are some minor points that may help clear up confusion why we are talking about zombies in a consciousness thread.

Since consciousness is a biological process (ie part of this physical world), there are natural laws linking consciousness and physical matter.

Two physical systems that are physically isomorphic are necessarily functionally isomorphic.

Notice it does not work the other way around: Two systems that are functionally isomorphic are not necessarily physically isomorphic. Just look at studies on the difference between compound and single aperture eyes to understand functional identity with physical a-isomorphism.

Similarly, two systems that are physically isomorphic (in the same world) are necessarily phenomenally identical.

However, two systems that are phenomenally isomorphic are not necessarily physically isomorphic. For example, we can both be in pain (a phenomenal state), but have two very different neurophysiological states underpinning this (your C-fibers may have a radically different arrangement compared to mine).
 
Dondante mentioned the so called 'hard problem' of consciousness as the heart of the problem we are discussing. It is so called 'hard' because the nature of phenomenal (the 'what it is like' aspect of) consciousness does not submit to a functional explanation. Before anybody jumps the gun, this does not necessitate that phenomenal consciousness does not serve a function for our organism. It only means phen. consciousness is not explained entirely by its function (ie there is something else, some ineffable intangible quality to it that escapes functional explanation).

Recall in my post above that phenomenal consciousness does not necessitate physical isomorphism. This is another way to say that phenomenal consciousness is not exhausted by third-person, objective data points.

Neuroscience does so well at explaining phenomena such as awareness, visual representation, motor control and the rest because these types of phenomena submit to a functional explanation. All we need to explain them is to identify their neural correlates and give reasons how they produce the phenomena they do. If you want a great example of this, study neuronal synchronization as a theory that answers the 'binding problem' (how individual features are 'binded' together and represented as coming from a single entity in 'external reality'). Krich and Coch, two vision neuroscientists, write a great summary of this theory.

So much for the 'hard problem.' Before I go on and on, I think I will write a bit about why I think phenomenal consciousness was selected for, in humans, through evolution. Next post!
 
Before I go forward, I think its instructive to reflect on the nature of our conscious 'life' we experience at every waking moment. There is some special quality to it. Whether there is pain present, euphoria, sadness, certain colors in our visual field, etc. Why is it that we experience these qualities in our consciousness? Do they truly serve no purpose as philosophers in the past have stated (and some people in this thread)? Are they truly epiphenomena (causally irrelevant to cognition, body states, etc)?

I think not. Further, I think it is the intuitive stance to claim that these qualities of consciousness are important in what we do, how we think, etc. But, let's not rest on intuitions!

What purpose could phenomenal consciousness serve? I suggest (not very originally I might add!) it serves a monitoring purpose on the organism's neurophysiological states. These neurophysiological states are as a result from certain physiological body states and the environment the organism is situated in. Its not really important to go into that. Suffice to say, I do not hold a theory of naive realism (see Searle, Intentionality for an excellent presentation of Naive Realism).

Humans are very complex biological entities. The brain is at the nexus of this complexity. It not only receives inputs (sensory or otherwise), but it also sends out a massive amount of outputs (changing bodily states, consciously and unconsciously).

We are not the stimulus and response machines that Behavioralism would have wanted us to think we are. We can judge certain decisions, plan, and tweak both our internal body states as well as the 'external' reality precisely because we can reflect on certain qualities in our consciousness. It is the fact that we can experience certain bodily states as pleasurable or not pleasurable that fuels our rational processes; decision making, planning, etc (see Damasio's discussion of 'somatic markers').

So, phenomenal consciousness serves the purpose of allowing our organism to feel its own body states and gives depth to the representations of the environment. It speeds up the process of representation.

P-Consciousness was selected for precisely because it does so good a job at aiding in cognition. Evolutionary processes are not teleological in nature (they are 'blind' in the sense that there is no end-state they are driving toward).

P-consciousness has at its base both simple and complex forms of pattern recognition. I don't want to go into depth here, but for a great discussion of this read Andy Clark (Being There). It is instructive to reflect on how p-consciousness could emerge from the building complexity of pattern recognitional processes in our brain. I think it can, and if it can, I think it would precisely because it would be the route toward the most resourceful form of intelligence this world has ever seen.

The God discussion was simply a metaphor for the amazing power p-consciousness stands as (sorry, I mix my metaphors in here since they are fun to use and I don't get to use them when writing essays).
 
Dondante said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie (good explanation)
... the zombie argument against physicalism in general was most famously developed in detail by David Chalmers in The Conscious Mind (1996). According to Chalmers, one can coherently conceive of an entire zombie world: a world physically indiscernible from our world, but entirely lacking conscious experience. In such a world, the counterpart of every being that is conscious in our world would be a p-zombie. The structure of Chalmers' version of the zombie argument can be outlined as follows:

1. If physicalism is true, then it is not possible for there to be a world in which all the physical facts are the same as those of the actual world but in which there are additional facts. (This is because, according to physicalism, all the facts are fully determined by the physical facts; so any world that is physically indistinguishable from our world is entirely indistinguishable from our world.)

2. But there is a possible world in which all the physical facts are the same as those of our world but in which there are additional facts. (For example, it is possible that there is a world exactly like ours in every physical respect, but in it everyone lacks certain mental states, namely any phenomenal experiences or qualia. The people there look and act just like people in the actual world, but they don't feel anything; when one gets shot, for example, he yells out as if he is in pain, but he doesn't feel any pain.)

3. Therefore, physicalism is false. (The conclusion follows by modus tollens.)
Hey dondante, this is a pretty horrible explanation of the zombie argument, just to let you know. There is a category error contained within the argument (the argument presupposes that identical physical worlds necessarily have identical physical laws).

Its possible that there are worlds with identical natural laws to ours. If there is another world in which the natural laws are identical to our own (and consciousness obeys natural laws like any biological process does), then its not possible to imagine that world with physical isomorphic entities to humans that are not conscious (if humans are indeed conscious, which we are).

It is possible to conceptualize a possible world with entities that are physically isomorphic to humans that are not conscious, so long as that possible world has a (slightly) different set of natural laws than ours.

The zombie argument gets at the distinctness of consciousness from the physical system that realizes it. Consciousness emerges from physical matter, but not necessarily (only so far as accords with natural laws). Of course there is a possible world in which the same group of neurons does not realize consciousness because of some law governing chemical reactions or a law about electricity for instance.

Does that make sense and do you see the category mistake in the wiki argument?
 
samadhi_smiles said:
Dondante mentioned the so called 'hard problem' of consciousness as the heart of the problem we are discussing. It is so called 'hard' because the nature of phenomenal (the 'what it is like' aspect of) consciousness does not submit to a functional explanation. Before anybody jumps the gun, this does not necessitate that phenomenal consciousness does not serve a function for our organism. It only means phen. consciousness is not explained entirely by its function (ie there is something else, some ineffable intangible quality to it that escapes functional explanation).

Recall in my post above that phenomenal consciousness does not necessitate physical isomorphism. This is another way to say that phenomenal consciousness is not exhausted by third-person, objective data points.

Neuroscience does so well at explaining phenomena such as awareness, visual representation, motor control and the rest because these types of phenomena submit to a functional explanation. Neuroscience does so well at explaining phenomena such as awareness, visual representation, motor control and the rest because these types of phenomena submit to a functional explanation. All we need to explain them is to identify their neural correlates and give reasons how they produce the phenomena they do. If you want a great example of this, study neuronal synchronization as a theory that answers the 'binding problem' (how individual features are 'binded' together and represented as coming from a single entity in 'external reality'). Krich and Coch, two vision neuroscientists, write a great summary of this theory.

So much for the 'hard problem.' Before I go on and on, I think I will write a bit about why I think phenomenal consciousness was selected for, in humans, through evolution. Next post!

It doesn't seem to me like you addressed the 'hard problem' at all.

Explaining psychological phenomena, such as learning, memory, perception, control of action, attention, linguistic behavior, etc. are ALL insufficient to explain consciousness. This is still a lumping together of the psychological and phenomenal aspects of consciousness. For any model derived from cognitive studies, there still remains the question of why the model would be accompanied by experience. I agree that cognitive models can establish very useful correlations with phenomenal states, but that's only half of the issue; there is still no reductive explanation of subjective experience. To me, it seems the hard problem is untouched.

Giving reasons for how neural correlates give rise to experience is the hard problem. You say “all we need to explain …” as if we’ve almost figured it out. But the way I see it, we are still at square one. We have absolutely no idea how subjective experience arises.

Here’s a quotation from a published interview with Koch where he admits the shortcomings of the binding solution:

“Well, let’s first forget about the really difficult aspects, like subjective feelings, for they may not have a scientific solution. The subjective state of play, of pain, of pleasure, of seeing blue, of smelling a rose—there seems to be a huge jump between the materialistic level, of explaining molecules and neurons, and the subjective level.”
 
Dondante said:
It doesn't seem to me like you addressed the 'hard problem' at all.
You're right. The hard problem is (as succintly as possible) finding a place for subjective, phenomenal states of mind in an explanatory theory of consciousness. That place, I answer (unoriginally I may add) is as a monitoring tool on the organism's body state (selected for blindly through evolution).

The hard problem is NOT identifying neural correlates and how they give rise to consciousness. Thats the easy problem (the problem for neuroscientists). The hard problem has very little to do with the actual physical systems that realize our consciousness. We can imagine radically different physical systems that realize consciousness (non-carbon based perhaps), however there would still be the hard problem of WHY the entity is conscious (ie why does pain feel like THIS and not THAT).

Explaining psychological phenomena, such as learning, memory, perception, control of action, attention, linguistic behavior, etc. are ALL insufficient to explain consciousness. This is still a lumping together of the psychological and phenomenal aspects of consciousness. For any model derived from cognitive studies, there still remains the question of why the model would be accompanied by experience. I agree that cognitive models can establish very useful correlations with phenomenal states, but that's only half of the issue; there is still no reductive explanation of subjective experience. To me, it seems the hard problem is untouched.
Just to clear something up, the hard problem is NOT finding a reductive explanation for subjective experience. A reductive explanation based on objective data is not conceptually possible for subjective experience (since there is no mind-brain identity).

The psychological phenomena are explained objectively. A complete science of consciousness must entail subjective explanations. Subjective data points are beginning to be gathered...but a complete subjective scientific explanation is quite a ways away. We can imagine though that this explanation will be fantastically complex and integrate subjective 'phenomenal' states into neurophysiological correlates. But, its not necessary to get too bogged down in the physical systems we happen to have. Its better to look at subjective experience from a wider angle (ie explanatory). I think this is where Coch was going with his comment.

Giving reasons for how neural correlates give rise to experience is the hard problem. You say “all we need to explain …” as if we’ve almost figured it out. But the way I see it, we are still at square one. We have absolutely no idea how subjective experience arises.
I think this is a little harsh. I think we have a pretty darn good idea how it happens. We intuitively understand how certain conscious feelings 'arise' in our minds, for instance we know that we are feeling pain because we just stubbed our toe on the doorstep. We have, of course, varying degrees of scientific explanations, some of us know about central nervous systems, c-fibers, etc, but again this is not really necessary to give an explanatory picture of subjective experience.

Its instructive to focus on feelings. Feelings are the result of having an idea of one's own body state. So, if you stub your toe or grab a hot pot, first there is a signal going up your nerves that evokes pain behavior (removal of hand from pot, flinching of leg muscles from stubbing toe, grimace, etc), THEN there is the FEELING of the pain. The feeling is nothing more than an idea of the body state (some complex interaction of nerves, c-fibers, etc). Our organism has evolved so as (through chemical reactions with neurotransmitters) to assign pleasurable or unpleasurable feelings to these states. Pain is of course an unpleasurable sensation because that is useful for promoting pain avoidance behavior.

Right now we are struggling with integrating objective view of the brain with a subjective view of consciousness simply because it is a radical paradigm shift from the methodologies that have thus far been embraced by science.
 
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samadhi_smiles said:
Hey dondante, this is a pretty horrible explanation of the zombie argument, just to let you know. There is a category error contained within the argument (the argument presupposes that identical physical worlds necessarily have identical physical laws).

Its possible that there are worlds with identical natural laws to ours. If there is another world in which the natural laws are identical to our own (and consciousness obeys natural laws like any biological process does), then its not possible to imagine that world with physical isomorphic entities to humans that are not conscious (if humans are indeed conscious, which we are).

It is possible to conceptualize a possible world with entities that are physically isomorphic to humans that are not conscious, so long as that possible world has a (slightly) different set of natural laws than ours.

Yes, the idea is to imagine a world with that is physically identical to ours with identical physical laws as postulated by a complete understanding of the governing physics. Externally, this world would be exactly the same. But, these physically identical worlds still have a difference … one lacks conscious experience. The point is that physical facts do not justify consciousness; conscious experience is something above and beyond the physical facts.

I noticed that you switched from using the term “physical laws” to “natural laws.” Physical laws do not entail all the phenomenal facts, but perhaps natural laws do. Chalmers argues for a naturalistic dualism where there are basic natural laws, but they include physical laws and phenomenal laws.

samadhi_smiles said:
The zombie argument gets at the distinctness of consciousness from the physical system that realizes it. Consciousness emerges from physical matter, but not necessarily (only so far as accords with natural laws). Of course there is a possible world in which the same group of neurons does not realize consciousness because of some law governing chemical reactions or a law about electricity for instance.

Does that make sense and do you see the category mistake in the wiki argument?

It seems like you admit that consciousness is distinct from the physical system, but then you fall into the trap of thinking that consciousness is conceptually entailed by the physical (reductive functionalism). This is where we differ. I don’t think phenomenal consciousness plays a causal role. In my opinion, you’re conflating the psychological mind with phenomenological.
 
This possible world (in which the world is physically identical to ours with identical physical laws yet lacking conscious experience) is not conceptually possible, if it is not naturally possible in any possible world. Natural impossibility across all possible worlds defines a conceptual possibility not readily apparent in an initial conceptual (macro)analysis. I hope that makes sense to you. It does not entail a reductive explanation of consciousness. Rather, it situates consciousness on the level it belongs; as a biological process, a process which must accord to natural laws (and isomorphic physical systems with identical physical laws necessitates functional isomorphism).

Can you look at that above sort of closely, since it is an argument I created and I am going to use in the future. Please tell me what you think!

Here's something I just thought of, that might blow your mind: there is a possible world in which there are no conscious entities. In this world there is no 'easy problem,' since there are no physical systems in which to 'reverse-engineer,' yet still the hard problem persists, since it is a conceptual problem, not a physical problem.

Whew!
 
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