^^^ Is it? It's true you see something. Could there be an alien spaceship right there projecting down an
image of clouds, in order to cloak itself? Pretty damn unlikely, obviously, but is it 100% impossible?
On the broader point, I don't think many people are against going out and finding things out. But we have a limited amount of time, and if an idea is sufficiently improbable and/or senseless, then it's a good idea not to waste time on it. You're not going to bother investigating or worrying about whether those clouds you saw were really cloaked alien ships, you just assume they really are clouds.
I think the point is there's nothing criminal or wrong about making assumptions like this -- we all do it every day. You and I might differ about
which things are so improbable that we can just dismiss them. But then the solution is for me to try and convince you that the thing is much more likely than you thought. Telling you that it's silly to assume anything would be besides the point. Right?
--zorn
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yougene said:
Yes this shows a causal relationship between the electrode and the neurons. It does nothing to show the relationship between neurons and consciousness. By the same reasoning I can say a meditator changes his brainwaves by meditating, therefore there is a causal relationship between the two. This explanation would be just as lacking.
Hi yougene,
You seem to be missing the point entirely. Of course the electrode works by electrically stimulating the neurons; we knew that already even tho it's not what the example shows. In the experiment, we electrically stimulate the brain, and we find that then people report particular mental sensations. And stimulating different parts of the brain leads to different sensations in a very regular & predictable way. So
stimulation of the brain causes mental states. That's the normal meaning of cause. Isn't that what "X causes Y" means:
if I do X, then Y always happens. Right?
Of course going into a meditative state causes a change in one's brainwaves patterns, too; so does going to sleep. The difference is that when you choose to meditate, there's not only mental activity going on -- there's also physical activity in the brain. The brainwaves could be caused physically by the changes in the brain when you choose to meditate, or by the purely mental event. In the brain stimulation case, none of
your mental events are involved when the doctor activates of the electrode. (Not unless you believe the whole world just exists in your imagination, in which case the doctor's actions are just your mental events too.)
But this is getting a bit afield and obscures the real issue. We know that tinkering with the brain causes mental states, and modifying the brain can drastically alter the way the mind works. We also know how the matter that makes up the brain behaves -- according to laws of physics. (Neurons, as far as anyone has observed, do not show evidence of "external" non-physical things acting on them.) So there's a couple possibilities: 1) the mind is caused by the brain's functioning, which occurs along the normal rules we've all observed. Or, 2) the mind is an independent entity from the brain, which interacts with it but is not caused by it or part of it. The problem with case #2 is that the the changes in the mind caused by messing with the brain are so wide-ranging and detailed.
Did you read
my earlier post, yougene? To take a vehicle analogy again -- if we mess with a car, we can make it hard or impossible for the driver to drive properly. But we won't change the driver, his personality, intentions, temperament, and so on. But it's just a matter of fact that altering the brain can cause vast personality changes, huge emotional changes, deep changes in the nature of our consciousness itself. Damaging the brain can eliminate memories or the ability to form new ones, mess with our thoughts in near-incomprehensible ways. (Some people can
see faces just fine, have a memory that works just fine, but can't
recognize people. Some people have just fine vision, but when asked to draw a room will not draw anything on the left side of the page -- they will still dodge if someone on their left punches at them, but consciously they don't seem able to grasp anymore that the side exists.)
If the mind is some independent thing, just interacting with the brain to get info about the world and give it orders, all these facts are incomprehensible. If tinkering with the brain changes all these details about the mind, the "independent" part of the mind must be very slim indeed.
I understand not wanting to think the mind arises from the workings of the brain. It seems to cut against many cheerful views about consciousness, afterlife, etc. But it's pointless not to grapple with basic facts about the universe.
