combining cathonine and Guanfacine?

[a5l6o5n2]

Hello fellow bluelighters. I was wondering what are the dangers regarding combining cathonine or one of its analogues with an alpha blocker, specifically Guanfacine). The reason I ask is that I take guanfacine daily (low doses, 0.5 and under) and tonight i got drunk and wrecklessly took alot of cathonine or one of its wierd analogues. (In Israel it is sold legally in most stores and unfourtnatly I'm not sure which analogue of cat it is [stupid, i know]) My chest is slightly hurting and my heart rate is around 120. Now if it's just that I have taken too much cathinone then im not worried but i know that alpha blockers mix badly with some stimulants (like cocaine) and mix safetly with others like amphetamines.

I'm just worried that the combinantion of guanfacine plus cathinone puts extra stress on my heart and that I might have some sort of cardiological problem happening.

I also took 2 mgs of clonazepam to help me calm my heart rate, I have some guanfacine which I can take and which surely help me but I'm scared about combining them.

I'm sorry but im just haveing an anxiety attack and worried that my heart is gonna K.O soon. I'd appreciate fast responses. Sorry for my tl;dr post, im just tweaking and scared shitless. Love you fellow bluelighters and appreciate any help you can offer.

P.S, I also take cipralex/fluoxetine and I was also worried that I might be at a risk for seratonin syndrome. Also sorry for double posting in both here and OD, but im just scared shitless and could really use some help. Luckily I have my best friend

 

[I NUK3D U]

First of all.

Calm down. Take deep breaths in through your nose; hold; and out through your mouth.

Now, only you know how you feel. You haven't actually described any symptoms that would cause immediate concern, however, if you feel like they are worse than you're able to articulate or do not get better within an hour or so, I would recommend you calmly seek medical attention. Nothing to panic about; just a safety measure to make sure you don't panic

 

[TheAzo]

Cathinones are stimulants, and they cause increased heart rate and bp, like any other stimulant. Wait it out - your symptoms sound like standard effects of taking too much of a stimulant, but not to the point of danger. A lot of stimulants (particularly the cathinones) produce a lot of anxiety - well before any physical danger.

There is no specific contraindication between them and guiafenisen (indeed that's often combined with ephedrine, a stimulant, in treatment of asthma)

 

[Rondeau]

the first time my friend took amphetamines, he got carried away in the euphoria. he took a 20mg adderall IR and then a 54mg concerta. he liked it so much he took another concerta. soon after, he started crying and saying that it felt like his chest was on fire. he later told me he was probably having cardiac arrest. we still look back and laugh.

if he survived that (fatal amphetamine overdose is rare), i'm sure you'll be alright.

otherwise, I NUK3D U has very sound advice.

 

[ebola?]

There is no specific contraindication between them and guiafenisen (indeed that's often combined with ephedrine, a stimulant, in treatment of asthma)

He took guanfacine, not guaifenisen (sp on the latter???), the former being a selective alpha-2 adrenergic agonist. I'm not QUITE sure about its interaction with fairly adrenergic-heavy stimulants.

ebola
ebola

 

[MikeHawk]

I know Amphetamine is very similar structurally to Cathinone. I would imagine it reacts with Alpha Blockers in a similar way to Amphetamine. 120bpm is not all that high, you should be fine.

 

[a5l6o5n2]

Cool. Thx guys, Obviously I'm alive.
I wonder though, why is it dangerous to combine alpha/beta blockers with cocaine and not with other stimulants?

 

[Jamshyd]

^ Because they tend to become unpredictable. Sometimes the blockers start acting paradoxically and increase blood pressure when combined with stims.

 

[a5l6o5n2]

^ Because they tend to become unpredictable. Sometimes the blockers start acting paradoxically and increase blood pressure when combined with stims.

But as far as I know it's considered safe to combine amphetamines or methylphenidate, for example, with alpha blockers, but not cocaine. Whats so special about cocaine specifically that makes it dangerous to combine with alpha/beta blockers as opposed to other stims?

 

[fryingsquirrel]

It's alot easier to kill yourself with cocaine than amphetamines in general, I'm sure that's at least part of it.

 

[benzoheadplus44]

i just got prescribed this Guanfacine shit in conjunction with vyvanse... im kinda making sure if anyone knows... because i take 1-2 extra vyvanse throughout the day... i dont tweak... i just try to avoid the comedown, then i sleep at night. not too high of a heart rate at all actually.

would you guys highly recommend not doing that if i start this Guanfacine shit? by what he made it sound like i may not even need to redose Guanfacine will take care of that shit.. he said it would be like a "Boost"... idk though its not like he takes them, he just gives them out. vyvanse really only lasts 6 hours before its coming down, if even, but its done by 8 hours max. thats why i redose.

 

[P A]

Sometimes the blockers start acting paradoxically and increase blood pressure when combined with stims.

Only the beta blockers with intrinsic sympathomimetic activity carry that [very minor] risk. Propranolol and the other commonly prescribed sympatholytics shouldn't be a problem. But either way, combining a BB with a conventional psychostimulant would be pretty inefficient, if not downright worthless for side effect maintenance. Better to stick with the tried-and-true clonidine or a peripheral GABA-ergic (diazepam, nordiazepam, carbamates, and the like).

But as far as I know it's considered safe to combine amphetamines or methylphenidate, for example, with alpha blockers, but not cocaine. Whats so special about cocaine specifically that makes it dangerous to combine with alpha/beta blockers as opposed to other stims?

Despite the prevalent rumor, the risk is still minimal. Cocaine's comparative cardiotoxicity by way of its active metabolites is likely to blame for the weird interactions.

would you guys highly recommend not doing that if i start this Guanfacine shit?

Nope. What you described is perfectly safe and 100% okay from a pharmacologic standpoint, but I highly doubt that guanfacine will be a particularly good option (for much of anything) due its puny status relative to other anti-adrenergic drugs. I'm not sure what your doc's rationale may be in co-prescribing the two (it's either for side effect control or additive benefit...or both), but I strongly suggest you switch to the more efficacious clonidine.

 

[Jamshyd]

^ Straight from wikipedia:

Beta blockers must not be used in the treatment of cocaine, amphetamine, or other alpha adrenergic stimulant overdose. The blockade of only beta receptors increases hypertension, reduces coronary blood flow, left ventricular function, and cardiac output and tissue perfusion by means of leaving the alpha adrenergic system stimulation unopposed.[16] The appropriate antihypertensive drugs to administer during hypertensive crisis resulting from stimulant abuse are vasodilators like nitroglycerin, diuretics like furosemide and alpha blockers like phentolamine.[17]

I realize it is talking about overdose, but I strongly believe that the heart is best left as undisturbed as possible with drug users.

I wouldn't be comfortable saying it is "100% okay" from a Harm Reduction point of view.

 

[P A]

I wouldn't be comfortable saying it is "100% okay" from a Harm Reduction point of view.

If you'll read the quote prefacing that statement, you'll see I was referring specifically to the guanfacine. Which isn't a beta blocker. And is at worst harmless in combination with speed; at best, pretty beneficial and intelligent to use, especially if one is using daily doses and can't risk significant cardiovascular stimulation. This is why the alpha-2 agonists [guanfacine and clonidine] are so commonly co-prescribed with sympathomimetics in the first place.

Either way, comparing dose and overdose is pretty apples-oranges with the pychostimulants. I ingest plenty of methamphetamine on a semi-regular basis and experience exactly the same degree of hypertension from 20mg as I do from 50. On the other hand, were I to IV 100mg in a single sitting, I'm sure I would experience something akin to a medical emergency. In such a special case, drugs with any degree of alpha-liberating action would be absolutely contraindicated. But as I said before, I highly doubt that propranolol [or a comparable BB] would have any substantial effect whatsoever within the context of reasonable stimulant use, as the rise in BP common to these drugs is mediated near-entirely by the alpha-1 receptors (and the intrinsic sympathomimetic activity - the paradoxical property mentioned in that paper - of most beta blockers is negligible in clinically used doses). If one were hellbent on regularly using the sympathomimetics and couldn't tolerate the vascular side effects, I'd first recommend clonidine, which is essentially as benign and tolerable as guanfacine, but with a longer history of clinical efficacy. If that doesn't work, prazosin should clear things up nicely, though not without some risk in long-term therapy.

 

[benzoheadplus44]

^so then if i take an extra one of my add stimulant (dex) on top of this shit, or even an extra few (which i dont do anymore, just an extra one sooometimes) the combination is a-ok? Or should be anyways? I'm talking about guanfacine in comination...

 

[P A]

^so then if i take an extra one of my add stimulant (dex) on top of this shit, or even an extra few (which i dont do anymore, just an extra one sooometimes) the combination is a-ok? Or should be anyways? I'm talking about guanfacine in comination...

...what?

 

[benzoheadplus44]

^ haha nevermind I realize now after some research and asking lots of people on different forums that I find to be credible that A2 agonists don't affect heart rate and are used for people actually overdosing on stims in the hospital for that reason... the combination of amps and the alpha agonists (clonidine, guanfacine) is "safe"...

but what I was asking yesterday was if I took an extra one of my amphetamine, adhd pills on top of the guanfacine (just out of curiosity of it its harmful or not to "abuse" stims and add the a2 agonists on top of it) would I be alright? However I have found the answers I need, and a couple of your posts were helpful too...

especially the one above in the thread somewhere (I don't feel like quoting too lazy right now) where you said you encourage taking something like clonidine or guanfacine on top of psychostims or in conjunction because it can help with high bp effects... Then I got other answers that also pointed to that direction from other people as well.

disregard my previous post.


edit:
That doesn't mean I am going to take a high dose of amphetamine and then take the guanfacine, I was talking hypothetically.