Sentience
Bluelighter
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Colloidal Silver
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Sentience
Bluelighter
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Well....I understand that with smaller particle size you can kill more bacteria with less toxicity, while larger particle size = more toxicitiy with less dead bacteria.
Personally I think the old colloidal silver was overkill....WAY too much. It was meant to kill bacteria immediately in life or death situations.....if you survived you didnt mind the blue skin. Its fairly benign compared to some antibiotics, but penicillin worked better specifically for some common threats back then and it was cheaper to produce.
As far as whats on the market, you dont want the weak ass homeopathic "ionic silver". It might be effective enough to keep some salad from spoiling as fast, but it wont do much to treat illness.
Sovereign Silver has a good reputation, but we are still talking about a mere fraction of the original potency.
Personally I think the old colloidal silver was overkill....WAY too much. It was meant to kill bacteria immediately in life or death situations.....if you survived you didnt mind the blue skin. Its fairly benign compared to some antibiotics, but penicillin worked better specifically for some common threats back then and it was cheaper to produce.
As far as whats on the market, you dont want the weak ass homeopathic "ionic silver". It might be effective enough to keep some salad from spoiling as fast, but it wont do much to treat illness.
Sovereign Silver has a good reputation, but we are still talking about a mere fraction of the original potency.
If it's not peer-reviewed, it's not science. Full stop. I stopped reading after that.
I develop antimicrobial silver applications for a living, it's my job to be informed on this subject, and I have seen nothing yet that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a significant effect from colloidal silver. Lots of anecdotal evidence, but that's only one small step above worthless. Other forms of silver however have been demonstrated to have a significant effect both as antimicrobial agents as well as (potentially-- more research needs to be done to confirm the mechanism) an anti-inflammatory.
The most important advance that medical science had made in the past 200 years wasn't the development of penicillin, vaccination, cracking the genome or anything like that. It was the development of the double-blind study. Until I see some hard, disprovable, objective and empirical data on the subject (peer reviewed as well, of course), I'll stick with systems that have been proven to work.
A sample size of one makes for very poor statistics. /shrug
Mehm-- If you have access to scientific journals through school or work I can pass on some references on silver systems that work. (and if you don't PM me and I'll hope really hard that some PDFs might magically appear in your inbox
)
I develop antimicrobial silver applications for a living, it's my job to be informed on this subject, and I have seen nothing yet that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a significant effect from colloidal silver. Lots of anecdotal evidence, but that's only one small step above worthless. Other forms of silver however have been demonstrated to have a significant effect both as antimicrobial agents as well as (potentially-- more research needs to be done to confirm the mechanism) an anti-inflammatory.
The most important advance that medical science had made in the past 200 years wasn't the development of penicillin, vaccination, cracking the genome or anything like that. It was the development of the double-blind study. Until I see some hard, disprovable, objective and empirical data on the subject (peer reviewed as well, of course), I'll stick with systems that have been proven to work.
A sample size of one makes for very poor statistics. /shrug
Mehm-- If you have access to scientific journals through school or work I can pass on some references on silver systems that work. (and if you don't PM me and I'll hope really hard that some PDFs might magically appear in your inbox
)
Sentience
Bluelighter
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Dude...There are probably thousands of peer reviewed studies on colloidal silver. However, you demanding them is like somebody walking in here and demanding peer reviewed evidence that penicillin kills bacteria.
You do realize that there are standards for getting into the American Medical Pharmacopoeia? That despite corruption, they DO require some real hard evidence before a drug gets approved for mainstream medical use?
This stuff (not necessarily in the same potency or manufacturing method that you find at the health food stores) was THE primary antibiotic that you would get in an emergency room or from a doctor for over a hundred years in the United States of America and all around Europe.
Sorry, but you dont have any grounds to be skeptical. This is not some 'new' or 'fringe' treatment where the verdict is still out and doctors are unsure. This treatment was proven effective hundreds of years ago, used in MAINSTREAM medicine as the PRIMARY go to antibiotic.
This conversation is like talking to somebody who never heard of morphine and is questioning whether there is peer reviewed evidence that its useful in treating pain.
I am not basing my opinion on any specific study, but on the fact that it was the single most popular antibiotic in western medicine for over 100 years.
You do realize that there are standards for getting into the American Medical Pharmacopoeia? That despite corruption, they DO require some real hard evidence before a drug gets approved for mainstream medical use?
This stuff (not necessarily in the same potency or manufacturing method that you find at the health food stores) was THE primary antibiotic that you would get in an emergency room or from a doctor for over a hundred years in the United States of America and all around Europe.
Sorry, but you dont have any grounds to be skeptical. This is not some 'new' or 'fringe' treatment where the verdict is still out and doctors are unsure. This treatment was proven effective hundreds of years ago, used in MAINSTREAM medicine as the PRIMARY go to antibiotic.
This conversation is like talking to somebody who never heard of morphine and is questioning whether there is peer reviewed evidence that its useful in treating pain.
I am not basing my opinion on any specific study, but on the fact that it was the single most popular antibiotic in western medicine for over 100 years.
Sentience
Bluelighter
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You are not going to find a lot of studies on colloidal silver, because it has fallen out of use with the discovery of penicillin.
An argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy. Convincing you isnt my prerogative, but colloidal silver was a mainstream medicine given by trained doctors up until around WW1 or WW2. Fairy recently. We are not talking about the stone ages or back when they used to bleed people.
I wouldnt even know where to look for studies published in the 1930s or around then. I do however know that around that time it was being prescribed by medical doctors and infectious disease specialists.
An argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy. Convincing you isnt my prerogative, but colloidal silver was a mainstream medicine given by trained doctors up until around WW1 or WW2. Fairy recently. We are not talking about the stone ages or back when they used to bleed people.
I wouldnt even know where to look for studies published in the 1930s or around then. I do however know that around that time it was being prescribed by medical doctors and infectious disease specialists.
Radium water was used as a cure-all, cocaine tinctures were given to kids and at one point mercury was used to treat syphilis. Just because something was done once doesn't mean that it's a good idea, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a high standard of evidence when it comes to medical treatment. The company I work for has recently gone through a series of regulatory approvals, including an FDA 510(k) application, all of which involve proving the safety and efficacy of the medical device product; in this case a highly effective, 100% efficient (in that all of the silver is used, rather than a tiny surface oxide layer) antimicrobial silver dressing.
Also, I want to apologize if I've misrepresented my opinion. If it is made properly, colloidal silver can have a small effect. It's just that it's on par with silver chloride, and since the majority of the silver is wasted as inactive metallic silver one is using (or ingesting in some cases) far more silver than one needs to.
Finally, if one is looking in decent journals there should be no issue whatsoever in finding articles from the early 20th century. Granted, most of my experience is with chemical journals, but I've read medical articles from the 20s online, and have a paper at work (in PDF form of course) from the late 19th C.
Oh, and yeah, there isn't much contemporary research in colloidal silver. So I'm going to see if I can get my boss to skim some funds from her budget for me to do some work in that direction next year. If anything else, it'll be valuable to have the comparison, especially since colloidal silver is very much in the zeitgeist right now.
Also, I want to apologize if I've misrepresented my opinion. If it is made properly, colloidal silver can have a small effect. It's just that it's on par with silver chloride, and since the majority of the silver is wasted as inactive metallic silver one is using (or ingesting in some cases) far more silver than one needs to.
Finally, if one is looking in decent journals there should be no issue whatsoever in finding articles from the early 20th century. Granted, most of my experience is with chemical journals, but I've read medical articles from the 20s online, and have a paper at work (in PDF form of course) from the late 19th C.
Oh, and yeah, there isn't much contemporary research in colloidal silver. So I'm going to see if I can get my boss to skim some funds from her budget for me to do some work in that direction next year. If anything else, it'll be valuable to have the comparison, especially since colloidal silver is very much in the zeitgeist right now.
Sentience
Bluelighter
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I dont think you are making fair comparisons, because you are comparing FOLK REMEDIES against TESTED AND PROVEN WESTERN MEDICINES like COLLOIDAL SILVER.
Cocaine tinctures are actually an effective medicine for some things, despite the drawbacks. Mercury probably did cure syphilis, though I dont think its worth poisoning yourself if there is anything better. We still put mercury in peoples fillings...even amalgam puts mercury in your brain and body. Mercury is also in most adult vaccines and the childrens flu shot. Its a preservative. It kills bacteria. I think its use should be banned though.
Radium water? That was a folk remedy, not an official medicine, and certainly not THE SINGLE MOST WIDELY PRESCRIBED ANTIBIOTIC IN ALL OF US WESTERN MEDICINE.
Most of the peer reviewed studies are from the 30s or earlier. You can probably find some comparing penicillin to silver in various infections. I just have no idea where to look for peer reviewed studies from the 30s. Do you? Probably not online. I would have to go to some library somewhere.
I do have an old Physicians almanac from 1934 which talks about colloidal silver being indicated in various infections.
We know that silver kills bacteria. Even if we didnt know that it was probably the most widely prescribed antibiotic in world history, even fairly recently in US mainstream medicine, I dont think it would be a stretch to believe that silver which kills bacteria in all its other forms would also kill bacteria in this form.
Im not saying that what you find in the health food stores is as effective. Its almost certainly a lot weaker.
I would be interested in a big jug of colloidal silver if you can give me a deal on some.
But yeah, cocaine is a beautifully effective treatment for toothache. Its funny that 2 out of 3 of your examples were actually effective for their intended purpose, and the only one that wasnt was a folk remedy and not an official medicine. It kind of contradicts everything you are saying.
Cocaine tinctures are actually an effective medicine for some things, despite the drawbacks. Mercury probably did cure syphilis, though I dont think its worth poisoning yourself if there is anything better. We still put mercury in peoples fillings...even amalgam puts mercury in your brain and body. Mercury is also in most adult vaccines and the childrens flu shot. Its a preservative. It kills bacteria. I think its use should be banned though.
Radium water? That was a folk remedy, not an official medicine, and certainly not THE SINGLE MOST WIDELY PRESCRIBED ANTIBIOTIC IN ALL OF US WESTERN MEDICINE.
Most of the peer reviewed studies are from the 30s or earlier. You can probably find some comparing penicillin to silver in various infections. I just have no idea where to look for peer reviewed studies from the 30s. Do you? Probably not online. I would have to go to some library somewhere.
I do have an old Physicians almanac from 1934 which talks about colloidal silver being indicated in various infections.
We know that silver kills bacteria. Even if we didnt know that it was probably the most widely prescribed antibiotic in world history, even fairly recently in US mainstream medicine, I dont think it would be a stretch to believe that silver which kills bacteria in all its other forms would also kill bacteria in this form.
Im not saying that what you find in the health food stores is as effective. Its almost certainly a lot weaker.
I would be interested in a big jug of colloidal silver if you can give me a deal on some.
But yeah, cocaine is a beautifully effective treatment for toothache. Its funny that 2 out of 3 of your examples were actually effective for their intended purpose, and the only one that wasnt was a folk remedy and not an official medicine. It kind of contradicts everything you are saying.
Jabberwocky
Frumious Bandersnatch
Sentience said:
Medicine isn't just about efficacy. Its efficacy vs side effects, dangers, cost, practicality, etc X-rays were likely efficacious for acne vulgaris as used in the 1950's but most people would agree that its risk/benefit profile doesn't even warrant reinvestigating x-rays for that purpose.
For what indications are you advocating colloidial silver? For a given indication has colloidial silver been tested in comparison to modern agents? I don't know enough about collodial silver to say it is great or bad for any given purpose. 1930's anything isn't going to cause me to assume an agent is the right choice in 2010. I respect peoples right to self experiment and submit information. I'm actually much happier with presentation of medical history rather than testimonials which is the way I've seen CS promoted the most. The testimonial based,almost religious revival feel of much CS promotion is a big part of my personal resistance to the current CS "movement".
If it is a fraction as good as its strongest proponents claim I'm sure there will be no holding CS back for long.
Sentience
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There is probably a reason it fell out of favor after the discovery of penicillin.
I have not advocated its use for anything, though I can think of some uses for it. It can be used to fight mold in upholstery for example. Its also an OTC antibiotic that anyone can make on their own.
I have made no claims about it being superior to penicillin, only that its not purely speculation that it works.
The worst common side effect is that your skin will turn blue and remain blue. It requires a really high dose taken daily for a long time before this happens.
I have not advocated its use for anything, though I can think of some uses for it. It can be used to fight mold in upholstery for example. Its also an OTC antibiotic that anyone can make on their own.
I have made no claims about it being superior to penicillin, only that its not purely speculation that it works.
The worst common side effect is that your skin will turn blue and remain blue. It requires a really high dose taken daily for a long time before this happens.
Dave has acknowledged several times in this thread that colloidal silver is active and "mildly" effective. His main point with silver is that one can turn it into other substances that are even more effective than colloidal and use less silver regent. The main advantage of colloidal in this case is one can easily make it at home. IMO cost is not a factor here. It is maybe a dollar a gallon when you make it yourself.
Sentience
Bluelighter
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Its more than "mildy" effective. It was used to treat serious life threatening illness. Granted, that was before we had better antibiotics like penicillin, but this wasnt just for cuts and bruises or the sniffles or a sore throat. This was the go-to drug when your life was in danger from a bacterial infection. It worked pretty well.
Its true that some other forms of silver are more potent, but they are also a lot more toxic for internal use. I am not a doctor (I have pre-med education and a degree in nutrition/dietietics, some knowledge of basic chemistry, ect), but for internal use I would consume colloidal silver before drinking silver nitrate or eating silver paste used for burns.
Colloidal silver is NOT necessarily better than other prescription antibiotics. The main advantage is that its easy to make on your own (but not cheaper if made large scale in a lab compared to penicillin), fairly safe, and very effective against serious life threatening illness in the right dosage. Perhaps not as effective as penicillin, which is cheaper to mass produce, but effective enough for something you can make in your kitchen.
If you are using the little electrodes you can buy on ebay, that is not true "colloidal silver". Its actually ionic silver. Ionic silver also shows promise for fighting infections, but I dont think there is much serious research on its use in medicine. We have drugs that are cheaper to mass produce that are more effective.
Colloidal silver can kill some nasty infections. It can totally eliminate an infection, even a serious one. People have survived because of colloidal silver where they might have died.....they used really potent silver though at doses with put mild strain on the kidneys, but your skin is likely to turn blue before other more serious side effects manifest. Its a good warning sign. If it wasnt permanent I would say that its an awesome warning signal.
But no, its not just "mildly effective" if you are talking about the original strength used in western allopathic medicine. Other forms might be stronger (silver nitrate), but they are more toxic, and the trade off is not worth it....at least for internal use. Maybe not for external use.
Colloidal silver would be a great thing to know how to make in a disaster zone when you dont have access to conventional antibiotics. It can be used to purify water to make it drinkable (though it wont filter toxins).
I think that being able to make an effective antibiotic in your basement is empowering. Its not better or even safer than conventional antibiotics, but its a level of technology that anyone can have access to in a disaster zone....you never know if you might end up in a hurricane katrina type situation where you need to make sure you dont get disease from the water, assuming there isnt a way to boil it or you dont want to waste what you have in evaporation, or to treat the sick with nothing but a piece of silver and some electrodes. I think its pretty cool.
FYI, the stuff you are making is possible 0.03% of the potency of the stuff they used in emergency medicine. It might take a lot to kill a serious infection.....you might want to see if you can find some research, even small scale anecdotal research, to get some idea of how potent your stuff is and what dosage is effective at that potency.
Its true that some other forms of silver are more potent, but they are also a lot more toxic for internal use. I am not a doctor (I have pre-med education and a degree in nutrition/dietietics, some knowledge of basic chemistry, ect), but for internal use I would consume colloidal silver before drinking silver nitrate or eating silver paste used for burns.
Colloidal silver is NOT necessarily better than other prescription antibiotics. The main advantage is that its easy to make on your own (but not cheaper if made large scale in a lab compared to penicillin), fairly safe, and very effective against serious life threatening illness in the right dosage. Perhaps not as effective as penicillin, which is cheaper to mass produce, but effective enough for something you can make in your kitchen.
If you are using the little electrodes you can buy on ebay, that is not true "colloidal silver". Its actually ionic silver. Ionic silver also shows promise for fighting infections, but I dont think there is much serious research on its use in medicine. We have drugs that are cheaper to mass produce that are more effective.
Colloidal silver can kill some nasty infections. It can totally eliminate an infection, even a serious one. People have survived because of colloidal silver where they might have died.....they used really potent silver though at doses with put mild strain on the kidneys, but your skin is likely to turn blue before other more serious side effects manifest. Its a good warning sign. If it wasnt permanent I would say that its an awesome warning signal.
But no, its not just "mildly effective" if you are talking about the original strength used in western allopathic medicine. Other forms might be stronger (silver nitrate), but they are more toxic, and the trade off is not worth it....at least for internal use. Maybe not for external use.
Colloidal silver would be a great thing to know how to make in a disaster zone when you dont have access to conventional antibiotics. It can be used to purify water to make it drinkable (though it wont filter toxins).
I think that being able to make an effective antibiotic in your basement is empowering. Its not better or even safer than conventional antibiotics, but its a level of technology that anyone can have access to in a disaster zone....you never know if you might end up in a hurricane katrina type situation where you need to make sure you dont get disease from the water, assuming there isnt a way to boil it or you dont want to waste what you have in evaporation, or to treat the sick with nothing but a piece of silver and some electrodes. I think its pretty cool.
FYI, the stuff you are making is possible 0.03% of the potency of the stuff they used in emergency medicine. It might take a lot to kill a serious infection.....you might want to see if you can find some research, even small scale anecdotal research, to get some idea of how potent your stuff is and what dosage is effective at that potency.
carbon unit
Bluelighter
Personal anecdote ...
My mom had shingles and after a few doses (topically) of colloidal silver she felt immediate relief and it started clearing up quite fast. Nothing else seemed to help till I got some for her.
My mom had shingles and after a few doses (topically) of colloidal silver she felt immediate relief and it started clearing up quite fast. Nothing else seemed to help till I got some for her.
Edit-- This is @Sentience:
a) you have absolutely no clue what I'm making, it's strength, effectiveness, or even it's colour. Please quit making this assumption.
b) I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over again.
Cite a source, L2science, etc. Enjoy getting the last word in.
No hard feelings btw-- I'm just getting bored of this thread. I'm not likely to convince you, as you don't consider chemical evidence as valid. Fair enough; it's not an uncommon opinion, and as I don't have any strong negative evidence other than confidential lab notebooks I can't properly refute you. Be well.
a) you have absolutely no clue what I'm making, it's strength, effectiveness, or even it's colour. Please quit making this assumption.
b) I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over again.
Cite a source, L2science, etc. Enjoy getting the last word in.
No hard feelings btw-- I'm just getting bored of this thread. I'm not likely to convince you, as you don't consider chemical evidence as valid. Fair enough; it's not an uncommon opinion, and as I don't have any strong negative evidence other than confidential lab notebooks I can't properly refute you. Be well.
Sentience
Bluelighter
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I said 'may be'. I didnt say 'is'.
I dont think I have ever seen a product being sold at a health food store that was more than 1% of the original strength, and I have seen them as low as 0.00001%. I have done real chemical testing, not just speculation. This is from experience. I have reason to believe that people using the electrode method are not able to reproduce the concentrations found in the original formulas, regardless of how long they 'steep' the silver for. I dont know your method, but if you are using electrodes, I cannot be certain but I highly DOUBT you are able to produce the same concentrations.
I am sorry for speculating as it obviously offended you, but I have seen a lot of colloidal silver operations, and not a single person has ever approached 1% of the original strength using home technology......No, I have not tested your batch, but this is just a general assumption I have after testing hundreds of different manufactures.
And why do you make the stuff if you are so skeptical? Money? Hardly seems ethical. I wouldnt buy silver from a supplier who didnt believe in what they were doing and couldnt tell me in ppm how strong it was.
I dont think I have ever seen a product being sold at a health food store that was more than 1% of the original strength, and I have seen them as low as 0.00001%. I have done real chemical testing, not just speculation. This is from experience. I have reason to believe that people using the electrode method are not able to reproduce the concentrations found in the original formulas, regardless of how long they 'steep' the silver for. I dont know your method, but if you are using electrodes, I cannot be certain but I highly DOUBT you are able to produce the same concentrations.
I am sorry for speculating as it obviously offended you, but I have seen a lot of colloidal silver operations, and not a single person has ever approached 1% of the original strength using home technology......No, I have not tested your batch, but this is just a general assumption I have after testing hundreds of different manufactures.
And why do you make the stuff if you are so skeptical? Money? Hardly seems ethical. I wouldnt buy silver from a supplier who didnt believe in what they were doing and couldnt tell me in ppm how strong it was.
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Sentience
Bluelighter
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But yeah, I apologize for making assumptions just because I have never previously found anyone making potent silver using home methods. The original stuff had color even without shinning a light on it.
But still, why would you be arguing in favor of more powerful silver compounds when these compounds are generally unsafe for internal consumption?
But still, why would you be arguing in favor of more powerful silver compounds when these compounds are generally unsafe for internal consumption?
tommy34
Bluelighter
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Colloidal silver?
Hey everyone, I work in a fruit and vedge shop with a health food section, we sell Colloidal silver along with copper and all sorts of metals in a water suspension. The health food ladies swear by it, they drink it spray it ect... I'm yet to see how investing a metal even in a Colloidal form can be good for you. Can anyone shed some light on this for me please? I use it externally for its antibacterial properties.
Hey everyone, I work in a fruit and vedge shop with a health food section, we sell Colloidal silver along with copper and all sorts of metals in a water suspension. The health food ladies swear by it, they drink it spray it ect... I'm yet to see how investing a metal even in a Colloidal form can be good for you. Can anyone shed some light on this for me please? I use it externally for its antibacterial properties.