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Codiene to morphine calculations

chugs

chugs

Bluelighter
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Messages
2,026
hello again

So i'm confused. I've been on a bit of a splurge with opiates. Having about a 1gram of heroin over the last 3 months (with about 2 week spaces in between splurges). So i'm thinking i've got a little bit of a tolerance going. Anyway as I start slowing it down I've moved over to substitute, that being 30mg codeine phosphate tablets (no apap).

So if 10% (optimistically) of the codeine you digest is converted into morphine then to get the average dose of oral morphine, 40mg or so, I would need to digest 400mg of codeine which is clearly wrong since I can get by with only 180mg of codeine and therefore an average dose of morphine of 9-18mg of morphine. Now I never measured my doses of heroin, just eyeball them (but I take several shots to test the strength) however 180mg feels quite similar to what I would have measured as a strong dose of heroin.

Sources are wiki re the conversion rate and ask.com that states 0.5mg of morphine per kg of body weight is the way to calculate an average dose/analgesic effect of morphine (which 90kg X 0.5 = 45).

That said am I doing the maths right with the conversion of codeine to morphine? Are there other factors that I am not taking into account?

Lastly with Intravenously administered heroin I've read once it passes into the brain that it deacetylated into various substances, namely morphine. How much of the heroin is deacetylated (I'll read that word as a fancy way of saying converted) into morphine? 100%

To mods please merge into the codeine thread if you think it belongs there.
 
I'm not sure on this one but you should also take into account that morphine has a terrible oral bioavailability so subjectively comparing codeine to oral morphine may skew your figures?
 
Interesting that 180mg codeine does the trick for you. Wish I could say the same.
 
Also the amount that actually gets metabolised to morphine varys greatly from person to person.

Your CYP2D6 genotype is the reason for this. For example, I can take ~500mg codiene and feel nothing. And you'd rate 180mg as on par with a good dose of H 8o

Good for you ... :|
 
interestingly the calcuatlors indicate a similar result to what I achieved with the conversion

I would imagine the trick now is instead of wasting codeine is to improve the efficency of the "deacetylated" function i.e. digest a inhibitor of CYP2D6. time to read the thread on that process now.
 
chugs said:
interestingly the calcuatlors indicate a similar result to what I achieved with the conversion

I would imagine the trick now is instead of wasting codeine is to improve the efficency of the "deacetylated" function i.e. digest a inhibitor of CYP2D6. time to read the thread on that process now.
Click to expand...

Ahh if your talking about increasing codiene > morphine conversion then you'll actually want an inducer of CYP2D6. :)

Dosing an inhibitor and you'll be in the same ball park as my shitty metabolism...
 
Fucking crazy that such a small amount of morphine is metabolised from codeine. Makes you wonder whether the average person would really get anything from taking a couple of nurofen plus. 2.5-4mg of morphine... would anyone really feel that?

I remember once when I bought some N+ the pharmacist asked me if I find the nurofen plus more effective than regular nurofen. He claimed it was because some people believe that such a small amount of codeine really isnt going to do anything, and that the only people that use the medication are people who abuse it. I could see that as a reality.
 
^ yeh Mr Blonde linked a study in a recent codeine thread that found that codeine only really has any theraputic value at doses over 30mg. I.e. two nurofen plus or two standard panadeine isn't going to have more than a placebo effect on most people.
 
L3inad said:
Ahh if your talking about increasing codiene > morphine conversion then you'll actually want an inducer of CYP2D6. :)

Dosing an inhibitor and you'll be in the same ball park as my shitty metabolism...
Click to expand...

oops yeah i just realised that I needed a inducer. now where is that thread :)
 
On the flip side, I've noticed that even with a decent opiate tolerance, low doses of codeine in unison with paracetemol and ibuprofen offer greater pain relief than para/ibu by themselves, as well as a slight mood lifting effect. I quite regularly pop 4 - 8 panadeine and 4 - 8 N+ for a combined 80 - 160mg or so of codiene on top of the para/ibu, and find it far more effective than if I took just regular panadol/nurofen, though I'm willing to acknowledge the possibility of this being a placebo.

(And yes, I'm quite aware of how unhealthy this is, and certainly don't recommend it to anyone.)
 
Yeah you could be right. I remember a girl I used to know at uni claimed 2 nurofen plus just knocked her out. Put her to sleep.

I was just starting to discover opiates at the time (this was back in the splittable days... RIP splittable n+ :(:p ) and remember being pretty jealous of her claim. She did strike as someone who would be prone to the placebo effect though. Bit of a silly blonde.
 
pinkanga said:
She did strike as someone who would be prone to the placebo effect though. Bit of a silly blonde.
Click to expand...

Not trying to be picky, but susceptibility to the placebo effect has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence or personality :)
 
Yeah I know. Was even thinking while I was writing it but I was just too lazy to delete and rewrite it.

All good.
 
chugs said:
hello again

So i'm confused. I've been on a bit of a splurge with opiates. Having about a 1gram of heroin over the last 3 months (with about 2 week spaces in between splurges). So i'm thinking i've got a little bit of a tolerance going. Anyway as I start slowing it down I've moved over to substitute, that being 30mg codeine phosphate tablets (no apap).

So if 10% (optimistically) of the codeine you digest is converted into morphine then to get the average dose of oral morphine, 40mg or so, I would need to digest 400mg of codeine which is clearly wrong since I can get by with only 180mg of codeine and therefore an average dose of morphine of 9-18mg of morphine. Now I never measured my doses of heroin, just eyeball them (but I take several shots to test the strength) however 180mg feels quite similar to what I would have measured as a strong dose of heroin.

Sources are wiki re the conversion rate and ask.com that states 0.5mg of morphine per kg of body weight is the way to calculate an average dose/analgesic effect of morphine (which 90kg X 0.5 = 45).

That said am I doing the maths right with the conversion of codeine to morphine? Are there other factors that I am not taking into account?

Lastly with Intravenously administered heroin I've read once it passes into the brain that it deacetylated into various substances, namely morphine. How much of the heroin is deacetylated (I'll read that word as a fancy way of saying converted) into morphine? 100%

To mods please merge into the codeine thread if you think it belongs there.
Click to expand...


Mate be very careful with your shenaningans....'180mg of codeine feels like a strong heroin high' -either you are taking a tiny amount or the H is quite weak. IME codeine is like an ultra-weak form of H and its ceiling affects around 500mg prevent it from feeling anything I would consider a reasonable H high. And I don't have a big tolerance. Bottom line, never eyeball heroin. Just invest in a set of proper scales (cheap on ebay/web).
 
Crankinit said:
On the flip side, I've noticed that even with a decent opiate tolerance, low doses of codeine in unison with paracetemol and ibuprofen offer greater pain relief than para/ibu by themselves, as well as a slight mood lifting effect. I quite regularly pop 4 - 8 panadeine and 4 - 8 N+ for a combined 80 - 160mg or so of codiene on top of the para/ibu, and find it far more effective than if I took just regular panadol/nurofen, though I'm willing to acknowledge the possibility of this being a placebo.

(And yes, I'm quite aware of how unhealthy this is, and certainly don't recommend it to anyone.)
Click to expand...

if you have a reasonably strong stomach and dont drink alcohol much, then the ibuprofen is not a biggy IMO. The paracetamol is definitely a shit show-you should stop that or do a CWE.
 
What was it? said:
if you have a reasonably strong stomach and dont drink alcohol much, then the ibuprofen is not a biggy IMO. The paracetamol is definitely a shit show-you should stop that or do a CWE.
Click to expand...

The ibuprofen actually seems to cause more problems than the paracetemol does, I used to take a lot more of it, but now I generally can't take more than 600mg or so at a time because it gives an awful stomach ache, especially on anything close to an empty stomach. The hepatoxicity from the paracetemol is worrying, but I've had my liver checked periodically over the last few years and it's always come up healthy.

I agree that a CWE is preferable if using purely for recreational purposes, but when I just want to pop a few tablets to stop my back aching, I find that the paracetemol and ibuprofen actually increase the analgesia noticeably, compared to a low dose codeine CWE.
 
I have always felt when performing CWE regularly that I would experience acid reflux symptoms after extended periods of using ibuprofen preparations and have never noted this from using paracetamol. As someone who drinks a lot of alcohol and likes to dose CWE on a completely empty stomach I feel that paracetamol formulations safer to use for CWE. I would also note that for whatever reason para extractions seem to come out cleaner in general. When eating straight tablets however I think paracetamol is worse.
 
belarki said:
^ yeh Mr Blonde linked a study in a recent codeine thread that found that codeine only really has any theraputic value at doses over 30mg. I.e. two nurofen plus or two standard panadeine isn't going to have more than a placebo effect on most people.
Click to expand...

not sure of what link that is, probably the TGA review into why cutting down pack sizes didn't really cause the hardship that some have said, basically saying OTC codeine products when used as directed don't have a theraputic effect anyway, so limiting a supply of a product that has no theraputic value {codeine/paracetamol combo} means very little.

Also interesting to note is that not even panadeine extra is a clinically proven pain killer any stronger than just the paracetamol content. 30mg codeine is supposed to have minimum therapeutic properties in studies but panadeine extra would need to have 19.2mg of codeine phosphate per tablet, it only has 15mg. But in saying that I"M sure panadeine extra {2 tablets} would work for some people better than 2 tablets of paracetamol
 
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