Yeah fair enough.
"The development of tolerance increases the potentially toxic doses. In volunteer studies individuals could tolerate up to 240 mg by mouth, 4 times daily (Reynolds, 1982)."
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/codeine.htm#DivisionTitle:7.2.1.1 Adults
I guess I've only heard about big doses from tolerant people so heuristic availability makes me think it's higher than 800mg. A CYP2D6 extensive metaboliser took 1900mg without issue (though that's insane!) Another opiate naive low metaboliser took 600mg without issue. These could just be two rarities though, and I don't suggest doing either of those! Obviously the literature is far more reliable than a couple of isolated experiences.
Would high/low CYP26 metabolism affect the LD50? I'm not sure whether the danger comes from having too much morphine and CG6 or too much codeine?
Thought I'd bump this thread up to add a few cents and questions...
for one, I am doing more research into potentiators since I've reached an apparent celing to my doseage (there does seem to be a ceiling limit.. although I've not done *alot* of experiments above 600mg) and Ive also gained quite a tolerance..
I've been taking codeine multiple times daily for 3 years now.
- over the counter 12.8mg codeine + 200mg ibuprofen tablets CWE...
these days I take anywhere from 250 to 500 mg each dose - either 2 or 3 times a day, depending on how much money I have for the week... I can still get 'high' off 250, but I find myself feeling not 1/10th as high as I used to, and it fades much quicker.
Anyhow.. I agree.. be careful with newb doseage. treat it as though it has a low LD50.
From my experiences compared to those of my friends, I've been blessed with the higher than normal amount of CYP2D6 - and from what I can guess, if I'd taken over say 300mg back when I had zero tolerance, I could perhaps have died.. I was taking 16 x 12.8mg (~200mg) pills CWEd or 8-12 if i was drinking as well, and I regularly would be nodding uncontrollably (I lived with an ex-heroin addict at the time.. yes.. real proper nodding, not just lazy daydreaming..)
(amounts would have been less technically - I since learnt that back then I was losing quite a portion of the codeine during CWE by not running water through the cloth I used after running the CWE liquid through - I used a teatowel or tshirt which retained quite a bit of the original liquid... rookie mistake
I would guess about 10% loss, since I could run water through 4 - 5 old gunk blobs still in the fabric filter, and end up with enough codeine to get high!)
On to potentiators:
Grapefruit juice (CYP3A4 inhibitor - theoretically useful) - didn't seem to do much for me at all.. Perhaps UTG2B7/CYP3A4 opiate metabolism or simply amounts of each enzyme are differently balanced in every person? Actually some times i felt like i was even less high.. weird.
Promethazine (CYP2D6 inhibitor - theoretically useless, or even counterproductive)
I'm in the process of trialling promethazine.. Investigating it simply due to its claim to fame.. sometimes there is a reason for something to become popular.
Unfortunately there seems nothing to it. (nor does there seem to be any reason there should be.. cyp2d6 inhibition is the opposite of useful!)
I'm trying my last experiment tonight which is 250mg codeine, then 70mg promethazine once I have come up on the codeine, to see what happens when you limit cyp2d6 after the bulk of the conversion is done.
(my hypothesis: nothing, except for the separate promethazine effect of making me more sleepy/less buzz-ey)
Now I have a question for bluelight...
Has anyone attempted to use UTG2B7 inhibitors to prevent opiate breakdown? (which I assume would lengthen the high - the biggest problem with codeine IMO compared to other opiates)
There's a thread here talking about black pepper being used as a source of piperine but nobody has mentioned any results of experiments yet.. guess I'm gonna have to be the guinea pig hey?
They seemed to think that one of the metabolites of UGT2B7 also increased the euphoria of the opiate high and felt that it might even be counterproductive to stop it's production, but they didn't give much of an argument or description so this seems dubious to me.
Any fellow long term codeine addicts out here? In a way it really sucks that I haven't been able to move onto proper opiates.. but I guess its a blessing in disguise too.