Cleanest stims for chronic use?

[tricomb]

How harmful is it to take 5-10mg dextromethamphetamine (Desoxyn) ?

How much of this can you dose before it's too neurotoxic*, 20mg? 40mg?

*and what's is too neurotoxic?

 

[Dysphoric]

I've been so unmotivated and somewhat Anhedonic, I need something. I have a full bottle of Desoxyn I got prescribed about 8 months ago and haven't even touched it, but I'm too concerned about neurotoxicity and frankly I want to keep my tolerance down on amps and feel the pure bliss I felt years ago sometime in the near future. I haven't touched any amps in about 15-16months now, so I would rather not take intermittent doses of Desoxyn.

I recently heard of Fencamfamine, is it any good for motivation, mood lift, classical stimulant positives?

 

[tricomb]

Yeah I have literally tens of thousands of Desoxyn that I didn't take, I almost never use this prescription, and avoid it at all costs. It takes a lot of mental "psyching up" for me to put that small white OV 12 in my mouth and swallow it. That's why I want to know how bad it is for me to take, say 5, 10, 15, or 20mg, how much is too much? And as for frequency, how frequent is too frequent in your opinions?

 

[Dysphoric]

Caffeine increases D2 receptor sensitivity

Wait, what?

So, in theory if I consume caffeine for a while and then say take some Amphetamines, I would feel the effects more so than if I were to abstain from Caffeine consumption? IIRC D2 plays a big role in the euphoria or "desirable effects" caused by Amphetamines.\

I also found Nomifensine very interesting. Is it possible to still get that prescribed?

 

[sekio]

Re: the desoxyn debacle

I am not a doctor and my word shouldn't be taken as absolute truth without independent confirmation. I don't regularly use amphetamines and don't have a PHD in such. That said...

I have heard all sorts of figures suggesting methamphetamine is somewhere from twice as potent a "subjective experience", to equipotent with amphetamine, weight by weight, administered orally in man. The cell assays suggest otherwise. This presents somewhat of a problem for figuring out how much more toxic it is...
I personally feel that the neurotoxicity of d-methamphetamine is intrinsic to the compound's structure and very high affinity for the monoamine transporters. Amphetamine itself is in the dubiously gray area of having many studies that show overconsumption, large or continued doses, and reckless behaviour associated with drug-taking are definitely detrimental in the long-term to mental and physical health. However, it seems small doses, or infrequent use, shows somewhat less toxicity with amphetamine. I have yet to actually see evidence of amphetamine inducing cell death, or decreasing brain volume in humans treated with "reasonable" doses. I expect this principle holds true for methamphetamine at some level - but as it's much less prescribed and more widely availiable in a "street" form, most of the research deals with people who are self-administering large amounts. The question still remains if the toxicity threshold is above or below the threshold of acceptable stimulation.


TL;DR: Stick with the FDA's recommendation to take not more than 5mg at once. I can guess with reasonable certainty that 100mg of methamphetamine is probably going to be toxic, but the real problem is finding that "bottom limit".

 

[Dysphoric]

Re: the desoxyn debacle
TL;DR: Stick with the FDA's recommendation to take not more than 5mg at once.

5mgs is actually sedating, which would make it useless. My script says to take 1-2 at a time up to twice a daily, doc even says I could take three since it used to come in a 15mg form.

That being said, I can't see how it would be that much worse than normal amps, I mean 10-15mgs certainly can't be that bad. If what your saying is true, than would 15mgs of D-meth = 30mgs of D-amp? 30mg dose of D-amp is considerably average. In my experience I would think Amphetamines would almost be worse than Methamphetamine (at lower doses), because the crashes from Amphetamines can be brutal, were as Methamphetamine is very light, not to mention that it's easier to get to sleep on D-meth than D-Amp.

 

[tricomb]

My psych allows me to dose with my best judgement, so there's no real set limit on my daily dose, he advised not to go over 40mg due to likelihood of insomnia (something I have a regular problem with). During the induction phase I found that 20mg/day worked great for me (I was in school and working at the time) so he never gives me less than 20-40mg/day with plenty of extras, sometimes the script is for 300 pills, sometimes its for 900, I have no idea how my psychiatrist calculates these, random, if you will, amounts, but it's never less than enough for 20mg/day w/ PRN so as many "as needed" doses as I need.

I like the guy, he may overprescribe but he's very compassionate and actually cares about the underlying issues and all in all is a great guy. Too bad I have to find a new psychiatrist, I sincerely hope they won't give me any shit about filling my scripts, but even if they did I'm already drowning in desoxyn so it wouldn't be the end of the world, I have plenty of time to find a new psychiatrist.

But yeah, to sum it up, I rarely take Desoxyn, usually only a couple of times a month, at the most maybe twice a week, in doses under 15mg.

/rant

 

[sekio]

What I'm saying is that there may be little or no correlation between the drug's subjective effects ("feeling smooth/stimulated") and neurotoxicity, and studies have only established that damage does occur eventually- they do not put a definitve floor or ceiling on it, so caution is needed.

Time and time again, metahmphetamine causes monoamine release at concentrations lower than that of amphetamine. Thus it just doesn't make any fucking sense to claim amphetamine is more toxic than meth, assuming that monoamine release is the maor mediating factor in celltox here.

 

[Dysphoric]

Yeah, it's a damn shame that Amphetamines have to have so many draw backs. If they weren't neurotoxic and such, they would be a miracle drug, especially if there was no obvious tolerance to them. I would love a drug like that for daily use, I would get so much more done, and would be a hell of a lot less anhedonic/bored all the time. Too bad it's only a pipedream at least for now.

Although, for real though. Does anyone know much about Nomifensine? Is it still possible to get prescribed? What about Fencamfamine? Is it any good?

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Well to give a bit of an idea for the "magic number" is 0.5mg/kg or 35-40mgish according to a Ricaurte (SP?) study in higher primates. Granted that was just showing significant downregulation of DA markers over about a month. But, there are a lot of unknowns still.

Moral of the story is dose low and avoid using without breaks.

 

[Dysphoric]

Well to give a bit of an idea for the "magic number" is 0.5mg/kg or 35-40mgish according to a Ricaurte (SP?) study in higher primates. Granted that was just showing significant downregulation of DA markers over about a month. But, there are a lot of unknowns still.

Moral of the story is dose low and avoid using without breaks.

What are you talking about, Methamphetamine?

 

[tricomb]

I think he was responding to me, in regards to d-methamphetamine.

 

[sekio]

Diclofensine was availiable at a few vendors supposedly a few years back - I think it turned out that it was another stupid fucking overhyped drug like naphyrone. The rumor at the time was it induced homosexuality in chimps or something. (n=1 probably ) Of course, it turned out to be another worthless mild stimulant. Perhaps it was fake, or ... who knows. I don't want to touch isoquinolines, personally. Too many of them are neurotoxic or just plain nasty WRT huge fat solubility.

I don't like the aromatic amine in nomifensine - nor the tox shit

Nomifensine was withdrawn in the US, Canada and the UK for a risk of haemolytic anaemia.[8] Some deaths were linked to immunohaemolytic anemia caused by this compound although the mechanism remained unclear.[9]

Fencamfamine/camfetamine seems an OK stimulant - it's not expected to be as toxic as amphetamine if we go by monoamine release. Basically expect a suped version of methylphenidate.

 

[Dysphoric]

Diclofensine was availiable at a few vendors supposedly a few years back - I think it turned out that it was another stupid fucking overhyped drug like naphyrone. The rumor at the time was it induced homosexuality in chimps or something. (n=1 probably ) Of course, it turned out to be another worthless mild stimulant. Perhaps it was fake, or ... who knows. I don't want to touch isoquinolines, personally. Too many of them are neurotoxic or just plain nasty WRT huge fat solubility.

I don't like the aromatic amine in nomifensine - nor the tox shit

Weird, from what I read it was a very effective and had benign side effects. I don't see how a few people dying equals pulling it off the market over a RARE blood disorder.

Fencamfamine/camfetamine seems an OK stimulant - it's not expected to be as toxic as amphetamine if we go by monoamine release. Basically expect a suped version of methylphenidate.

Are you sure it would be anything like MPH? I can't really find anything on this substance either, would you think it would be effective for intermittent use? I actually found Focalin useful, especially since it wasn't neurotoxic, but the crash was one of the worst out of all the stimulants I've used.

 

[sekio]

The lack of an ester group on fencamfamine means you should expect a smoother & longer duration then with methylphenidate.

Fencamfamine's pharmacology has been studied, camfetamine's has not - to my knowledge. I have heard from several places that fencamfamine is relatively benign and well-tolerated. It acts as a reuptake inhibitor with somewhere near 1/10th of amphetamine's effect as a releasing agent.

 

[Dysphoric]

The lack of an ester group on fencamfamine means you should expect a smoother & longer duration then with methylphenidate.

Fencamfamine's pharmacology has been studied, camfetamine's has not - to my knowledge. I have heard from several places that fencamfamine is relatively benign and well-tolerated. It acts as a reuptake inhibitor with somewhere near 1/10th of amphetamine's effect as a releasing agent.

Interesting. I'm curious as to why there's little information about it. I wonder if AD(H)D would be a legitimate reason for getting it prescribed, I mean it even says that it's prescribed for "lack of concentration". I would really just like something that I could take more often for daily tasks (mood lift, motivation, etc...) I mean, I could take my Desoxyn, but I don't want to deal with all of the repercussions, I would rather just use it for cramming for school or even recreationally, even at around just 15-25mgs.

I guess I might bring it up with my doctor.

Edit: Fuck! I can't seem to find much of anything on it, please tell me I can get this in America! I even checked my insurance website to see if it would cover this drug, but it wasn't listed... It seems like every suitable drug I find is either illegal, not approved yet, or taken off the market due to a few insignificant deaths!

 

[sekio]

Fencamfamine (Glucoenergan, Reactivan) is a stimulant which was developed in the 1960s as an appetite suppressant, but was later withdrawn for this application due to problems with dependence and abuse.

Ain't looking good. There were a lot of stims developed pre-1975 but legislation whittled it down (mostly) into methylphenidate and the amphetamines by the late 90's, all mostly with the same excuse... Other casualties include prolintane, diphenylprolinol, benzphetamine, aminorex, phenmetrazine, pemoline, et cetera. You might be able to find these in some dusty corner but they have for the most part fallen out of use.

I know phenmetrazine and probably pemoline are worth checking out too. The Beatles in particular liked phenmetrazine.

 

[Dysphoric]

Fencamfamine (Glucoenergan, Reactivan) is a stimulant which was developed in the 1960s as an appetite suppressant, but was later withdrawn for this application due to problems with dependence and abuse.

That's horse shit! So it's okay to have Methamphetamine, Oxycontin, Methylphenidate, etc... on the market? Even though the abuse potential is probably 10x greater, and not to mention some (Amphetamines) are actually damaging, I'm at loss for words. Isn't that what the whole scheduling/regulation system is for?

I know phenmetrazine and probably pemoline are worth checking out too. The Beatles in particular liked phenmetrazine.

What's the difference between Amphetamines and phenmetrazine they're both RA's so wouldn't it be neurotoxic as well, not to mention that it's prescribed for weight loss, I don't need that.

"Because of its association with life threatening hepatic failure CYLERT (pemoline) should not ordinarily be considered as first line drug therapy "
-_________________-

REALLY?! Not only that, but I see nothing mood brightening about it.

Okay, I guess I'll never get better.

So, there is no way of getting Fencamfamine at all? This seems to be the most promising.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

I dun derped... It's for an Adderall like amphetamine mixture.

 

[tricomb]

Ah yes, Preludin... helluva drug.

From what I know, which isn't much, I think that for most people, low dose Dexedrine would be the best for long term use, but of course it varies on a case by case basis.