Circumcision?

[ruffiano]

I'm circumcised
I'm sure it's a traumatic experience for a couple or single parent to witness a circumcision. I really don't remember ever getting cut. So I guess it wasn't such a traumatic experience for me.
I really don't have any room for comparison considering I'm used to having a circumcised penis. Other then that, I like it the way it is.
Yes, I would have my son circumcised.
ruffiano

 

[fairnymph]

In regards to cervical cancer and circumcision -- guess what? If you pull out all of someone's teeth, they'll have 0% tooth decay!! So we should pull out everyone's teeth, and give them fake/non-rotting teeth instead, or maybe not even give them fake teeth, just eat liquid foods!
You see, the problem with this kind of logic is as follows. In the medical world, the most fundamental philosophy is to treat a medical problem in the safest, simplest, easiest, least radical way possible. I.e., if you have an infection, treat the infection with antibiotics, don't amputate the infected tissue. The same goes for cancer. Eating a healthy diet and exercising are strong preventative measures that every woman can take to reduce her chances of getting cancer. These are much less extreme, as well as more effective (and more far-reaching -- this treatment/preventative measure reduces chances not just of cervical cancer but of all cancer) methods of preventing cervical cancer. Amputation (especially of healthy tissue!) is RADICAL form of treatment, and should never be considered except as a last resort.
What it boils down to is the fact that doctors want to make money -- the 3 minute operation is $300 in their wallets, and paid by most insurance companies, even though the birth control pill is STILL not covered by most insurance companies!!
I could get into the psychological justification and rationalization of circumcision (basically: people who have been abused usally end up abusing their children, thus men who are circumcised want to circumcise their sons), but I won't do so at length here unless there is interest.

 

[sunEdltye]

my penis is circumsized and i'm glad it is. uncircumsized penises look like giant slugs. yuck!

 

[Chameleon]

I have two sons. I had them both circumsized. My first husband (father of my oldest) and I had no debates over whether or not to circumsize our son. My second husband and I had some debate over it. In the end "looks" won out. My husband was not circumsized and then at the age of 12 decided to be circumsized. The circumstances are very strange imho, however the bottom line was that he was traumatized by it in some ways and in some ways regrets having done it. However, when making the decision to circumsize the youngest boy we decided that he may encounter the same things that his father did in regards to looking different, even than his own father, to make him decide to cut his foreskin and not to keep it. Therefore we had it done.
I may not have made the decision for either of them if I had been aware of any other options when I began the journey of motherhood....I had never been with an uncircumsized male. (still haven't for that matter) I was very neive when I was 19 and had my son.
But I would agree (pardon my long-windedness) that it is part of American Society, no matter how it came about, money or politics of medicine or hygiene. No matter, I had my children circumsized so they would look like most other children. May be a shame.....but it's true. Too bad they don't educate us about the ALLs of sex when we are younger.

 

[min]

<<I could get into the psychological justification and rationalization of circumcision (basically: people who have been abused usally end up abusing their children, thus men who are circumcised want to circumcise their sons), but I won't do so at length here unless there is interest.>>
I don't see a connection here at all.
Yes, it's a known fact that people who have been abused often (but not always) abuse their children. However, your claim requires that men not only have some memory of circumcision, but that they construe that memory as abuse--something I've heard no evidence for.
--It's a safe bet that most, if not all men who were circumcised as newborns have no memory of the event. I sure don't. That doesn't mean it wasn't excruciating--but I don't remember it.
--It's also a safe bet that most circumcised men do not, and have not perceived what happened to them as abuse; it's simply the way they've grown up. Again, this doesn't mean they have to like what happened to them, or see it as justified--only that they don't see it as abuse.
People who say that it is seen as abuse even though it's not remembered as abuse sound like the Freudians, who say that all women hold a secret resentment that they don't have a penis, and that boys really want to marry their mothers. See, if you say that you don't have penis envy or an Oedipus complex, that only proves you're in "denial". What a perfect fraud.
It would be like a society which gives all its male infants identical tattoos one week after birth. These people would go through their whole lives complacently, until someone without a tattoo comes up to them and says:
No-Tattoo: You don't know it, but you were abused.
Guy: What?
No-Tattoo: You were! Look at your arm! Do you know how painful that was to you as an infant, how unnecessary?!
Guy: Uh...no.
No-Tattoo: You don't remember it, I know, but somewhere in the Freudian recesses of your mind, there is deep and boiling resentment of that tattoo, that will result in you afflicting any sons you have with that same deformity!
Guy: Yeah, right. This is just the convention over here; I'd prefer any boys I have to look like they're part of the crowd.
No-Tattoo: You know, 90% of the world's men don't have those things!
Guy: Guess what? I'm not them.
And so on...

 

[fairnymph]

"Looking like everyone else"/"looking like dad" is an even lamer justification of circumcision. If everyone cut a leg off "to look cool" would you do the same? If dad lost an eye in the war, do you gouge out the eye of his son too? Where do we draw the line?
In any case, people are made STRONGER by their differences. Conformity is HIGHLY overrated.
How about we let kids CHOOSE for THEMSELEVES how they want their bodies modified, if at all.
Can you imagine what trouble a parent would get into for trimming of his child's ear soon after birth? The ensuing uproar and legal consequences would be tremendous. Why is it so much more "acceptable" to cut off part of a child's GENITALS of all things?

 

[liquidocean]

I'm glad it was chosen for me. It was done at an age where i don't remember the pain. It would probably be more scarring if i had it done later in life, or had to do so of my own choosing. Thanks dad!
Besides, i love being cut, it looks awesome. I've seen a couple uncut penises, and they look gnarly. A cut dick looks like a dick should look like to me: like a mushroom, not some sort of mystery skin tube.
And i have never had any problems enjoying sex, so don't get all huffy about this as if it's about clitorectomy's. It's not really a big deal, ya bris-basher!
-----
Man's Circumcision May Cut Partner's Cancer Risk
April 10, 2002 05:19 PM ET
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A man who is circumcised appears to have less risk for contracting penile human papillomavirus (HPV) infections, which may lead to a reduced risk of cervical cancer for his female partner.
HPV can cause genital warts in men and women, and has been linked to cancers of the cervix, vulva, vagina, anus and penis, according to the study, which is published in the April 11th issue of The New England Journal of Medicine.
[ 12 April 2002: Message edited by: liquidocean ]

 

[BabbleFan]

What we really need is an experiment, so any intact volunteers want to go for the chop? Photos before and after please so we can make value judgements on your manhood

 

[shannabanana]

just for the record, I prefer un-circumcised...gives us girls something to hold on to!

 

[min]

<<If everyone cut a leg off "to look cool" would you do the same? If dad lost an eye in the war, do you gouge out the eye of his son too? Where do we draw the line?>>
I think we can all agree that this is too "apples and oranges". Losing an eye or a leg seriously impacts one's life. Circumcision (for men, anyway), for all its unpleasantness, is largely cosmetic.
Romantic sentiments about the beauty of being unique and nonconformist aside, people are *naturally* conformist. It's ingrained into human psychology--people want to belong, and the best way to belong is to make yourself like those who consider you their group. Going against the grain is usually unpleasant.
Almost everyone who considers themselves nonconformist really isn't--goths may be nonconformist compared to the "average" American, but they're still just conforming to other goths. There are probably a lot of Americans on this board who consider themselves nonconformist, but consider this:
--do you own or drive a car, like most Americans?
--do you value independence, capitalism, and democracy like most Americans?
--is English your first language, like most Americans?
--do you buy clothes that are fashionable for your demographic or subcultural group, like many Americans?
--do you watch shows that are popular with other Americans, and listen to music that is popular with Americans from your demographic?
--do you like sports, like many Americans?
--if you are a drug user, do you hang out with other drug users and follow their general conventions?
and so on...
As you can see, a person can be a conformist without ever knowing it, and even when they're actively trying to *not* be conformist.
[ 12 April 2002: Message edited by: min ]

 

[twiddlebug]

Originally posted by liquidocean:
A cut dick looks like a dick should look like to me
huh? surely it 'should' look how it well, does look, with no missing bits.
y'know, this is just bizarre, i had no idea most americans were circumcised, and i'm having some real problems understanding why on earth parents would choose to cut of a random bit of skin for no apparant reason.
bizarre.
you learn something new everyday.
(p.s i'm in the uk, i've never seen a cut penis in my life!)

 

[dr seuss]

scene - and adelaide hospital, approximately 18 years ago...
doctor - it's a lovely, lovely baby boy!
Crueldoctor - excellent! let's cut the end of its penile skin off.
seuss - not a fucking chance mate!!!!
^is all. i'm amazed like twiddles. i'm jewish, and my mother made the eminently sensible choice not to have me circumsised. thank god. i'm natural, i'm all me. all...

 

[Xplore]

I have to agree with everything fairnymph said on the subject. I too see no compelling reason for circumcision, and the reasons of look (or of conformity) are even lamer than any other reasons, hence providing further justification against circumcision, IMO.
Naturally, I’m INTACT. My family never even thought about circumcision – where I come from this is simply not part of the game (unless I guess there are some religious reasons and we have had none). Interestingly enough, most of my friends, including many Jewish friends, are also intact (we’ve discussed this), so circumcision is not as prevalent as one would think. I would also NOT want to subject my children to this, if at all possible.
On the question of the penile look – most penises look the same when erect. This is true for circumcised and uncircumcised penises, and even size/shape of the penis somewhat conforms to the “standard” look, also when erect. So saying: “penis looks good or bad when cut or intact” really means very little during sex – it’s simply not that noticeable. Having said that, I like the way my penis looks because and I would definitely select to remain intact. Ironically, after gym I usually have to take shower/change with other guys naked around me. I notice that my penis looks larger partly because of it being intact, which is kinda funny in that environment. So in this weird anecdotal way, I enjoy carrying extra “weight” around.

 

[mashead testing]

how many of you men are circumcised/uncircumcised? 4skin and pround!
why were you/were you not? dunno
do you wish it was the other way around? no
are you happy with ur penis's appearance? yes very thank you for asking
for the *intact* guys-- are you extra sensitive in bed (do u come quickly) no can take forever
are there any other positives/negatives to having ur penis cut/intact? it looks soooooooo much nicer intact

 

[stroppygob]

There are no medical reasons for circumcision -- the AMA (American Medical Association) and the AAP (American Association of Pediatrics) state that there are no health benefits for circumcised males.
Yes there are!! I was circumcised for medical reasons as a baby, restrictive and non-retracting foreskin. I was in great pain. Get your facts right.
Also, what woman in their right mind wants a cheesey knob end in their mouth? Smegma is for losers!!!

 

[Chameleon]

I'm just sorry to see that what could have been an interesting and informative post turned out to be offensive and largely misinformative.

 

[fizzygirl]

If people were cutting off a leg to be "cool", then a majority of people would indeed do it. Conformity is an overwhelming influence, whether we like to admit that or not. I'd just like to add that, in the USA, this was not really always seen as a "choice" by mothers. It was almost the default. People tended to do things on the recommendation of their doctors (obedience to authority--another important factor), and if the doctor was prone to feel this was best then that's what was done. Most would assume the doctor knew what was best. As time has went on, people have been encouraged more to ask questions and find out stuff for themselves on decision such as this, and you're starting to find more young men that have not had this done. It's a common tendency to attribute the actions of others more to the individual than to the situation around them. I think this is a lot of what happens in this argument.
Keep in mind too, that even though ya might not mean it that way, when you make the argument that the people that choose this for their children are being stupid, etc then you are--to some extent--insulting the parents of the people you are arguing with. No wonder tempers flare!
~fizzy (who doesn't plan on circumsizing her kids)

 

[circlecircus]

sorry to touch on a passed sub_topic of this but hygene is certainly an issue.
Even if you do shower and scrub twice daily, what about right after you go the toilet during the day?
No, you zip up and move along.
1. If you are circumcised any er..stray drop(s) that might come out after you shake and zip would simply be absobed by the underpants.
2. if you are uncircumcised then the drop(s) stay trapped. A moist dark environment under the foreskin at body temperature.
Doesnt sound too hygenic to me...
btw im sure this topic was covered a couple of months back..for the record, I was "intact" then chose to undergo the voluntary surgery at the age of 17. This was not a decision based on geographic locations since i dont live in America. Nor was it anything to do with outside pressures at all.
It was a well researched and informed decision and i could not have been happier with the final results.
oh and it might just be me, but i last longer in the sack as well. All Good.

 

[liquidocean]

^^ We're talking about something that is a cosmetic and hygenic option. This is not a barbaric mutilation like a clitorectomy. So those of you penis-less people responding to this, don't compare the two: they are apples and oranges. I am not suffering as a result from my circumcision. I am not living in a greyscale colorless sexual world as a result.
I even consider myself lucky to have had it done, and the overriding sentiment here is that not only are my parents cruel for having it done, but that i am some sort of victimized cripple because of it. I refuse to see it that way, and it's an issue that is not worthy of a moral crusade.
If i wanted to pick up the arms, i would start with clitorectomies in African tribes, 'disposable virgins' in HIV+ South Africa, bareback 'giftgiving' in the gay/circuit scene, and alcohol related date-rape in colleges.
Circumcision is not a big deal, and i'm not going to feel bad for having had it done to me.

 

[fairnymph]

i'm jewish, and my mother made the eminently sensible choice not to have me circumsised. thank god. i'm natural, i'm all me. all...
Um, will you marry me? Seriously? I'm jewish and I want to marry an intact Jew! Xplore, can I import your friends (wherever they are?)?

Besides, i love being cut, it looks awesome. I've seen a couple uncut penises, and they look gnarly.
This is completely due to social conditioning, however. Also, realize that as 85% of the world's males are intact, that means that your penis looks 'gnarly' to about 85% of the world's women -- who are used to seeing beautiful intact penises.

And i have never had any problems enjoying sex, so don't get all huffy about this as if it's about clitorectomy's. It's not really a big deal, ya bris-basher!Why is taboo to cut off part of a female's genitalia without consent but fine to cut off part of a male's? Talk about hypocrisy. There are different degrees of FGM (Female Genital Mutilation -- we should rename male circumcision MGM to be fair)and some of them are equivalent to male circumcision in severity. For example, cutting off some of the labia -- would you support this form of FGM? If so, why is it ok to cut off the labia but not the clitoris? And if it is not ok to excise the labia, why is it ok to excise the male equivalent, the foreskin? Again, where do you draw the line?

I was circumcised for medical reasons as a baby, restrictive and non-retracting foreskin.
The foreskin is not supposed to retract in infancy. Generally, the foreskin separates from the glans during childhood/adolescency. Thus this is not a 'medical' reason for circumcision. There are, in rare cases, medical concerns which necessitate circumcision -- but otherwise, there are better treatments for most foreskin-related conditions that arise.
RE: HIV/AIDS and circumcision (see here):

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC) has not endorsed the use of male circumcision to prevent HIV infection. Nicoll of the British Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre (BCDSC) says that the introduction of circumcision would lead to young men continuing their unsafe sex practices and would fail a cost-benefit analysis.6 The BCDSC is opposed to the use of male circumcision to reduce HIV infection.6
The Joint UN Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), with headquarters in Geneva, issued a statement on the use of circumcision to prevent HIV transmission/reception.7 This statement was issued at a time when available data showed a small protective effect. The UNAIDS said that the use of circumcision to prevent HIV infection was to be compared to playing Russian roulette with two bullets in the revolver rather than three.7 UNAIDS does not support the use of circumcision to prevent HIV infection because it would convey a false sense of security.7
HIV in America. The great majority of the male population in the United States is circumcised, more so than any other advanced industrialized (first world) nation. Laumann, et al., reported that 77 percent of U.S.-born men in the National Health and Social Life Survey were circumcised.8 Both Nicoll (1997)6 and Van Howe (1999)2 remarked that the United States has the highest rate of HIV infection amongst the advanced industrialized (first world) nations. Clearly, male circumcision has not been effective in protecting Americans from HIV infection.

The Rakai project in Uganda has studied the heterosexual transmission/reception of HIV. The Rakai project determined that studies of HIV infection and circumcision status are confounded by religion and cultural practices9 and that, when these are properly controlled, circumcision status is not a significant factor in preventing HIV transmission or reception amongst discordant couples.10 Separately, an Australian study found no relationship between circumcision status and HIV infection in men who have sex with men.
From The AMA Website:

Recent policy statements issued by professional societies representing Australian, Canadian, and American pediatricians do not recommend routine circumcision of male newborns. The most recent statement by the American Academy of Pediatrics reads as follows: "Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.

The British Medical Association has a longstanding recommendation that circumcision should be performed only for medical reasons. (i.e., in the case of a dsyfunctional foreskin, which is rare)

Virtually all current policy statements from specialty societies and medical organizations do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision, and support the provision of accurate and unbiased information to parents to inform their choice.

A majority of boys born in the United States still undergo nonritual circumcisions. This occurs in large measure because parental decision-making is based on social or cultural expectations, rather than medical concerns.63-67 Studies from the 1980s suggested that the presentation of medical information on the potential advantages and disadvantages of circumcision had little influence on parents' decisions.64-66 This finding was recently confirmed.In another contemporary study, nearly half of those physicians performing circumcisions did not discuss the potential medical risks and benefits of elective circumcision prior to delivery of the infant son. Deferral of discussion until after birth, combined with the fact that many parents' decisions about circumcision are preconceived, contribute to the high rate of elective circumcision.67,68 Major factors in parental decision-making are the father's circumcision status, opinions of family members and friends, a desire for conformity in their son's appearance, and the (false) belief that the circumcised penis is easier to care for with respect to local hygiene.
Conformity is INDEED a powerful force. Also -- sadly most Americans are not even fully aware of the possibility of leaving their sons intact.
Check out the following studies as well:
-Boyle GJ, Bensley GA. Adverse sexual and psychological effects of male infant circumcision. Psychological Reports 2001;88:1105-1106.
-Fleiss P, Hodges F, Van Howe RS. Immunological functions of the human prepuce. Sex Trans Inf 1998;74:364-367.
-Gray RH, Kiwanuka N, Quinn TC, et al. Male circumcision and HIV acquisition and transmission: cohort studies in Rakai, Uganda. Rakai Project Team. AIDS 2000;14(15):2371-81.
[ 15 April 2002: Message edited by: fairnymph ]