Cigarettes/nicotine as MAO-Is

[DooMMooD]

I know awhile ago I made a claim that cigarettes were fairly mild MAO-Is. Some people questioned it, others agreed but also didnt write any references, and some flat out denied it because I had no sources. Well here everyone goes, in case someone was curious or had no proof backing it up.

Nicotine, harman, and norharman all act as 'fairly' mild MAO-Is. (although I guess mild depends on your definitions. The one paper claims they are fairly strong, but relative to actual MAO-I drugs I would disagree.)

Firstly link is free, second isnt. I guess according to some of these claims, nicotine could in fact be considered a "nootropic", but since in my mind nootropics also have fairly low-no long term side effects, I'd just toss it under my OWN definition of regular drugs and not nootropics.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3151730/?tool=pmcentrez

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15582589

Figured this was fairly important for those combining cigarettes/nicotine with other substances, since MAO-Is no matter how weak/mild can have severe interaction. Dunno if this is already here somewhere, or if its not, but regardless, I feel this is a fairly important piece of information to know, since SO MANY combine cigarettes with other drugs, including ones where an MAO-I should NOT be ingested (MDMA anyone? I smoke a lot on E lol).

Enjoy the reads lol. Mods feel free to move/merge/do whatever you wish with this thread, but I still feel its fairly important to know.

 

[JackiesBabyy]

I know awhile ago I made a claim that cigarettes were fairly mild MAO-Is. Some people questioned it, others agreed but also didnt write any references, and some flat out denied it because I had no sources. Well here everyone goes, in case someone was curious or had no proof backing it up.

Nicotine, harman, and norharman all act as 'fairly' mild MAO-Is. (although I guess mild depends on your definitions. The one paper claims they are fairly strong, but relative to actual MAO-I drugs I would disagree.)

Firstly link is free, second isnt. I guess according to some of these claims, nicotine could in fact be considered a "nootropic", but since in my mind nootropics also have fairly low-no long term side effects, I'd just toss it under my OWN definition of regular drugs and not nootropics.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3151730/?tool=pmcentrez

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15582589

Figured this was fairly important for those combining cigarettes/nicotine with other substances, since MAO-Is no matter how weak/mild can have severe interaction. Dunno if this is already here somewhere, or if its not, but regardless, I feel this is a fairly important piece of information to know, since SO MANY combine cigarettes with other drugs, including ones where an MAO-I should NOT be ingested (MDMA anyone? I smoke a lot on E lol).

Enjoy the reads lol. Mods feel free to move/merge/do whatever you wish with this thread, but I still feel its fairly important to know.

When people say don't mix X with MAOIs, they mean irreversable, powerful MAOIs such as Nardil. Amphetamine itself is a weak MAOI.

 

[DooMMooD]

I think thats its unsafe to say that. Enough of even a weak MAO-I could have similar negative effects.

As a result I feel it important that people know this. Weak or not its still a not commonly known fact.

People attest to dangers of codeine/hydrocodone, despite those being relatively "weak" opiates. Why should those get ample warning but not this?

 

[JackiesBabyy]

I think thats its unsafe to say that. Enough of even a weak MAO-I could have similar negative effects.

As a result I feel it important that people know this. Weak or not its still a not commonly known fact.

People attest to dangers of codeine/hydrocodone, despite those being relatively "weak" opiates. Why should those get ample warning but not this?

Well, I take adderall every day, mostly normal doses, but sometimes high recreational doses. Adderall + nardil = hypertensive crisis. But, I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day and I never noticed anything bad coming from it.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Firstly link is free, second isnt. I guess according to some of these claims, nicotine could in fact be considered a "nootropic", but since in my mind nootropics also have fairly low-no long term side effects, I'd just toss it under my OWN definition of regular drugs and not nootropics.

Nicotine itself is quite safe in normal quantities. It is just smoking cigarettes that is unhealthy. Nicotine has no greater side effects than caffeine unless you take way too much.

I think thats its unsafe to say that. Enough of even a weak MAO-I could have similar negative effects.

As a result I feel it important that people know this. Weak or not its still a not commonly known fact.

People attest to dangers of codeine/hydrocodone, despite those being relatively "weak" opiates. Why should those get ample warning but not this?

Because nicotine is an extremely weak MAOI in relative terms. Smoking a few cigarettes is just not going to cause an MAOI interaction. However, taking a huge amount of liquid nicotine or tabacco tea etc could, but you would probably be more likely to die from nicotine overdose first. The severity of potential MAOI interactions also depends on whether a substance is a reversible MAOI. (For example, ayahuasca is a rMAOI so the drug interactions are not as severe as a pharmaceutical MAOI anti-depressant, although with it the contraindications should still be followed because even though it's unlikely to be lethal it could still be unsafe or very very unpleasant). I have no idea whether nicotine is a rMAOI by the way, just thought it was an interesting/relevant point.

The dangers of combining opioids with MAOIs come from how much you take and what your tolerance is. People who are, for example, on low-dose long-term methadone maintenance and do not get any effects from the methadone other than preventing WD symptoms can take MAOIs.

 

[DooMMooD]

You yourself though have said the dangers come from "how much you take and what your tolerance is". By that logic, everyone SHOULD be aware of this, because if they are nontolerant individuals who suddenly mix a crazy drug cocktail with a MAOI, even if its weak, that probably wont end well.

And nicotine itself is NOT safe. Nicotine is one of the most toxic substances studied. "Normal quantities" is such a relative term....a few MILLIGRAMS of nicotine can kill you, I would by no stretch of the imagination call that safe.

30-60MG can kill a human being.

The LD50 of nicotine is 50 mg/kg for rats and 3 mg/kg for mice. 30–60 mg (0.5–1.0 mg/kg) can be a lethal dosage for adult humans.Nicotine therefore has a high toxicity in comparison to many other alkaloids such as cocaine, which has an LD50 of 95.1 mg/kg

Sources:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/nicotine.htm#PartTitle:7.%20TOXICOLOGY

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0773.1994.tb00316.x/abstract;jsessionid=57662695B7DBD79C1C737E5988C03DB6.d02t04

Although this thread is not about the LD 50 of nicotine, I just felt it was important to point out that nicotine should in no way shape or form be considered "safe". I guess if you define "normal quantities" as 1mg then yes it can be safe, but if you eat 60 pieces of nicorette you are in for some trouble.

Queue scene from Thank You For Smoking where Eckhart has the nicotine patches all over his body. No bueno.

 

[qwe]

i don't think the question was whether it's easy to overdose on nicotine if you slap on way too many patches (though, despite its toxicity, has anybody died doing that?),

rather, the question was does nicotine cause physical changes (aka "damage") that could have negative effects down the road. as far as i have read, it is indeed about similar to caffeine, but more carcinogenic.

 

[Druidus]

Nicotine may be very toxic, but cigarettes are almost impossible to overdose on, as the nicotine is metabolized and removed from your system before toxic build up can occur. Pure nicotine is easy to overdose on, yes, but why you'd even court that kind of drug in such doses baffles me.

But the actions of nicotine as an MAOI are weak, extremely weak. Consider this: St. John's Wort contains an MAOI which is stronger than tobacco's. You can still take it at a therapeutic dose without being at real risk of incurring issues of strong drug/food interactions, however, except, for example, with some drugs which have some potential to cause serotonin syndrome. But unlike stronger MAOI's, there is much less risk. It's safely used and sold OTC. Many people take it and don't alter their habits at all. Tobacco, containing weaker MAOI's, should be considered to be even less likely to cause interaction issues.

St. John's Wort lasts a longer time than tobacco, and is metabolized through an oral route, leading to a stronger and longer lasting effect on the human nervous system. Tobacco is smoked, quickly metabolized, and terminated. It does not have a long lasting MAOI effect.

All the MAOI's in cigs will do is make you roll/trip a little harder on MDMA/psychedelics, and improve the feel of stimulants temporarily. They are metabolized very quickly, and are soon rendered ineffective on the brain. The temporary effect on MAO is extremely limited by severe brevity and the very minor potency of the MAOI's.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

You yourself though have said the dangers come from "how much you take and what your tolerance is". By that logic, everyone SHOULD be aware of this, because if they are nontolerant individuals who suddenly mix a crazy drug cocktail with a MAOI, even if its weak, that probably wont end well.

And nicotine itself is NOT safe. Nicotine is one of the most toxic substances studied. "Normal quantities" is such a relative term....a few MILLIGRAMS of nicotine can kill you, I would by no stretch of the imagination call that safe.

30-60MG can kill a human being.

I just felt it was important to point out that nicotine should in no way shape or form be considered "safe". I guess if you define "normal quantities" as 1mg then yes it can be safe, but if you eat 60 pieces of nicorette you are in for some trouble.

Perhaps I was not clear enough. Nicotine (like caffeine) is toxic at sufficiently high doses, but ordinary consumption poses few known health risks, even when it is used long-term. I never said it was not possible to overdose on nicotine. Nicotine itself is a relatively safe drug when taken in "normal" quantities, such as in a cigarette, a piece or 2 of nicotine gum, an e-cigarette, etc, or when taken over a period of time with these methods, using them as they are designed to be used. It is not known to cause any long-term damage. Yes you can overdose on it (you can overdose on anything) - but nicotine is only toxic if you take too much at one time.

Smoking while on drugs is simply not going to cause a serious MAOI interaction. If you eat 60 pieces of nicotine gum at once or cover your body in nicotine patches then you are going to have problems, but the problems do not come from an MAOI interaction, they come from a nicotine overdose. You would overdose on nicotine before you got a serious MAOI interaction. Some people do seem to get some side effects from smoking a lot while on certain drugs, such as opiates, like nausea - I'm not sure exactly what causes it, it might be linked to the MAOI activity, but it is self-limiting because if smoking is making a person nauseous they are not going to keep smoking more and more until they experience a more serious interaction (although I doubt one is even possible via smoking alone). The MAOI effects of tobacco are also very short-lived.

the question was does nicotine cause physical changes (aka "damage") that could have negative effects down the road. as far as i have read, it is indeed about similar to caffeine, but more carcinogenic.

Nicotine by itself is not regarded as a carcinogen and there has been no research/evidence to support that nicotine alone acts as a carcinogen in the formation of cancer in humans. Most people just assume it is unhealthy because of it's association with cigarette smoking.

 

[DooMMooD]

I know man, I didnt say you said that. I just wanted to clarify "normal doses". I bet most people dont even know the average amount of nicotine in a cigarette is 1mg, and to most people a "normal dose" of a substance is more than 1 MG was my point regarding that. And to mayhaps share that info: i think many are very unaware of the dangers of nicotine. I know some people who got nicorette trying to quit and would much that shit down SO FAST it was probably pushing the envelope

Also a point is: when you smoke on MDMA or LSD or on Opiates, do you not notice a SIGNIFICANT change in high? I did and do. SO there must be SOMETHING to cigarettes to cause them to increase the PERCEIVED EFFECTS (which is the only ones i care about heh) of drugs. I would be MUCH HIGHER when I smoked on opiates/mdma/lsd/etc, much much higher. If its strong enough to change my actual experience of the high its gotta be decently strong.

I would chain smoke when I was on roxis because it would get me quite a bit higher. Smoking a cig was always enough to push me into Puke/nodsville if I wasn't quite there yet. Idk just the fact that it can have an effect that is THAT noticeable says SOMETHING. Dunno what it is saying, but its saying something. Smoking on MDMA? forget about it, doesn't even compare to not. I guess the LSD I dont really remember that much its been awhile lol

And Swim you were 100% right about nicotine itself not being an MAOI i misread the part. Nor/Harman are though and possibly other chemicals in a cigarette but those were the 2 that were definitively proven.