Mental Health Cholinergic Balance Permanent Damage

[BrugmansiaFreak]

Hi, Bluelight.
So, first of all I apologize because I'm not a native english speaker and I don't understand too much about science.

Ok. I have a lot of experiences with deliriants, but I believe that something in my brain changed forever after my first experience. It was 1g of dimenhydrinate and it was a night of complete psychosis that I barely remember some flashes. I couldn't sleep and my hands was shaking a lot in next days. Well, for like 1 month or maybe more I felt strong ataxia and lack of balance, mainly walking (even had a fall), my memory had a strong decay, I had very difficulty to do things that I was good to do. Learn new things was hard for me too, and I lost a little bit of my concentration and general cognition.
I still feel all those things but much less strong now. The point is: all the drugs I've tried before the experience started to affect me differently. Weed is very strong even today, with HARD dry mouth. I can't tolerate uppers, no amps, no coke, nothing. Even a cup of coffee make me very nervous. I can't feel the euphoria that most people feel with uppers. In fact is a very dysphoric experience, I only feel anxious, nervous, paranoid as a fuck, hypersensitive (mainly the sounds). And my tolerance to anticholinergic drugs seems to decay, feeling effects in low doses. Things like DPH, orphenadrine, scopolamine, promethazine, they doesn't sedate or relax me, I feel the same dysphoria that I feel from stims.

Now. I know that we have a chemical balance between dopamine and the colinergic system. Drugs that boost dopamine indirectly make the muscarinic system decay, and makes sense because antimuscarinic psychosis are close to psychosis induced by uppers. Any thought?
Sorry and thank you all.

 

[snmfmy]

Diphenhydramine is an NMDA antagonist. I couldn't track down eight-chloro-theophylline but I really doubt that you have any damage to your muscarinic receptors considering that people recover from low level organophosphate poisoning just fine which are direct antagonists of cholinesterase and also affect the muscarinic receptors.

Chronic exposure to acetylcholinesterase inhibitors like organophosphorus insecticides leads to a significant long-term down regulation of M2 receptors, but I don't think that's your case.

I think you feel really shitty because you have had a major deliriant/ novel- Atypical stimulant psychotic episode.

You're glutamate system is probably still all fucked up and you feel out of sorts.

I would try and talk to a doctor and get prescribed some mild long-lasting benzodiazepines like Librium just to try and soften out your glutaminergic gabaergic systems.

Stay away from Xanax and that other short acting bullshit.

 

[BrugmansiaFreak]

@snmfmy sorry, where you read that DPH is an NMDA antagonist? Orphenadrine, an DPH derivative, have some NMDA antagonism action. The experience happened 10 years ago, and my brain still fucked up. I'm schizotypal and I have big problems with anxiety and insane insomnia. For now I'm on risperidone, biperiden, chlomipramine, zolpidem, melatonin, promethazine and sodium valproate (I had a few episodes of seizures).

Edit: I take some long action benzos sometimes, but I buy it without prescription. I avoid to take because I have some level of dependency.

 

[snmfmy]

@snmfmy sorry, where you read that DPH is an NMDA antagonist? Orphenadrine, an DPH derivative, have some NMDA antagonism action. The experience happened 10 years ago, and my brain still fucked up. I'm schizotypal and I have big problems with anxiety and insane insomnia. For now I'm on risperidone, biperiden, chlomipramine, zolpidem, melatonin, promethazine and sodium valproate (I had a few episodes of seizures).

Diphenhydramine inhibits NMDA-induced currents - New... : European Journal of Anaesthesiology | EJA

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

 

[snmfmy]

@snmfmy sorry, where you read that DPH is an NMDA antagonist? Orphenadrine, an DPH derivative, have some NMDA antagonism action. The experience happened 10 years ago, and my brain still fucked up. I'm schizotypal and I have big problems with anxiety and insane insomnia. For now I'm on risperidone, biperiden, chlomipramine, zolpidem, melatonin, promethazine and sodium valproate (I had a few episodes of seizures).

Were you diagnose schizoaffective before the episode you described in the opening post?

 

[snmfmy]

@snmfmy sorry, where you read that DPH is an NMDA antagonist? Orphenadrine, an DPH derivative, have some NMDA antagonism action. The experience happened 10 years ago, and my brain still fucked up. I'm schizotypal and I have big problems with anxiety and insane insomnia. For now I'm on risperidone, biperiden, chlomipramine, zolpidem, melatonin, promethazine and sodium valproate (I had a few episodes of seizures).

Edit: I take some long action benzos sometimes, but I buy it without prescription. I avoid to take because I have some level of dependency.

And no wonder you don't feel well. Your meds basically antagonize every single major and minor neurotransmitter system in the brain and body.

 

[BrugmansiaFreak]

Diphenhydramine inhibits NMDA-induced currents - New... : European Journal of Anaesthesiology | EJA

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

Interesting, thank you.

Were you diagnose schizoaffective before the episode you described in the opening post?

Schizotypal, not schizoaffective. In fact I started to show the symptoms before that episode, but the doctors only gave me the diagnose after. I know that it could contribute in something.

 

[snmfmy]

Schizotypal, not schizoaffective. In fact I started to show the symptoms before that episode, but the doctors only gave me the diagnose after. I know that it could contribute in something.

Yes definitely.

Unusual perceptual experiences are one of the nine pillars of schizotypal personality disorder.

What that means is a lot of the perceived negative perceptual experiences that you are stating you have from this episode. Have a non-trivial probability of being largely caused by your schizotypal disorder.

Do you understand that? Are you aware of that?

 

[BrugmansiaFreak]

Yes definitely.

Unusual perceptual experiences are one of the nine pillars of schizotypal personality disorder.

What that means is a lot of the perceived negative perceptual experiences that you are stating you have from this episode. Have a non-trivial probability of being largely caused by your schizotypal disorder.

Do you understand that? Are you aware of that?

Yeah, sure, I understand. But isn't only mental effects, motor coordination are notable too. I felt that something changed my brain in neurological levels. Definitely damaged beyond I can explain in words.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

Lasting effects that I have always perceived as neurologic damage is rather common with deliriants. No one has really laid out the mechanics behind that in detail but I am interested about it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Lasting effects that I have always perceived as neurologic damage is rather common with deliriants. No one has really laid out the mechanics behind that in detail but I am interested about it.

I think if you take an amount of any anticholinergic which is enough to produce cholinergic blockade, it becomes highly neurotoxic (and seizure producing, and toxic to your other organs, and potentially lethal). It could easily lead to permanent neurologic damage. I think there is a lack of science on this, though.

In OP's case, it may be impossible to truly know the extent of the damage; how much was a diagnoses he already had, and how much was from the drug.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Schizotypal, not schizoaffective. In fact I started to show the symptoms before that episode, but the doctors only gave me the diagnose after. I know that it could contribute in something.

it very easily could have been the trigger for your schizotypal symptoms, especially if this occurred when you were around age 20-30

if not for that incident, its likely some other event would have triggered it down the line

 

[BrugmansiaFreak]

Lasting effects that I have always perceived as neurologic damage is rather common with deliriants. No one has really laid out the mechanics behind that in detail but I am interested about it.

Yeah, let's see what happens

 

[BrugmansiaFreak]

it very easily could have been the trigger for your schizotypal symptoms, especially if this occurred when you were around age 20-30

if not for that incident, its likely some other event would have triggered it down the line

Well, I agree, I was going to develop the illness anyway but this experience (and others) doesn't helped, of course.
No, I start to search psychiatric treatment when I was 15 yo (I was anxious, hearing voices, becoming paranoid), and I was around 17 when the experience happened.

 

[BrugmansiaFreak]

As said above is hard to tell the extension of the damage. Anyone else have the same sensitivity and intolerance to stimulant drugs?
Oh, also, anyone feel that any anticholinergic (in deliriant subdosage) is uncomfortable like stims?

 

[negrogesic]

Diphenhydramine is an NMDA antagonist.

While it may have action on the NMDAR in the micromolar range, the statement of, "Diphenhydramine is an NMDA antagonist" without any qualifiers, is quite a leap.

Diphenhydramine is primarily an antihistamine and anticholinergic, and works in this capacity at nanomolar concentrations. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to get across by starting that post with a statement that highlights a comparatively minor action of diphenhydramine, but the way it is phrased is misleading and appears to lack any purpose/relevance.

 

[BrugmansiaFreak]

While it may have action on the NMDAR in the micromolar range, the statement of, "Diphenhydramine is an NMDA antagonist" without any qualifiers, is quite a leap.

Diphenhydramine is primarily an antihistamine and anticholinergic, and works in this capacity at nanomolar concentrations. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to get across by starting that post with a statement that highlights a comparatively minor action of diphenhydramine, but the way it is phrased is misleading and appears to lack any purpose/relevance.

DPH affect serotonin too, right? I don't remember how... Anyway, orphenadrine citrate (a derivative VERY close to DPH) have less antihistamine and antimuscarinic effects, is a true NMDA antagonist (comparable to memantine), and have some action on dopamine and noradrenalin.

 

[BrugmansiaFreak]

Oh, maybe relevant for you all, this situation was my FIRST experience with anticholinergics. It happened in 2014, along these 10 years I had a lot of experiences with tropane alkaloids (Brugmansia), and many other anticholinergics. I'm seriously, is impossible to count.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Oh, maybe relevant for you all, this situation was my FIRST experience with anticholinergics. It happened in 2014, along these 10 years I had a lot of experiences with tropane alkaloids (Brugmansia), and many other anticholinergics. I'm seriously, is impossible to count.

You've continued using them even after this experience with 1000mg of dimenhydrinate?

are you talking about recreationally or medically?

 

[snmfmy]

While it may have action on the NMDAR in the micromolar range, the statement of, "Diphenhydramine is an NMDA antagonist" without any qualifiers, is quite a leap.

Diphenhydramine is primarily an antihistamine and anticholinergic, and works in this capacity at nanomolar concentrations. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to get across by starting that post with a statement that highlights a comparatively minor action of diphenhydramine, but the way it is phrased is misleading and appears to lack any purpose/relevance.

Because he said the dose was over a gram and at that dose it has a significant antagonistic effect on NMDA receptors.

Perhaps you should have read the paper that I cited and linked to. Because it's not millimolar it's micromolar for half maximal inhibition.

Half-maximal inhibition occurred at 25 μM. It's in the paper that I cited and linked if you need a experimental reference.