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Can you eventually manage your DOC? Second guessing 12 step "talk"...

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viper16

Greenlighter
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
1
Hello all,

I want your thoughts and opinions on this subject matter please. I currently came back from rehab about a month ago, and currently have 82 days clean today from opiates and alcohol. I came into the rooms of AA/NA about a year and a half ago, and never could seem to quite "get it," as I was never able to hold a consecutive number of days sober together.

I am now in an outpatient rehab and go about twice a week, while also having a sponsor, sober sober support and going to 12 step meetings. The majority of the clients at my outpatient say that they do not go to meetings and do not have a sponsor, but were able to put together months and sometimes year(s) of sobriety without doing any 12 step work and/or sponsor and/or meetings.

In the rooms/program, you always hear "you can't do it alone," and those who are just going to meetings and not working a program with a sponsor, let's just say, they are in a way, frowned upon not working it the "correct" way to stay sober.

If the above were true, how is it possible for the clients in my outpatient to remain sober for consecutive months and years?

Please keep in mind, this is not the ACTUAL question I am asking here, I would just like to point out an example where the program says one thing, meanwhile there are situations proving the other.

Another frequent slogan used in the rooms is "once you are pickle, you can't turn back to being a cucumber" (or something like that), basically referencing the notion that once you have crossed the line into addiction where your life has become unmanageable, there is no way where you can actually go back to using safely, where your life or use is manageable again.

THIS is what I am questioning here. Let me put it this way, I definitely agree that addiction is bad, and there is no life that is actually happy in active addiction. I define active addiction as when you NEED something to get you through the day (dependency), paired with the obsession and compulsion of/for the substance.

We are human. Everybody needs a release every now and then whether it be through drinking, substances, shopping, relationships, food, etc. I am sure everyone can relate even those who have never been "addicted" to something.

Therefore, for some reason, I have been contemplating everything I just mentioned above, and am wondering, is it possible to manage the DOC again? This would come with some ground rules. For example:
  • limiting quantity to a certain number and not going above that
  • limiting to a certain time of the week (friday or saturday nights) where I don't have work the next day
  • never using at work
  • never carrying them around with me

My relapses in the past consisted of none of the above, which is why I am not sure if i am convinced if I had "done my research." My last relapse was on a Wednesday night where I picked up at 1230am, stayed up til 4am, and had to wake up at 7am. OF COURSE I wanted something again the next day, it would be the same thing if I had espresso at 1230am that kept me up til 4am, I would be miserable and need much coffee/energy drinks to get through work.

Does anyone have any experience with managing their DOC either post-addiction or post-rehab? Is there a way to actually do this as long as you have a plan in place and follow the plan?

In the rooms, I know you always hear the horror stories of relapse and etc. However, of course we don't know about the ones who went back "out" and are safely using and managing and what not, because obviously the program FROWNS upon using AT ALL, so of course we wouldn't hear of those stories of people effectively managing their use. Hence, my rant on this message board--- anyone out there?

PS- If anyone thinks I am crazy or if you think that this is just my "disease" talking, please feel free to call me out on that. On the other hand, if this makes sense to anyone, or if anyone can relate, ALSO please comment on that.

Thanks bluelighters- all comments and viewpoints are greatly appreciated.
 
I wouldn't try, if you got all the way to the point of rehab. In my experience with opiates (I was addicted for 10 years, with a few periods where I got clean for a bit including one time for 9 months), my attempt to convince myself I could manage it the next time was my addict brain convincing me to do them again. Without fail, every time I go back to opiates even once, it starts the cycle again except it spirals very quickly to where I left off. I realize I have no chance of ever controlling my opiate use so I have gladly decided to never take another opiate again. A brief pleasant experience is not in any way worth the incredible pain of being an addict. I realize that when I was addicted I was a crazy person, the decisions I made were nonsensical. That's the scary part of addiction, you can't always trust yourself, even afterwards.

I do generally have a poly-drug addiction, I like drugs and I use a wide variety of them. There were a few years where I was taking something, usually psychedelics, most days. I stopped using them for a while and started again and was able to manage my use, but being physically addicted to something is a different level, it changes your brain chemistry and basically rewires your brain, more and more the longer you're addicted. You become biologically predisposed to a lack of control with your use.

My advice is, do not do this. I don't know if you need to be totally sober, that's really up to the individual. If there are drugs you can use and not have a problem with, and they don't lead you to using drugs that are bad for you, then maybe it's okay for you to use those drugs. That's what I did, I went totally sober for a month after I quit opiates and then started using psychedelics and marijuana responsibly. I also use alcohol but I've never had an addiction problem with alcohol either.
 
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I also wanted to say, in reference to your comment that some people are able to quit without meetings/sponsors/etc... I did quit opiates successfully and I have never been to rehab or NA or anything... but I took an ibogaine flood dose so it's not like I didn't have help. I'm not sure I would have been able to do it otherwise, the ibogaine seemed to knock the addiction right out of me, I came out of it never having another craving again. Except I still sometimes have dreams where I start again, which is weird since I have absolutely no desire to while awake.
 
I would not attempt to use in moderation at this point in your life. It will not turn out well. I would remain focused on trying to heal from the addiction. I would not use anything for at least a full year and then only if you have made the changes necessary to heal and recover.

Occasional opiate use is not very pleasant. One of the reasons we remeber opiate use as making us feal good is because it made us feal better from the sickness it caused. Occasional opiate use feels crappy. Itchy, upset stomach, motion sickness like feeling. Chronic opiate use has the delusion of makeing us feal great, but really it allows us to feal ok instead of miserable. So it allows us to feal like an 7 instead of a 2. Considering you are probably rolling along at a 7 or 8 most days now, i think you would be pretty surprised to find you would not feal the way you think you would.

Alcohol is a very hard drug to control. It hampers the PFC. The PFC is the conscious area of the brain and is where will power, judgment, problem solving, and plans for positive results in the future.

Just a little check.. to see how your getting played by the addict in your head.. how much benefit and pleasure will you recieve from occasionally indulging in either of these activities? How much would it suck to return to go and have to travel the same path you have just put all the great effort and time into walking?
 
I think you're playing with fire.
I think you're trying to rationalize and come up with an excuse for using again.
I think if you start using according to your "rules", the rules will be out the window in less than a month.
To directly answer, I think it's possible and RARE for someone to control usage after being addicted before, but about as likely as getting hit by lightening twice the same day ( as in- not worth the risk of trying) and think of how far you've come just to throw yourself back into am tube addiction is just not worth it.

Yes, it's the addict talking. Don't do it.
 
Of course you can control it. If you desire getting high (which I don't) then you need to deny yourself everything including your own value and safety. Then you can use if you want to alter your consciousness.
 
Almost certainly not possible this soon after getting clean. When you've learned to be content and functional without drugs in your life, then maybe occasional (and occasional doesn't mean weekly) recreational use will work for you but there's a whole lot of stuff you need to learn and master way before that point.

Moderation seems to work best for people who have become largely indifferent to their drug of choice. If you haven't reached that point of indifference, then it's likely that "moderate" use will become regular use and that whatever hell you went through to get clean this time around will be much worse next time. Even in your OP, you're making justifications for using - you're talking like an addict.

You're never going to recapture the feeling you got when you first started using your DoC. Don't romanticise it. You went through rehab for a reason. There are moderation programmes out there but a pretty key part of them is not using your DoC to get buzzed. A lot of people who truly moderate their use realise that their DoC holds no appeal for then if they're not using it to get wasted and end up choosing abstinence over moderation because there's no "pay off" for them in moderate use.

Maybe you could do some reading on pharmacological and psychological extinction. I'm not suggesting that you should attempt to put anything into practise at this point, but there's a whole world of addiction medicine out there beyond AA and twelve step programmes and the disease model of addiction is not the only model which exists (in fact many psychologists don't support the disease model). Being better informed is never a bad thing.

Right now, though, you need to give your body a chance to regain its equilibrium. It could take a year or two before your thought processes and emotions become more like those of someone who has never abused substances. There's no hurry. The drugs will still be there in a year or two if you decide with a fully rational mind that you want to attempt moderation, but give yourself the best possible chance to get to that rational place first.
 
While in the past i've been able to somewhat regulate some substances, SOMEWHAT, my DOC I always had little to no self control over. It's really a slippery slope using, the cons outweigh any of the pros by a longshot. We find any and all ways to rationalize and justify. So be careful.
 
I'm sure we've all thought about this before, but, as you mentioned, the rooms and programs frown upon any usage so there is no real discussion about the topic.

My thoughts are almost identical to yours in regards to re-framing when and how I would use my DOC. I don't think that is rationalizing past results, but I also don't know how to completely mitigate negative effects of using my DOC. Hence, I think I would be alright mentally, physically, and it would be different in the addictive sense.

The bigger question to consider is what you could be foregoing in returning to your DOC. You may alienate yourself every weekend to simply use, you could hurt the ones who trusted in your sobriety, or you could simply wind up on the wrong side of the law again. The realities of these potential repurcussions should always be considered every single time you ever think that you are truly in control of your DOC. Even if you are actually controlling the usage of your DOC there is the inevitability that you are sacrificing a lot of unknown potential to, ultimately, chase a feeling.

I hope my insights help you work through these feelings, as I do not think you are crazy at all. This is exactly how I feel about my DOC and usage. I can convince myself that it won't be the way it was, but that doesn't mean it would be good at the same time. I know many addicts who have felt this sense of entitlement about their usage, and it usually occurs when their life is actually headed in the right path again. It isn't quite the definition of insanity, it isn't just your "disease", and this is why these can be particularly difficult feelings to work through.
 
This sounds like not actually being ready to give your all to quit using, i sense idealisation of substances and making up some desperate excuse to use again.
What you are doing is keeping that backdoor open.

IF you have the five circles of addiction under control (environmental, social, physical, pharmacology, psychiatric) there may be a slim change to use something every once i while, but i believe it is a major gamble, and stupid to do as a recovering addict.

My philosophy is NO means NO, whatever, however, whenever, whereever.
I have been saying to myself countless times in the past, i cant control it when i keep it alive, the only way to manage my addiction is to never use again.
My rational thinking is stronger then addiction, but when i would use again, addiction will take over without hesitation.

Accept that you don't use, it can suck sometimes, but remember your darkest hours when you were crying like a little baby for the horror to stop, and realise that's what you're asking for when you try to find an excuse to use again.

Could you look at yourself in the mirror knowing you want that back?
 
I know I coudn´t. But I surely get the point.
It has to be an internal no, real one or else it won´t work.
Have been there. A lot..
 
I think people could manage their DOC and not run into problems.. but I do not think its possible to use in this fashion and ever be satisfied or recieve much benefit. It also comes with great effort and much risk. Once we are addicted to a substance, useing it is misery, but we are fed a fantasy that is amazing.

EDIT: merged with SL duplicate thread.. BL does not allow duplicate threads posted in multiple forums. Thank you in advance for refraining from this in the future. If you would rather have this thread in SL then please contact any of the good people on recover or TDS staff.
 
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This is very important what someone mentioned above. environmental, social, physical, pharmacology, psychiatric stability. This is a systems perspective, but still can be individualized. Not perfection, but to have these happening in life with balance. I am getting back to this slowly but surely myself. Had a relapse after 8 years, had 30 days, relapsed, now 81 days today clean.

I've worked through 12 Step before in my 20's after rehab. They were helpful … and a bit brain washing, but do have some valid underlying points. Within that model they use, the 'disease' metaphor. So in answer to your question, it might just be that talking.. or denial happening. But you seem to be catching it as you asked the question which shows awareness.
I guess within 12 step context, and you have made some valid examples, with one in particular about the 'cucumber to pickle' analogy. To me this is when one crosses the line kinda from abusing drugs to FULL dependency.
If one needs to manage drug use there is unmanageability happening, or in another way, if one needs to control their use … something is out of control. What is it that is out of control that wants me to use? (for example).
These statements are rather black and white but do hold some validity

For me I know that I absolutely cannot control my drug use. Maybe I could drink as I don't even like alcohol, and have not been addicted to it, but why take that chance? It's better not to use anything, at least for me.
I thought I could maintain heroin use again and relapsed after 30 days. ha! Within 4 days all the mental/physical symptoms were manifesting, just like that. The body/brain system remembers, and there are studies proving this… especially within a few months it will take hold quickly.. even if one's tolerance is low again.

Some may make a go at it after partial remission, or full sustained remission after a year of being clean, but even then … chances are slim. For me, the question in itself is the answer. If I am questioning if I can use again, this tells me I can't. I have to remember this.
 
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I agree that we can´t control our condition. We can only try and keep remembering, keep questioning.
Every day, every hour if it comes to that.
The last withdraw is always the worst. And the last shot may also be the one.
We the 12 steps I learnt to avoid 24 hours and sometimes stick with the hour itself, keep yourself busy.
Come to BL, read, write. Being busy is the best therapy for me. Work is not enough.
Congrats for your 81 days clean!
 
ive been trying to get sober a couple years and every time ive gone back out ive said "it will be different this time" they all ended in me becominng an addict almost instant. to try to use responsibily is playing with fire. i go to meetings and dont believe everything they say but a lot im startin to realize is real shit. like they say in the meetings if you aint done, go get some more. its as simple as that. the choice is up to you. good luck with whatever choice you decide my friend
 
Erikmen said:
I agree that we can´t control our condition. We can only try and keep remembering, keep questioning.
Every day, every hour if it comes to that.
The last withdraw is always the worst. And the last shot may also be the one.
We the 12 steps I learnt to avoid 24 hours and sometimes stick with the hour itself, keep yourself busy.
Come to BL, read, write. Being busy is the best therapy for me. Work is not enough.
Congrats for your 81 days clean!
Click to expand...

So true, and it's dangerous to replace our doc with work. Been there and been miserable.
 
I tried this when I left my most recent rehab (was only there for 3 days), I convinced myself I could try to hold on to my job, and use in moderation, if I would have stayed in the rehab, it was a 6 month program, so I definitely would have lost my job if I stayed, once I left the rehab, I desperately tried to get a script for clonidine, xanax, or really anything that would control my heroin cravings in check, but found its almost impossible to get a script for these quickly.

I ended up copping dope the next day after I was out of the rehab, and really thought I could use here and there, and still maintain my life, but I was way wrong, Im back in the same spot as when I attempted suicide/ day I went into the rehab, using every single day now, spending every dime I get my hands on, for dope. I will spend what money I have on dope before I worry about buying food...dope ALWAYS come first!

I know a few people who manage to keep their addiction under control, but Ive learned I cannot do this, it gets the best of me all the time.

Now, Im trying to find some kind of job that I get money daily, like pizza delivery, just so I can still use and still have money to pay my bills, but knowing how addicted I am, its very possible, I will just end up buying more dope if I get a second job.

I wish there was a way for addicts like myself to manage this shit and maintain our lives, but its extremely tough and impossible for some people.
 
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