Can years of 1200+mg of 5htp effect long term serotonin

[blackstorm]

Hey,

Well..it has been a few years since I took 5htp - But when I was taking it, I was taking a lot, both because I was taking ecstasy and also just as a supplement.

I was normally taking 100mg pills, 4 at a time, maybe 3 times a day, sometimes more, sometimes less, but always daily.

That was the usual for at least a few years..

Could this have effected serotonin levels and receptors? Obviously the ecstasy would be a factor, and unfortunately I abused that a lot, to a very big degree.
I haven't taken either for years but something just doesn't feel right.

I have been put on anti-depressants but I am off them now.

 

[hatrix]

Why exactly are you asking ? It seemed like you were going somewhere with your post but never did.

Your doses of 5-HTP were unnecessarily large and IMO had no added benefit. Also, combining 5-HTP and MDMA at the same time can lead to serotonin syndrome, as the level of serotonin in your brain will be at toxic levels. Even just taking to much 5-HTP ALONE can lead to toxic levels and induce serotonin syndrome. Remember, it can be fatal. You don't want to experience it.

Regular 5-HTP should increase overall levels of serotonin active in the brain on a daily basis, but if you haven't taken it in years your levels should have gone back to their "normal" state, or close to it. This could lead to a feeling of depression after extended use daily 5-HTP. However, the brand of 5-HTP you take may or may not actually have benefit. I've read a lot of things that say certain 5-HTP supplements actually don't have any effect on serotonin levels and are wasted because of the source of the 5-HTP. Something to do with how it's metabolized, I can't remember exactly.

SSRIs however can permanently alter brain chemistry. How long were you on an anti depressant ? And what type was it ?

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

It probably did a number on your heart and brain, though nothing a decade of abstinence can't fix

brutal honesty, it hurts

 

[hatrix]

It probably did a number on your heart and brain, though nothing a decade of abstinence can't fix

brutal honesty, it hurts

Heart ? I'd like to see a source for that. I don't see how 5-HTP has any effect on the heart nor have I ever heard that before.

 

[lolwhatzdrugs]

Even just taking to much 5-HTP ALONE can lead to toxic levels and induce serotonin syndrome. Remember, it can be fatal. You don't want to experience it.

Has this been documented? I thought serotonin syndrome was caused by SRIs/MAOIs combinations. As far as I knew 5HTP is merely the biological precursor to serotonin and did not increase serotonin levels, but this was just my assumption.

 

[hatrix]

Has this been documented? I thought serotonin syndrome was caused by SRIs/MAOIs combinations. As far as I knew 5HTP is merely the biological precursor to serotonin and did not increase serotonin levels, but this was just my assumption.

After some research, I take back that comment. It seems as though 5-HTP ALONE cannot cause serotonin syndrome, due to its mechanism of action there's a limit of it's effect on 5-HT.

However, it seems well documented that when combined with other serotonogenic drugs, it can cause serotonin syndrome.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Has this been documented? I thought serotonin syndrome was caused by SRIs/MAOIs combinations. As far as I knew 5HTP is merely the biological precursor to serotonin and did not increase serotonin levels, but this was just my assumption.

In my opinion, no, there is no real documentation I am aware of to support the claim that 5-HTP alone can cause serotonin syndrome. I know of no case reports of this ever happening in humans. This is just a warning of a theoretical possibility put out because in tests on rodents they found that giving them massive doses of 5-HTP (like 100-200 mg/kg intravenously) induced serotonin syndrome. According to a review from 2005 there were no known cases (at that time) of anyone ever getting serotonin syndrome from 5-HTP, whether alone or even in combination with other drugs (although I think it's best to err on the side of caution about combining it with drugs that affect serotonin). There have been a number of studies where they gave people 5-HTP with strong SSRIs and none of the subjects got serotonin syndrome, but I can't access the full articles to see what kind of doses they were using. So I would conclude it's alarmist to say that 5-HTP alone can cause serotonin syndrome.

As you said, 5-HTP is a serotonin precursor. The amount your body can convert into serotonin should be limited by the amounts of the enzymes that convert it to serotonin.

[ETA: hatrix posted while I was writing this]

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As for the OP's question. I am not really sure. I have not yet seen anything to indicate that taking 5-HTP could alter one's serotonin receptors or the way the body makes serotonin (levels of enzymes and such) BUT because it is not a pharmaceutical there is not much research on things like that so I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Of course it's very possible that you may have restarted experiencing symptoms again that 5-HTP had been helping with, or perhaps that chronic MDMA use caused changes in your brain.

I do recall reading a couple papers that explained that chronically taking high doses of 5-HTP without any dopamine precursors might lower dopamine levels, but that was just while taking it.

1200+ mg per day is not actually an unusually high dosage. The dosage required and how it affects a person is extremely variable.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[hatrix]

Well I've never personally read about people taking dosages like that. It was usually at most 500mg. Whenever I take it the day after a serotonogenic stimulant, I only take 100mg.

What you quote about 5-HTP is interesting swimming dancer. I'm pretty sure though that I recall multiple threads or something regarding people reporting symptoms of serotonin syndrome when combining 5-HTP with drugs such as MDMA. Maybe not all are actual serotonin syndrome, but still reports of bad harsh negative side effects.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Well I've never personally read about people taking dosages like that. It was usually at most 500mg. Whenever I take it the day after a serotonogenic stimulant, I only take 100mg.

Yeah me too, I normally take just 200-400mg (200mg if after a serotonergic drug) and I don't take it at the same time as something serotonergic or an MAOI . But a doctor advised me to take more than that and "just keep increasing it til you see benefit" (I just haven't bothered and don't take it on a regular basis anymore - maybe I should, lol) and I've heard of doctors telling people to take like 3000mg (note this is not in combination with other serotonergic drugs), so I just meant that 1200mg/day is not some unheard of or insanely high dose.

I'm pretty sure though that I recall multiple threads or something regarding people reporting symptoms of serotonin syndrome when combining 5-HTP with drugs such as MDMA. Maybe not all are actual serotonin syndrome, but still reports of bad harsh negative side effects.

Yeah, that's why I said to err on the side of caution and not combine it with serotonergic drugs (unless a doctor advises you to - it is prescribed with SSRIs sometimes). Was just pointing out that, at least at the time of that review, there were no published case reports of 5-HTP causing serotonin syndrome at all (I haven't been able to find any either). It's also worth noting that an estimated 70% of cases of serotonin syndrome require no medical treatment and resolve upon cessation of the drug(s) that caused it. In reality that percentage is probably even higher if you include very mild cases of serotonin syndrome, since serotonin syndrome is a spectrum ranging from extremely mild to potentially life-threatening. So people could get mild serotonin syndrome and it's not published as a case report because they didn't seek any treatment.

However one paper estimated that from the studies done on 5-HTP that the likelihood of getting serotonin syndrome from it was 0%-0.34% (by some weird scientific formula).

Ok this is not ADD and is not even the topic the OP asked about so I will shut up now. I just know a lot about 5-HTP because I do an excessive amount of research on anything I take and I feel it's an often wrongly maligned supplement on Bluelight, usually by people who have never even taken it or done any real research (*I'm not including you in that group!)

---

It probably did a number on your heart and brain, though nothing a decade of abstinence can't fix

brutal honesty, it hurts

^I too would like evidence for this claim.

 

[hatrix]

I too like to read as much info as I can on things I take. I definitely don't take 5-HTP often either, really randomly if I think about it the day after a serotonogenic stim. Never before or during.

I really haven't however had any noticeable benefits from it. Could be my dosage, could be what I read about it not being able to pass to the brain as usable 5-HT and staying in the blood. I still think more research needs to be done on it.

Sorry to be off topic.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

^My off-topic posts are way longer than your's lol. 5-HTP can definitely cross the blood brain barrier, I think what you are thinking of is that some people claim it is converted into serotonin before it can reach the brain and since serotonin can't cross the BBB (which is true) it is not able to act on the CNS. This is not true, some 5-HTP is converted to serotonin in the periphery (before reaching the brain), and some is converted in the brain [source].

Anyway, hopefully the OP doesn't mind our discussion and can get some benefit out of this info. I will try to do some more research on their specific question tomorrow.

 

[pasha]

Heart ? I'd like to see a source for that. I don't see how 5-HTP has any effect on the heart nor have I ever heard that before.

There are quite a few threads in the Advanced Drug Discussion in regards to cardiac toxicity caused by 5-htp. It's actually contraindicated in patients with heart disease. Here's a few studies to confirm cardiac toxicity/fibrosis induced by 5-ht:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15781732
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12466135

 

[hatrix]

Ah, good to know. Thanks for the source. This was well over a year ago possibly 2 people were saying this anyways. Also something silly about the 5-HTP coming from cows, same with melatonin.

There are quite a few threads in the Advanced Drug Discussion in regards to cardiac toxicity caused by 5-htp. It's actually contraindicated in patients with heart disease. Here's a few studies to confirm cardiac toxicity/fibrosis induced by 5-ht:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15781732
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12466135

Neither of those articles state 5-HTP as a used substance under the substances tab. Obviously 5-HT is stated, but 5-HTPs specific mechanism of action has limits on 5-HT production. Those symptoms in the articles sound like acute toxicity from excess serotonin levels, and not induced from use of 5-HTP.

 

[pasha]

There's certainly some truth to that, not cows specifically but milk. Milk actually does contain tryptophan and melatonin. The amount of melatonin and tryptophan in a glass of milk is minute though.

This is why anecdotally they say a glass of warm milk can help put you to sleep. There's actually some studies I read sometime ago regarding the efficacy of milk in sleep disorders, but I don't exactly recall the conclusion.

 

[hatrix]

Well the information I read said that because the melatonin was from cows, it was useless to take for use in humans. This is regarding certain pill brands.

Way off topic. Let's try to get back on topic lol.

 

[pasha]

Well the information I read said that because the melatonin was from cows

This misinformation is simply not true. Apologies for derailing OP.

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Neither of those articles state 5-HTP as a used substance under the substances tab. Obviously 5-HT is stated, but 5-HTPs specific mechanism of action has limits on 5-HT production. Those symptoms in the articles sound like acute toxicity from excess serotonin levels, and not induced from use of 5-HTP.

I'm sorry but that's very inaccurate from a pharmacological standpoint. 5-htp is a precursor of 5-ht which is converted through decarboxylation. In essence, they're the same thing, the only difference is that 5-ht does not cross the blood-brain-barrier and its effects are mostly peripheral. To conclude again - 5-htp is a precursor to serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine 5-HT).

 

[hatrix]

I'm sorry but that's very inaccurate from a pharmacological standpoint. 5-htp is a precursor of 5-ht which is converted through decarboxylation. In essence, they're the same thing, the only difference is that 5-ht does not cross the blood-brain-barrier and its effects are mostly peripheral. To conclude again - 5-htp is a precursor to serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine 5-HT).

I know it's a precursor, but that doesn't mean those rats were given 5-HTP to increase levels of 5-HT. It doesn't say that anywhere, in fact it says "serotonin" under substances.

 

[pasha]

^ Those studies where ripped straight from the cardiac fibrosis due to 5-htp usage wikipedia page, I appreciate your thoughts, but your logic is flawed. If you take 5-htp, it will be converted into 5-ht (serotonin), the result is the same, I'm not sure how to put it in simpler terms so I don't see the point in a debate.

This gentleman from the Advanced Drug Discussion may be able to put it in comprehensible terms:

As I have understood the mechanisms of this toxicity high levels of serotonin will activate, at least hypothetically, cardiac 5-HT2b-receptors which regulate cellular growth in ventricular parts of the heart with weakened muscular tissues and possibly over time heart-attack (or what similar condition actually takes place in bad case scenarios). When adding 5-HTP to the body it pretty quickly gets synthesized to 5-HT in the CNS and the liver, and when taken in large amounts 5-HTP cause large amounts of 5-HT to circulate in the body if there is vitamin B6 and the required decarboxylase enzymes available for the synthesis in the liver which then releases 5-HT into the circulatory system, 5-HTP can cross the BBB but 5-HT cannot.

High, or raised over lengths of time, levels of 5-HT in blood can cause negative effects, such as cardiac fibrosis from 5-HT2b-activity, but this could be counteracted by peripheral inhibition of decarboxylase making 5-HTP go to where one probably wants it, the CNS/brain, and when turned into 5-HT in there it's locked in by its own properties in relation to BBB. I'm not sure at all, but my memory says carbidopa is such an inhibitor, thus useful for lowering risk of 5-HTP-related toxicity.

SSRI's are also proven to be cardiotoxic in high dosages, and also prolonging QT intervals. These dosages were acceptable up until relatively recent times, hence the cap on SSRI dosages as of late.

I respect your view but I'm with HCM on this.

 

[blackstorm]

Why exactly are you asking ? It seemed like you were going somewhere with your post but never did.

I just wanted to know if it can have a long term adverse effect at the level I was taking it.

SSRIs however can permanently alter brain chemistry. How long were you on an anti depressant ? And what type was it ?

I don't remember quite a few, I have been on a lot, SSRIs and SNRIs mainly.
The last was effexor, 225mg (Or is it 275mg..) - I haven't taken any in a while.

I wasn't taking any anti-depressants when I was taking the 5htp.

I also didn't take the 5htp at the same time as ecstasy, but I did take some before and after.

Of course it's very possible that you may have restarted experiencing symptoms again that 5-HTP had been helping with, or perhaps that chronic MDMA use caused changes in your brain.

I really was taking a huge amount of ecstasy, I didn't know how harmful the amount I was taking was until I found bluelight (7 years ago..wow, didn't know it was so long!)

Ok this is not ADD and is not even the topic the OP asked about so I will shut up now. I just know a lot about 5-HTP because I do an excessive amount of research on anything I take and I feel it's an often wrongly maligned supplement on Bluelight, usually by people who have never even taken it or done any real research

Anyway, hopefully the OP doesn't mind our discussion and can get some benefit out of this info. I will try to do some more research on their specific question tomorrow.

I actually really like to learn a lot more about things I am taking, or have taken, so thanks for the info

High, or raised over lengths of time, levels of 5-HT in blood can cause negative effects, such as cardiac fibrosis from 5-HT2b-activity, but this could be counteracted by peripheral inhibition of decarboxylase making 5-HTP go to where one probably wants it, the CNS/brain, and when turned into 5-HT in there it's locked in by its own properties in relation to BBB. I'm not sure at all, but my memory says carbidopa is such an inhibitor, thus useful for lowering risk of 5-HTP-related toxicity.

Good information.
Maybe a search in ADD would be a good idea, or even having this thread there.

Thanks very much for all the replies

 

[Jktm]

Any continuous stimulation of a certain receptor is going to lead to downregulation and desensitization to the neurotransmittor. It's the reason people that binged meth for 10 years straight are never happy. They "blew out (so to speak)" their dopamine receptors. Over time they will recover, but we're talking years.