(answered) can we talk about the new hr policies for OD

[cj]

I have been thinking about this for awhile after i saw a longtime member and former moderator thread get shut down. This person was asking how to effectively break thru her methadone dose. Now in fairness the op was upset and acting a little wierd. I pmed the mod in question who got pissy and told me to basically fuck off. Fine whatever. But then i see thteads about abusing fent patches are not allowed now because its dangerous. Well isnt the point of harm reduction to make dangerous substances as safe as possible? I dont feel that withholding information will stop the person from using the fent it just means they will have no idea how to use it. Ignorance os deadly when it comes to drugs i think these policies need to be changed.

 

[BK Bonkey Kong]

At one point in time, mods were specifically instructed not to shut down such threads. At some point, the term "HR" began to have a much more restricted meaning. HR is not just telling people to use drugs responsibly (responsibility as defined by the moderator) and then ostracizing them from the community if they do not. HR is pointing out irresponsible practices but still giving sound advice. HR is not telling people to not abuse their fentanyl patches and closing their threads. It is telling them that it is extremely dangerous but still letting them share advice on how to not kill themselves if they are to do it.

 

[shreddedlettuce]

CJ are you talking about this thread

 

[tricomb]

At one point in time, mods were specifically instructed not to shut down such threads. At some point, the term "HR" began to have a much more restricted meaning. HR is not just telling people to use drugs responsibly (responsibility as defined by the moderator) and then ostracizing them from the community if they do not. HR is pointing out irresponsible practices but still giving sound advice. HR is not telling people to not abuse their fentanyl patches and closing their threads. It is telling them that it is extremely dangerous but still letting them share advice on how to not kill themselves if they are to do it.

So much easier said than done. How do you give HR to someone who's trying to inject a patch? Honestly, I wanna hear you out. Sometimes IMO, there simply are NO safe ways of doing things! I mean fentanyl has taken more loved ones from me than I would care to share or think about but how do you even give advice on how to safely inject fentanyl from a patch? in my opnion, YOU CANT. I don't close these threads, I tell them the same things I just said now, even if they could somehow think they were measuring out a 100mcg start-out dose, how do you know for sure they have access to a MICROGRAM scale?! I bet more than half the people on here doing fentanyl via patch extraction cannot afford such a life saving device, and one that is not without flaws or perfect accuracy. The difference between 100mcg and 200mcg is huge, the difference between 100mcg and 1000mcg is fatal. There are just some drugs that should not be abused IMO, I'm not going to withhold any HR information on this basis of my opinion and personal bias from it taking my friends and family from me too soon, but I really would like to know how you guys would handle the fentanyl threads, and if you guys have any idea where we are coming from when it seems like we are being anti-fentanyl when that's not the case. OD is an HR focus forum and sometimes HR means telling people that NO, THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOUR TRYING TO DO!!!! Just like I would tell anyone who posts about "how to beat opana ER / oxycontin time release for IV use?" I just answer the thread with " right now, those formulations are widely accepted as being unbeatable. Please for your own sake move on or if you must, find a cleaner DOC.

 

[cj]

CJ are you talking about this thread

No it wasnt my thread. Ill pm you the thread i am reffering too though honrlestly i would ratjer talk about the policy as a whole instead of that individual example as i dont know the op personally. Dont wanna drag her into anything.

So much easier said than done. How do you give HR to someone who's trying to inject a patch? Honestly, I wanna hear you out. Sometimes IMO, there simply are NO safe ways of doing things! I mean fentanyl has taken more loved ones from me than I would care to share or think about but how do you even give advice on how to safely inject fentanyl from a patch? in my opnion, YOU CANT. I don't close these threads, I tell them the same things I just said now, even if they could somehow think they were measuring out a 100mcg start-out dose, how do you know for sure they have access to a MICROGRAM scale?! I bet more than half the people on here doing fentanyl via patch extraction cannot afford such a life saving device, and one that is not without flaws or perfect accuracy. The difference between 100mcg and 200mcg is huge, the difference between 100mcg and 1000mcg is fatal. There are just some drugs that should not be abused IMO, I'm not going to withhold any HR information on this basis of my opinion and personal bias from it taking my friends and family from me too soon, but I really would like to know how you guys would handle the fentanyl threads, and if you guys have any idea where we are coming from when it seems like we are being anti-fentanyl when that's not the case. OD is an HR focus forum and sometimes HR means telling people that NO, THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOUR TRYING TO DO!!!! Just like I would tell anyone who posts about "how to beat opana ER / oxycontin time release for IV use?" I just answer the thread with " right now, those formulations are widely accepted as being unbeatable. Please for your own sake move on or if you must, find a cleaner DOC.

The problem is most addicts will not take no for answer. I think its perfectly fine to post exactly what you said in right there in there thread. But then let other members who have shot opana or the fent patches chime in and say " this is dangerous but the safest way". I know yalls heart is in the right place with your policy but i dont think its realistic. Im going to give an example of imperfect hr because hr as a philosophy is imperfect. Bleaching needles for re use is risky there is no way of knowing if you killed the hiv or hep c virus in the rig. But ot is widely practiced hr to show addicts how to do it as efficently and safely as possible. Using fent or trying to break thru a blocking dose of methadone is no differant.


I didnt want to start an argument or be a dick by starting this thread. I am hopeing as a community we can come up with policys thay protect bluelight and help people.

Fuck i hate posting from my phone. It wont let me fix the quote. Sorry.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

We did come up with this policy as a community... we didn't just one day throw it out there. We talked about it as staff, we talked about it with members, with each other. There is actually overwhelming support for the new HR policy. We get people constantly showing their appreciation for the changes. I'm sorry you don't understand the big picture enough to approve but, you don't have to. If the majority of OD didn't like the new direction, we wouldn't have done it. The fact is that they do.

 

[BK Bonkey Kong]

So much easier said than done. How do you give HR to someone who's trying to inject a patch? Honestly, I wanna hear you out. Sometimes IMO, there simply are NO safe ways of doing things! I mean fentanyl has taken more loved ones from me than I would care to share or think about but how do you even give advice on how to safely inject fentanyl from a patch? in my opnion, YOU CANT. I don't close these threads, I tell them the same things I just said now, even if they could somehow think they were measuring out a 100mcg start-out dose, how do you know for sure they have access to a MICROGRAM scale?! I bet more than half the people on here doing fentanyl via patch extraction cannot afford such a life saving device, and one that is not without flaws or perfect accuracy. The difference between 100mcg and 200mcg is huge, the difference between 100mcg and 1000mcg is fatal. There are just some drugs that should not be abused IMO, I'm not going to withhold any HR information on this basis of my opinion and personal bias from it taking my friends and family from me too soon, but I really would like to know how you guys would handle the fentanyl threads, and if you guys have any idea where we are coming from when it seems like we are being anti-fentanyl when that's not the case. OD is an HR focus forum and sometimes HR means telling people that NO, THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOUR TRYING TO DO!!!!

You can tell them that there is no safe way to do what they are trying to do but then leave the thread open. If they are determined to try to abuse the patch, the only remaining service you can provide to them is to try to prevent them from smoking or IVing the gel, and if you explain it logically that they are much more likely to die from smoking the gel than they are from a carefully titrated dose taken orally (or sublingual/ buccal even). It is still risky, no doubt, and you should of course point that out. It's still a lot better than essentially saying "We don't discuss this here-- If you want to try it, you're on your own."

We did come up with this policy as a community... we didn't just one day throw it out there. We talked about it as staff, we talked about it with members, with each other. There is actually overwhelming support for the new HR policy. We get people constantly showing their appreciation for the changes. I'm sorry you don't understand the big picture enough to approve but, you don't have to. If the majority of OD didn't like the new direction, we wouldn't have done it. The fact is that they do.

A lot of people's gut reaction is that these types of threads should be shut down. Mine was as well, until a former admin and I spoke in depth about the topic and he explained the wisdom he had acquired over years of seeing this type of thing. What everyone must remember is that by excluding drug users who are exhibiting reckless behavior, we miss out on the most prime opportunities for HR. The people who need us most are the ones posting the threads that are closed down as being too risky. I understand that you all never want to empower someone to do something risky that may end up in them harming themselves, but you must remember not to ever cut contact with the person. As long as you have them talking to you, you have the ability to influence their reckless thought processes. By excluding them, you have lost that ability.

I have nothing but respect for all of you. Keep up the good work, but remember to not exclude the most at-risk members that venture into our forum.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

A lot of people's gut reaction is that these types of threads should be shut down. Mine was as well, until a former admin and I spoke in depth about the topic and he explained the wisdom he had acquired over years of seeing this type of thing. What everyone must remember is that by excluding drug users who are exhibiting reckless behavior, we miss out on the most prime opportunities for HR. The people who need us most are the ones posting the threads that are closed down as being too risky. I understand that you all never want to empower someone to do something risky that may end up in them harming themselves, but you must remember not to ever cut contact with the person. As long as you have them talking to you, you have the ability to influence their reckless thought processes. By excluding them, you have lost that ability.

I have nothing but respect for all of you. Keep up the good work, but remember to not exclude the most at-risk members that venture into our forum.

The fact you think you've thought about this more than we have in the months of us deliberating/continued deliberation and speaking with members, is honestly kind of offensive.

Keep in mind there are many guests who view this site who aren't even members, many of which are incredibly new to drug use and take a lot of stock in what they read about members doing. Look at the OD home page.... how many threads do you see closed...? Not many. We do not "exclude" high risk members. They are the reason we came up with the policy.

There is a difference between regular drug use, and over the top, clearly dangerous, no if's and's or but's about it, behavior. By letting threads like that stand, we are sending a negative message to all the viewers who are taking that kind of uninformed reckless drug use as okay.

The closure of a thread is in essence a message in itself of HR.. When guests and new to drug use members see that and our explanation for closing discussion of incredibly dangerous drug use practices, we are clearing up the message of whether that is normal drug use or out and out dangerous irresponsibility.

And we do not cut contact with anybody. What you don't see is everything that happens after a thread is closed. PM'ing the member and continuing personal dialogue with them is a common occurrence. We explain to them the same thing.. that we have to consider how every thread and topic is going to influence the other people who are reading it. Our job isn't to cater to the OP.. it's to make sure we're sending the right message as a whole, especially to new and susceptible users.

Do we make mistakes sometimes in closing threads? Sure. OD is the largest sub forum on the largest drug site on the net... we deal with hundreds of threads a week. If we do make a mistake and a member makes a good point as to why their thread shouldn't be closed because we get very busy in having to try and divide our time equally for every thread, we reopen it.

Try and understand that you're seeing a very small fraction of the picture. We see the whole thing and know things you do not being a regular member. Our decisions are never in haste. If we weren't positive after much much deliberation that this was the right course of action for OD and BL as a whole, and the message we and our members want sent, we wouldn't have done it.

 

[sekio]

You can tell them that there is no safe way to do what they are trying to do but then leave the thread open.

What benefit is there to be gained from leaving threads open like that?

Here are two scenarios:
1. Bob gets some OPs or something, is advised that they are unsafe to inject. Thread is closed, he searches the boards and finds that they are generally regarded as invincible and unsuited for IV usage. He attempts to break the time release unsuccessfully anyway, ending up with undissolvable gummy chunks of pills, and ends up eating them because they are physically uninjectable.

2. Ben gets some OPs, is advised they are unsafe to inject. Thread stays open. Someone else chimes in that you can do it anyway by [elaborate and unsafe method]. He proceeds to hammer, mill, burn, and otherwise torture his pills until they form a "solution". Then Ben injects burnt pill sludge using a cigarette butt as a filter and gets an abscess.

In which case has harm been reduced? My opinion is, we are not here to help people push boundaries. We are here to encourage responsible and safe use of drugs. And letting people know of dangerous ways to do things - is not encouraging responsibility.

 

[_a_A_C_c_]

let's use this example, replacing injecting fentanyl with driving drunk: i just bought a shiny new car and i found a bottle of everclear (high proof alcohol, i think it is 98% ABV) in the trunk. i want to drink the everclear and drive an hour back to house. i post on a message board asking "what is the safest way to drink alcohol while driving my car?"

there is no safe, HR answer to my question other than telling me to not drink everclear and drive. the thread should be closed with a message saying something like "drive home. THEN mix a little everclear with something non-alcoholic. there is absolutely no safe way to drink everclear and drive".

the thread could be left open with people offering opinions of dubious quality. say i decide that by taking a cold shower, downing a cup of coffee and sucking on some pennies, i can safely drink everclear and drive home because people mentioned as much in my thread. sure, i was given advice on how to drive drunk but no one should suggest that advice benefited me or provided any sort of HR value.

 

[BK Bonkey Kong]

The fact you think you've thought about this more than we have in the months of us deliberating/continued deliberation and speaking with members, is honestly kind of offensive.

Try and understand that you're seeing a very small fraction of the picture. We see the whole thing and know things you do not being a regular member. Our decisions are never in haste. If we weren't positive after much much deliberation that this was the right course of action for OD and BL as a whole, and the message we and our members want sent, we wouldn't have done it.

I did mod OD in the past, and that is why I had to make a stop in this thread. I pop my head in OD every so often nowadays and when you say that members are not excluded when they post on topics like fentanyl, I think that is being untruthful. Threads about IV use of impure street drugs deal with very risky behavior but see how well it goes when you let people talk about the practice? The risk gets thoroughly analyzed and the least risky way of going about it becomes well-known. The same is true for fentanyl, but no one around here would know it because that discussion is forbidden. What about the example crimsonjunk brought up? Breaking through methadone doses? People in methadone circles know that the dose can be broken through. Forbidding discussion on the topic would not prevent them from trying to break through the dose, as they know it can be done. It would just encourage them to try it with less available information.

sekio, those aren't the only two scenarios. The mentality of the forum follows the mods and if the mods are preaching responsibility, so will the other members of the forum. They will jump down the throat of anyone not mentioning the risks as they should if that is what the mods do. If you just trust the community to not give terrible advice then you will see that your scenarios flip, and that Ben becomes more likely to do the risky extraction if his thread here is shut down and then he finds the unsafe method on another site. You have to beware of over-managing the forum. I understand why you would want to preempt any bad advice as there is a huge responsibility in modding OD, and it can feel like the weight of the responsibility is all on the mods' shoulders, but in reality, the better solution is to let the conversation flow and encourage the community to give responsible warning of harm on all topics, be it breaking through a methadone dose, IVing fentanyl, or IVing heroin.

Anyway, take it for what you will. I don't get the impression that I am going to change anyone's mind with this post, but there it is.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

Like I said, go to the OD homepage and tell me how many threads are closed...? You're talking about a few random occurrences and trying to use those specific situations to make an entire judgement about the policy..

We don't close threads simply because of a topic. There are no specific outlawed topics.. IV fent talk is not "disallowed".. if you'll search, you'll see there are many of those threads open.. same for breaking through methadone blockades. The thread Crimson is talking about was closed because good information was being given out, the OP was being told how dangerous it was mixing three CNS depressants to break through a blockade, and saying things like "she didn't care if something bad happened to her." "I don't give a shit, I'm going to do it anyway, blah, blah blah." It was the OP's reactions and choice not to listen to any of the advice being given out that caused that to be closed, because like I said, there are OTHER people who are viewing these threads, very impressionable people, and that kind of lackluster and careless attitude about something everyone in the thread admitted was a horrible idea, is not a message we want to send.

I'll say it again. There is a reason why every thread is closed.. whether you see it or not. You're using examples from specific situations you weren't even privy to and trying to now say the whole policy is flawed? Again, look at the OD home page. Do you see a rash of closed threads? No you don't.

 

[BK Bonkey Kong]

I'll say it again. There is a reason why every thread is closed.. whether you see it or not. You're using examples from specific situations you weren't even privy to and trying to now say the whole policy is flawed? Again, look at the OD home page. Do you see a rash of closed threads? No you don't.

I have not ventured into the forum much in the past weeks because I just got over a drug binge I had a few weeks ago and I can't be doing that anymore. I trust you if you're saying that things have improved from what I was seeing a few months ago, and that's great to hear. Not having a ton of closed threads on the front page is fantastic. I definitely saw fentanyl threads being shut down at one point not too long ago and when I saw this thread, I assumed it must still be going on. If it is not then I apologize. It is a topic that has come up multiple times and I just thought I'd share my observations from over the years.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

I have not ventured into the forum much in the past weeks because I just got over a drug binge I had a few weeks ago and I can't be doing that anymore. I trust you if you're saying that things have improved from what I was seeing a few months ago, and that's great to hear. Not having a ton of closed threads on the front page is fantastic. I definitely saw fentanyl threads being shut down at one point not too long ago and when I saw this thread, I assumed it must still be going on. If it is not then I apologize.

Maybe you should have taken a closer look at the actual entire forum instead of seeing a few closed threads that happened to be about fent at the same time and assume some conspiracy theory about banned topics.

You too crimson.

Anyone else have any unfounded criticism's they'd like to bring up?

Cool.

 

[BK Bonkey Kong]

You have two of your own mods arguing for the supression of these topics so don't act like there is no foundation for the criticisms. And I really can imagine how well your interactions with the community go if this is how you handle yourself.

I've said what I have to say. For those of you that find it relevant, I hope you take it to heart.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

You have two of your own mods arguing for the supression of these topics so don't act like there is no foundation for the criticisms. And I really can imagine how well your interactions with the community go if this is how you handle yourself.

I've said what I have to say. For those of you that find it relevant, I hope you take it to heart.

Nobody is arguing for blanket suppression of anything. Sorry I wasn't Mr. niceguy.. you were badmouthing something I worked hard on based on totally unfounded criticism..

I'm done talking about this. I made my point.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Tommyboy]

How about this... Report threads that you think should remain open and the mods will review it. That's better than throwing out various scenarios that we might come across, and it's better than wasting time with speculating here. So lets use our time and energy on the real thing instead of the scenarios you are bringing up here.

 

[cj]

The fact you think you've thought about this more than we have in the months of us deliberating/continued deliberation and speaking with members, is honestly kind of offensive.

Keep in mind there are many guests who view this site who aren't even members, many of which are incredibly new to drug use and take a lot of stock in what they read about members doing. Look at the OD home page.... how many threads do you see closed...? Not many. We do not "exclude" high risk members. They are the reason we came up with the policy.

There is a difference between regular drug use, and over the top, clearly dangerous, no if's and's or but's about it, behavior. By letting threads like that stand, we are sending a negative message to all the viewers who are taking that kind of uninformed reckless drug use as okay.

The closure of a thread is in essence a message in itself of HR.. When guests and new to drug use members see that and our explanation for closing discussion of incredibly dangerous drug use practices, we are clearing up the message of whether that is normal drug use or out and out dangerous irresponsibility.

And we do not cut contact with anybody. What you don't see is everything that happens after a thread is closed. PM'ing the member and continuing personal dialogue with them is a common occurrence. We explain to them the same thing.. that we have to consider how every thread and topic is going to influence the other people who are reading it. Our job isn't to cater to the OP.. it's to make sure we're sending the right message as a whole, especially to new and susceptible users.

Do we make mistakes sometimes in closing threads? Sure. OD is the largest sub forum on the largest drug site on the net... we deal with hundreds of threads a week. If we do make a mistake and a member makes a good point as to why their thread shouldn't be closed because we get very busy in having to try and divide our time equally for every thread, we reopen it.

Try and understand that you're seeing a very small fraction of the picture. We see the whole thing and know things you do not being a regular member. Our decisions are never in haste. If we weren't positive after much much deliberation that this was the right course of action for OD and BL as a whole, and the message we and our members want sent, we wouldn't have done it.

Why are you so defensive? We just want to have dialog about it.

How about this... Report threads that you think should remain open and the mods will review it. That's better than throwing out various scenarios that we might come across, and it's better than wasting time with speculating here. So lets use our time and energy on the real thing instead of the scenarios you are bringing up here.

Sounds very reasonable to me

 

[tricomb]

^Great idea tommyboy, that's the most effective way to "be the change you want to see".

Nobody is arguing for blanket suppression of anything. Sorry I wasn't Mr. niceguy.. you were badmouthing something I worked hard on based on totally unfounded criticism..

I'm done talking about this. I made my point.

Thanks for your opinion.

You made your point perfectly in my opinion. So much speculation in THIS thread, and I've seen one thread posted as a "was this what you mean!?" type example, having nothing to do with fentanyl or Team OD closing threads on our most at-risk members.

And also, at no point in time did two of our own mods argue for the suppression of these topics, so there's no need to start a personal inquisition against Mr. Scagnattie just because the OD policy (that as Mr. S said, the vast majority of our members in addition to our entire team on OD, is working very hard on our new vision for an OD that does not send mixed messages. Sekio gave a great hypothetical example.

I also don't understand the person who said "but why not just then keep the threads open to those who HAVE IV'd opana or fentanyl?" And to this, I ask you... what makes you think that the OD moderators have no experience in this area? Most if not all of team OD has 1st hand experience with opioids as potent as fentanyl, and that our experiences combined with our knowledge on the subject, may lead to the closure of a thread that lacks any HR possibilities to begin with. I have extensive experience with both oxymorphone and fentanyl, and I've first hand witnessed the dangers of their abuse. There is not much more of a reality check than carrying the Coffin of a loved one from the Hearse to their Funeral, over a death that could have been prevented. I've carried too many coffins, and that does not mean that fentanyl is, or ever has been a forbidden discussion topic in OD when it's an HR discussion that's taking place. All too often, people post how they personally abuse their fentanyl patches but they don't say a damn thing about how to be safe, combining CNS depressants, etc.

So again as Mr. Scagnattie said, there is so much more that goes on than you realize especially in the event of a thread closure of a high-risk member. Often, multiple moderators and OD regulars contact the person via PM or other means to give further insight.

There are just some threads that are asking how to achieve the impossible (Like A_C's drunk driving metaphoric example), and even if it's not impossible, read the OD guidelines: See anything about fentanyl being a forbidden topic?

This is a place for HARM REDUCTION and SAFER drug abuse, and I don't just close fentanyl threads on a whim because I know most posters are far more at-risk by attempting to proceed and abuse the drug rather than learn why they shouldn't, and I have no idea why you'd assume that lack of experience with the drug would lead to a thread's closure, when the people closing these threads, have pretty much all injected the exact drugs or similar and stronger compounds than oxymorphone and fentanyl.

So yeah again, the vast majority of OD regulars are ecstatic about the new policy changes and I (for one) constantly get PM's from old (and new) members saying THANKYOU for finally making the forum what it should have been years and years ago, and now, we really think that we can make a bigger impact on the next generation. Bluelight is the largest drug-forum on the internet, there are PLENTY of places you can go for a less... harm reductive...? stance on hardcore and reckless drug abuse. Other Drugs is no longer one of these places. Mind you that the vast majority of the current policy "changes" are merely my team's way of re-wording what GENERATIONS of OD moderators have tried to achieve for the forum, just read the OD guidelines and you won't notice many CHANGES besides the fact that we are cracking down on the original OD policies and what the forum stood for but we just are done seeing the forum slide into a place where HR has taken the backseat, when it's the core element of the forum. Just because it's Other Drugs, and thus fentanyl and oxymorphone threads usually would belong here, that doesn't mean that the way many users talk about abusing these compounds as if it weren't dangerous in the slightest, or just saying a pretty much useless "heres how I get fucked up!!! be careful though!!!", etc, follows the OD posting standards or is in any way okay or HR-motivated, which is often the reason why a thread ends up closed, and then matters are resolved via PM.


$0.02