Can Tramadol induce Hypomania in a % of users reporting an AntiDeppresant effect?

[skillet]

Again, venlafaxine is an SNRI, I can't help but wonder if the NRI might have something to do with it. Reboxetine is an NRI and was pretty stimulating - in a good way - for me, though the effect took some time to build, like 24h or so IIRC. (Strangely I tried it again a couple of years later, with just one tablet, and only got really sick for a day.)

I wouldn't say tramadol had the same kind of effect, but if it had coincided with the mu effects I might not have noticed.

 

[Anoymator]

Are there other people who took both Tramadol and Venlafaxine and are able to compare the effects regarding mood elevation or (hypo)mania (if pleasurable or not)? They are sometimes said to be quite similar chemically, to what I'd agree from looking at the structures, but I also remember to have read here that others disagree to that.

Venlafaxine, while being quite uninteresting when taken alone (as were the other SSRIs I've tried), did induce a very unique, repeatable and probably hypomanic state when combining with low dosages of DXM (even below 100 mg, but nevertheless something nobody should try without very careful titrating and being on the Venla for quite some time) lasting for days and mostly lacking any rebound depression. This was very different to any other "euphoric" drug effect I have experienced since then - in fact it felt the most natural I think, even in retrospective, albeit after day 2 or 3 the amplified noradrenergic stimulation and lack of deep sleep became distressing. Tried to get there again with DXM only or in combination with others without success, Citalopram did not do it either. So it's really about the Venlafaxine.

Of course with DXM being a quite dirty drug too, this is a different story.

But am really wondering if Tramadol is able to cause a comparable state of mind.

In my quest to search for tramadol experiences, I have found people reporting no similarity between the AD effects of tramadol and venlafaxine. The latter is a known SNRI with no mu activity while tramadol seems to have a a SERT releasing property on top of causing its reuptake, which could certainly change the subjective feeling of the drug. Likewise, I believe the structural similarity of both drugs has been debunked in this very same forum.

Tramadol seems to be a unique drug in that it activates so many monoamine pathways that trying to boil it down to 5HT activity would be equivocal. However, I can assure (and so can others) that the AD instant effect of tramadol is absolutely sublime in that it is very rapid (20 minutes on empty stomach) and feels more akin to a very low MDMA dose. This reported AD effect dies away at about the same time of tramadol's half-life. Moreover, this AD effect in turn seems to be more akin to a hypomanic state and is activated in a % of users from reading user experiences. There seems to be 3 type of effects experienced by people:

1) People who dislike the drug and don't feel analgesia nor AD effects.
2) People who don't notice the AD effect and enjoy the delayed analgesia from O-desmethytramadol.
3) People who get an instant AD boost from relatively small doses (100-200mgs) and don't take the drug for analgesia.

I'd say that 1) and 2) make 90% of reported experiences while 3) makes 10%. It is this 10% of users that I was/am hinting may be undiagnosed bipolar and are activating hypomanic episodes unknowingly (e.g. my case).

 

[crOOk]

Okay before you get the wrong impression here - Tramadol is by far my favourite antidepressant/feel-good/chill-out/get-shit-done drug. Nothing can go wrong while I'm on it. Except... Yeah mania can develope while under the influence. Hypomania is pretty common for me while on it, especially during the first few hours. When the opioid effects start showing their depressant effects, the hypomania tends to get masked underneith a stonedness and I feel neither too stimulated nor too stoned. I guess it's a bit sneaky, cause while taking Tramadol for 6months straight (not an hour off it ofc), I started developing my first full-spectrum mania, which eventually had a nice psychotic touch added to it.

It can induce mania, hypomania and serotonine toxicity in combination with other medication. I remember two incidences in particular where as little as 50mg combined with a low dose of Opipramol induced HEAVY serotonine fucked-upness, very much like rolling on much larger an MDMA dose than I could feel comfortable on, without the pleasant vibrations, but with massive "visual confusion", whole body trembling for hours on end, a whole boat load of psychedelic side effects on top (thick spit and god awful feeling in my throat). Very very unpleasant and quite scary, even for someone like me who has stared into the abyss more than once.
When that happened I had taken tramadol countless times already and I really enjoyed opipramol as well. I again combined these two, lowering both dosages to 50% and again: MASSSIVE serotonine side effects, barely any opioid effects.

I'm usually one of those people who seem to have very high CYP2D6 activity, resulting in full-blown opioid effects, which I prefer over ANY other oral opioid I've tried (including oxycodone which I have vast experiences with, morphine and hydromorphone, both oh which I've probably taken on ~50 days each). In turn I only get minimal SSRI effects, but those are very pleasant to me, since I'm BP I and Tramadol is the only SSRI that won't make me go out and want to hug everyone before turning full-on psycho on the world.

I was just researching Tramadol for BP I and the risks since I've been wanting to ask a doctor to prescribe it along with Olanzapine (and speed please) for my mood disorder. 15mg Amphetamine Sulphate, 100mg Tramadol HCl XR and 10mg Olanzapine and I'd be golden. Well, not really since this seems to be causing long term progression of the episodes' intensities. Bleh, ideally I'd just get off all of them.

God fuck shit I'll run out of Tram in 2 weeks max and this time I won't find anymore tabs in some drawer. Speed is almost gone as well and everyone I know who can get that shit in proper quality (>15% and no nasty-ass cuts) already has a saturated DOC blotter stash. Waaaaah, I can see myself entering the clinic which maybe is for the best. Or maybe if I withdraw the neuroleptics at the same time I can level out. Risky business.

 

[crOOk]

2) People who don't notice the AD effect and enjoy the delayed analgesia from O-desmethytramadol.
3) People who get an instant AD boost from relatively small doses (100-200mgs) and don't take the drug for analgesia.

I'm 2) thanks to my enzyme balance and 3) thanks to my bipolar I. BAM! God this drug is perfect.

Btw if someone decides he needs to get the max out of his Tramadol experience... I've seriously seen people get fucked as SHIT on this combination, while they usually wouldn't get anything out of the same amount of Tramadol.

-During the day before consumption, sip 300-1000ml Grapefruit juice.
-Ingest 60-120mg DXM Hbr. during that time, it's okay if you take the DXM with the Tramadol though.
-If you have XR tablets, crush them, make sure the spoon or whatever you use for that is dry. Now the ones we have in German hospitals gel up. This is how you get around that quickly:
Take any sort of electrolyte powder (magnesium citrate, potassium citrate, plain NaCl table salt, it's all worked fine. Pour a small tablespoon of it into a cup and add at least the same amount of sugar. I sometimes also add some Vit C + Sodium Bi-Carbonate as well.
-Put the tram pill powder into the powder mix. If you have some around Propylene Glycol or PEG-400 seem to help absorption (but taste like ass). Now pour only a small amount of water/grapefruit juice on top of this, enough to make it drinkable, but not so much that the sugar dissolves. While you pour, stir vigorously with a spoon. You won't see any gelling whatsoever, eventhough the liquid might leave a gelly texture on the walls of the glass. After gulping it down, I add a tiny bit of water to the cup, gulp it down as well, wipe the rest off the interior glass wall with my index finger, suck that godly nectar off said finger and get rid of the little amount of bad taste there's gonna be with all the sugar and electrolytes in the drink.

Now after an hour I eat 50-75mg Diphenhydramine. Eating it at the same time is okay though, but I really enjoy those first 2-4h of mostly SSRI effects. Without a tolerance I can use 100mg this way and be nodding for 20h straight. Yes, nodding, nodding harder than hydromorphone has ever made me nod. The waves of warm energy I get are orgasmic. The ssri effects must help with the oxytocine (lovey-dovey) side of effects. All (!) drugs carry that for me, but Tramadol gets close to MDMA when it comes to bringing out my peaceful side.


Btw I don't know many drugs with a more complex pharmacologic profile than Tramadol. Most stuff said here, both by me and by others, doesn't go far past generalization and guesstimation. E.g. from what I've heard, O-desmetyl-tramadol often isn't all that even to those who enjoy tramadol itself. And ofc how much CYP2D6 I have is only half the story. There are 4 isomers, 5 known metabolites, each of which will probably have several isomers as well (cba to look at structures). There are 3 Cyp450s involved in the metabolization and probably alternative routes of detoxification as well. Depending on which genetic variation an individual carries and which regimen of drugs he takes, one route could be much more active than another or much less active than the same route in another individual. Some might have defects causing them to lack a single route entirely or express a metbolic pathway yet undescribed. Most of this stuff goes for other drugs as well, but with Tramadol it seems oh-so significant, considering how large the variation in effects can be. When I onl take 100mg, got a tolerance and all, the effects are barely noticeable and thats how Im taking it these days (to level, not to experience peaks of pleasure), but when I apply above "tricks", its one hell of an opiate and much more than that. Empathogen, antidepressant, pain killer, tranquilizer, stimulant, whatever I want it to be. :D God I love this stuff and I feel so damn lucky that this stuff is not scheduled as a get-you-high drug over here. Or cursed anyway.

 

[MeDieViL]

I have been pondering this question for quite some time now.

There seems to be a % of users who use tramadol for its antidepressant (AD) rapid effects, I am one of them and I have read of similar experiences from others in this forum and on the internet. Instead of using tramadol for what it is supposed to be (painkiller), some people find its benefits to be of an AD nature albeit of a different nature than conventional SSRI-type ADs.

I have been using tramadol for some years and every time I have looked back at what I have done when I was using tramadol, what I have accomplished screams of hypomania: mild euphoria, increased social drive (to the point of becoming dangerous/time wasting), increased empathy, increased energy, increased creativity, grandiosity and foolishness. I used to get this from small doses 100-150mgs although these days I need 250mgs to get to this level due to tolerance. My use (abuse) of tramadol has always been for this marked benefit, never for the painkilling properties of the drug. In fact, this AD-esque effect only lasts 4 or 5 hours and then I enter a 2nd phase marked by analgesia which I dislike (the AD effects wear off in this 2nd phase, coinciding with the half-life of the drug and the metabolizing of tramadol to the o-desmethyl form).

Looking at the structure and pharmacology of tramadol, I cannot help but wonder if tramadol is activating hypomania in me and a subset of users of the drug who, like me, find this drug to be unique in terms of its AD effect. I have ADHD (diagnosed) and I suspect a bipolar disorder too (undiagnosed but suggested by doctor). I have a prescription of methylphenidate and no matter how much I take (abuse), I never get the same effect as tramadol, no other drug has me achieving this unique AD effect other than tramadol.

I was contemplating using tramadol long-term to reap this AD effect. However, as I say, every time I look back to what I did while using tramadol, it screams hypomanic and it has made me do dangerous stuff as well as waste my time on a lot of stuff (all while euphoric and with grandiosity). I have a lot of energy and motivation but I am all over the place and have done a lot of foolish acts due to tramadol-induced misjudgement. Since SSRIs are known to activate hypomania in a % of users I was wondering if tramadol would also be capable of this too as tramadol has a unique pharmacology in that it seems to release serotonin AND cause its reuptake too. I have never used SSRIs though but as I say, no other drug (including stimulants such as amphetamine or methylphenidate) can bring this stimulating AD-esque effect in me: this has made me take tramadol as my Drug of Choice for years, I haven't used other drugs.

Sero release is antidepressive and the mild opiate antagonism will cause a mild high simular to mild hypomania, this doesnt mean it actually induces hypomania but it may do if your like bipolar, just like ssri's could.

it was pretty much like taking a weak E all day every day to be honest.

not suprising as its a sero releaser, nri and induces opiate release trough mu agonism (mu causes the euphoria of mdma tough) anyway that all togheter makes it simular to mild e.

 

[crOOk]

opiate agonism*

 

[sekio]

not suprising as its a sero releaser, nri and induces opiate release trough mu agonism (mu causes the euphoria of mdma tough) anyway that all togheter makes it simular to mild e.

keep this kind of silly gurgle off of ADD please. "Mild hypomania?" what the fuck kind of paradoxical shit is this

I would like to see you post some citations for once, also? I was unaware mu opioid agonism caused release of opioid peptides too?
And calling tramadol "similar to a mild E"? What the fuck is a mild E? MDMA is nowhere near trmadol in terms of effects. no way no how. And even though mdma's euphoria may be somewhat migitated by mu opioid agonism, it is not entirely blocked!

Please stop posting here if all you have to back it up is stimulants in your blood! ADD is for academic discussion not for "this drug made me feel like MDMA, please tell me a good story as to why!"

 

[crOOk]

lol i wasnt aware this is posted in add. :D should probably be moved anyway. my rant doesnt exactly qualify as a disquisition on the neuropharmacology of tramadol either. sorry bout that...

 

[MeDieViL]

keep this kind of silly gurgle off of ADD please. "Mild hypomania?" what the fuck kind of paradoxical shit is this

I would like to see you post some citations for once, also? I was unaware mu opioid agonism caused release of opioid peptides too?
And calling tramadol "similar to a mild E"? What the fuck is a mild E? MDMA is nowhere near trmadol in terms of effects. no way no how. And even though mdma's euphoria may be somewhat migitated by mu opioid agonism, it is not entirely blocked!

Please stop posting here if all you have to back it up is stimulants in your blood! ADD is for academic discussion not for "this drug made me feel like MDMA, please tell me a good story as to why!"

Every high has some resemblance with mild hypomania, tramadal does as its very mild.

Mu agonism doesnt release opiate peptides ment dopamine release in the reward related area's trough mu agonism, its a serotonin releaser i dont know what it feels like i just said that i wouldnt be suprised as it releases serotonin togheter with some mu euphoria.

I never noticed anything of tramadol mate, i wouldnt know wheter it feels like mdma, all i did was explain to this guy why it may have felt like mild e to him and made him kinda hypomanic.

 

[sekio]

-> odd

 

[Anoymator]

Hey all, it has been close to a year and a half when I created this thread.

I initially posted it in the ADD discussion because I truly wanted to discuss the more clinical side of tramadol and how its nasty pathways can induce hypomania or even full bown mania on some users. Other have reported this effect and since if you search for "tramadol hypomania" in Google, this thread comes up as a first result, I thought I should update this thread as part of improving the dialogue between drugs and users and to emphasize responsibility with any kind of drug you use.

Tramadol no longer gives me that sublime AD effect. Unfortunately I am still on it and initial doses of 400mgs (empty stomach, single dose) only wake me up. If I take 500mgs I can get a little of that AD effect but with such a dose I am risking a seizure (even with 400mgs I am risking a seizure).

I have absolute confidence tramadol has made me hypomanic and even full blown manic. I have edited out some of the stuff I have done on tramadol, but rest assured it is some crazy stuff.

All the above effects I have had in my life without taking tramadol too; however, tramadol has amplified them so much it has made me do stuff I never thought I would do. I thought of it initially as the perfect drug; you know those little annoying things in your daily life like having an argument with your girlfriend? Well, imagine if those little things no longer upsetted you and you felt cheerful and wanting to fix those things. Truly a miracle drug at the beginning. I wanted to hug people and listen to them; I have given gifts to people without any other reason other than "because I like them" even though they were almost strangers. It has made me want to take over the world and part of this is what has earned me a good income.

I have learned to love and hate tramadol. Mind you I don't blame anyone nor do I blame tramadol; I only blame myself for my current state and take full responsibility for my actions. Tramadol only did what it was supposed to do when I was prescribed the drug many moons ago, but I noticed the side effect of being an AD close to what 100mgs of MDMA could do, and I have taken MDMA in a variety of doses including a possible 1 gram dose (reported by my friend who was a drug dealer. That dose fucked me up beyond recognition).

I have lied to everyone to get tramadol. I am a good actor (I should have considered this career only that I am ugly as fuck LOL) and on tramadol I am an even better actor. I have gotten up to 300 pills in a single shopping session at pharmacies where I could get it without a prescription if I convinced the pharmacist I was in pain (the amount of bullshit I have told them makes me feel guilty). Unfortunately, I cannot NOT have tramadol. When I go shopping it is for a real need because tramadol withdrawals are f***cking AWFUL. Please, anyone reading my lines, do not become dependent on this drug. I was hooked on another nasty drug some years ago and its withdrawal (which can cause seizures) was a walk in the park compared to tramadol withdrawal.

I feel updating this thread will give the FDA and other regulating agencies more evidence to further regulate tramadol. However, by updating this thread I can also help others contemplating the long term use of tramadol or on the edge of becoming physically addicted to it. Being on tramadol is like having a chemical set of cuffs; this same description was used by someone on a Youtube video covering heroin and methadone and that person hooked on methadone used that same description. That's how bad the abuse of tramadol can become.

By all means, I weighted the pros and cons of tramadol and knew what I was getting into. This is not a case of "oh my doctor didn't warn me and know I am f**cked". Due to personal reasons I decided to continue with tramadol as it helped me with some things I had in my life. Was it thanks to tramadol? Well, all tramadol has done is amplify my personality and motivation. It has made me a good man and a bad man, but I was already a good man and a bad man (as much as I hate that dark side of me and try to tame it). I am fairly confident I am bipolar, but I rather not be diagnosed as that would mean that they would cut my tramadol prescription (I have a prescription but also go pharmacy shopping to satisfy my daily doses). I also get a very generous amount of other drugs I don't use and I have built a massive collection of drugs such as methylphenidate and clonazepam which I plan to use for my withdrawal (I also have clonidine, escilatropam, alprazolam, trazodone, pregabalin and much more). I plan to get off tramadol whenever I consider it convenient, but withdrawing means at least 2 weeks of no activity whatsoever and at least another month of feeling suicidal and depressed.

Tramadol no longer gives me the AD effect. It makes me suicidal and hostile i.e. the other dark side of the bipolar spectrum. Before, I would feel like a god on tramadol, nowadays I feel suicidal, hostile. The only effect left is stimulation and grandiosity. I have allowed tramadol to carve itself into my life, so now I CANNOT stop its (ab)use.

I also plan on seeing a mental health specialist about my bipolar disorder. I am not doing it because then my tramadol prescription would be cut and I cannot afford that at the moment. I have learned to tame those dark feelings I get on tramadol and I try to remain optimistic, but I just don't get any elevated positive anymore despite the fact I am easily doubling the dose I was taking when I started this thread 1 1/2 years ago.

I would rather remain anonymous as my username implies (I did spell it like that on purpose). There are many users of tramadol who you would not suspect they are hooked to this chemical cuff. They are mothers, businessmen, doctors, researchers, professors. I have read so many stories about tramadol addiction, it's crazy. I would however prefer tramadol was left regulated as it is. Tramadol is not an evil drug per se; it's simply a drug that will do what it is supposed to do and in a % of users it will make them feel so much better in terms of their mood and motivation. However, many of those % of users will seek tramadol through other means and get their tolerance up to a point they will have to lie to their wives, husbands, doctors, parents, brothers, friends and everyone around them. I know this because this is exactly my case.

If you are bipolar, please be careful with this drug. If you are not bipolar, still be careful about this drug. Be aware that the sublime feeling it can give you with 200mgs and a strong cup of coffee will literally grab you by the balls in a year's time or even less. Do not think of this drug as a drug for eternity; tramadol will carve itself into your life to the point that hilariously-huge doses that risk a seizure will only make you feel like you felt when you were sober, and if you dare stop taking tramadol, you will experience what real pain and suffering is. I have read of people describing the withdrawal as worse than heroin, and, while I have tried heroin but never been hooked, I can guarantee you the demons in your head will pop out and royally f*ck you up (plus all the physical effects of the withdrawal). I knew what I was getting into, but reading the reports of the gross withdrawal of tramadol while I was on tramadol and feeling sublime made me not fully consider the warnings. You see, I felt like a god on tramadol; there's no other way to describe it. If I had known exactly what my stage would be some 2 years later I would have perhaps consider other treatments or be sober. I don't even f*cking remember what it was feeling sober.

When I posted this thread I really meant to get some discussion on the more-advanced pharmaceutical side of tramadol, but I can understand why the thread was moved seeing the replies given. I came across this thread today because when I woke up and while starting to withdraw from tramadol as I hadn't taken my dose, I was crying as I was thinking of the people who would be affected by me committing suicide. I know I would kill the soul of my parents and my brothers, and that's too much too handle. But I feel there's no other way out. I try to be optimistic, but tramadol puts me down. And I cannot stop taking tramadol because then I will be at a real risk of committing suicide.

I cannot reiterate enough to all of you considering tramadol for the long term, please be CAREFUL and think twice and of other options. I did try other options but nothing made me feel as good and "normal" as tramadol did. If you are going through this and really considering tramadol as your DOC for long term, please be aware that those AD effects will fade away after months of use or abuse, and you will be left in a very dark side of your life.

Take care everyone and God (the real God) bless you all.

 

[Ethan8]

......and now i realise too late.....


the sign says exit but this is not a way out.

 

[TheLostBoys]

It seems a lot of people have a hard time with withdrawals when quitting.........I've used tramadol for several months before & stopped cold turkey w/o any withdrawals, strange.

It did nothing for my chronic back pain but it did help me if I was down & out but had to be mixed with soma or Valium to give me a sedated & smooth buzz.

If it's Tramadol or an Antidepressant, its no question for me, Tramadol all the way.......as for negative side effects, Tramadols positives out way the negatives compared to the nasty AD's side effects where I don't see any positives.

I haven't done anything wild & crazy on tramadol & no one else that I personally know has either......