Can I predose a beta-blocker when taking MDMA?

[ninjapirateroberts]

I'm planning to try MDMA for the first time (well... it's technically the second time, but first time I got some shitty purple crap so I didn't really "feel" MDMA, but this time I have a relatively pure product) but I have a trauma with substances that increase HR (messed with cocaine + other stimulant and had worst panic attack believing it was heart attack) which made me carry a beta-blocker everywhere I go and always keep them on my pocket when doing drugs (both psychedelics and stimulants; I only not carry them for ketamine and benzos). My "bad trips" start when I focus my attention on my HR, notice it that it's a little high, and I start to feel panic that I might get a heart attack, and the vicious cycle continues until I take my beta-blocker (once taken, I feel an immediate relief that "okay, I will not die" and the bad trip ends).

I'm planning to do a single 85 mg MDMA dose. Even though that's a relatively light dose, it's still have effects on the cardiovascular system, so in the middle of the MDMA "trip", I fear I would start to focus my attention on my HR and get paranoid. I'm planning to dose 20 mg Propranolol an hour or 30 minutes before MDMA administration. I couldn't find a lot of literature on this except that it helps with tachycardia but not mean arterial BP. I believe ingesting Propranolol prior to MDMA would give me a sense of "relief" and makes me just focus on the enjoyable aspects of MDMA instead of focusing on my HR, getting paranoid and potentially having a panic attack (when that happens I'd eventually have to take the Propranolol anyway).

PS: Attached a pic of the product (tested it at an FTIR lab and came back with no cuts but pure MDMA, but of course don't know the purity % but I believe this is relatively pure than crap I had last time).

 

[Tranced]

I twice took tramadol before MDMA, completely by accident (I just forgot), and that's an MAOI and an SNRI so a big no no.

I only took a dose in the morning, so it had worn "off", subjectively; but I'd been taking it for weeks so it was definitely still "on", as both an SNRI and an MAOI.

I honestly think I experienced seratonin syndrome, and thank god it didn't kill me. From what I remember I just felt a bit shit and deoressed (for the first time ever on MDMA), and a bit off, so decided to go to sleep.

Then it kicked in, full pelt, after it should have warn off, hours later. The delay alone shocked me, not as much as what was to come. It escalated, and continued to escalate, for hours. I felt WEIRD, dissasociated, in ways I can not describe, from a single dose, 130mg dose of MDMA that should not have been effecting me at that time, both clinically and from 20 years experience, and many a high repeated dose.

The brain zaps/jolts were in ny brain and completely derailed me every time, nothing like MDMA brain zaps, and they made the horendous benzo-incomingseizure brain zaps/jolts look weak and trivulous. The confusion, odd prickling sensation, anxiety, heart palpatations, searing temperature, muscle twitching (convulsions), feeling I was close to having a grand mal (I thought that maybe I did), blurry vision but way worse and more odd than is usual for MDMA, etc etc, made me very scared and knowing something was wrong and I knew death was a possibility.

The MDMA literally told me something was not right and this was not MDMA, and when I asked "then what the fuck is this" the response was "you've been taking tramadol you idiot. Don't do this a
ain. You fucked up".

Yes, MDMA genuinely has conversations with me sometimes, as per the other respected healing drugs. Once on MDA it organised a gurning competition with random contestants like "Barry from Wales" then afterwards reminded me I had an important interview at 9, and that it was 6am if I checked, so to enjoy it. And again, don't do that again.

On the tramadol it took me absolutely hours (5? More?) to realise I was probably experiencing seratonin syndrome, and only because MDMA called me on the tramadol use. It also took me ages to unlock my phone and search for the NHS symptoms list, and they matched. NHS:

Common side effects

Common side effects of SSRIs can include:

feeling agitated, shaky or anxious
feeling or being sick
indigestion
diarrhoea or constipation
loss of appetite and weight loss
dizziness
blurred vision
dry mouth
excessive sweating
sleeping problems (insomnia) or drowsiness
headaches
loss of libido (reduced sex drive)
difficulty achieving orgasm during sex or masturbation
in men, difficulty obtaining or maintaining an erection (erectile dysfunction)

These side effects should improve over time, although some – such as sexual problems – can persist.
Less common side effects

Less common side effects of SSRIs can include:

bruising or bleeding easily, including vomiting blood or bleeding from your bottom
confusion
movement problems, such as stiffness or shaking
seeing or hearing things that aren't real (hallucinations)
being unable to pee

I slept it off, knowing that risk, and was thankfully fine i.e no residual effects, other than feeling off and being boiling hot for 24 hours, and the next time I took MDMA I was fine. Very, very lucky in many different senses.

And Yes I've taken MDMA and tramadol since, but that was about a 10mg bump which I know to be inactive, because I thought it might do a little enhanced something, and wanted to prove I had tramadol induced seratonin (or MAOI) syndrome. I was fine, other than it lasted about 12 hours. Yes, I was a fool. I won't be repeating, ever, again.

Do not go there. Trust me. Not worth the experience or you're life.

 

[Tranced]

Oh you said beta-blocker. FFS.

okay so read that post to never mix with SSRI/SNRI's/MAOI'S and then never do, but otherwise ignore it.

I thought you said a MAOI.

There is often discussion not to mix MDMA with beta-blockers, usually propranalol, but everything I could ever find indicated that people were fine. So I took MDMA on propranolol, and noticed zero side effects. I think it's just perpetuated because other people said it TBH, notabley Ann Shulgin( who said 20 minutes before hand is fine, but not during, iirc).

If the Ann Shulgin thing I just said is correct, and I wasn't an anomoly, then I think you'll be fine. If it wasn't for the heart issue I've witnessed two friends anxiously obsess over, which I think is basically a self induced panic attack; your heart is meant to beat fadt on MDMA, be worried when it isn"t!).

You mentioned you've had heart issues: have you actually, or have you thought you had and had panic attacks which induce heart issues? Again, fast heart on MDMA = absolutely normal.

The way I fix my friends is explaining this, distracting them (walk or music etc), or giving them a benzo. On that note, I'd far suggest benzos or even ketamine above propranolol for this.


One more thing, please, please do not take 85mg to try and save yourself. Petpetually coming up on MDMA causes more anxiety than being fully up on it (which is anti-anxiety), by far. Take a reasonable single dose which gets you fully "up" but not too mangled, such as 130mg, and you'll be flying, not giving a shit about mental based heart issues; you might even cure yourself. I promise you, I know MDMA inside out and I've gotten multiple social circles and friends into the stuff. (honestly, hundreds of people). Two worried about their hearts once they were up, one I cured with a benzo, and one I explained and distracted. I always give people 130mg. A few younger people I know have terrible nights from splitting doses.

People here are probably going to disagreed with me. I took it for the first time judt 23 days under 21 days ago. I am very experienced. It looks clean. This drug is all love and no scares. It IS a healer. Dose properly and ENJOY. xx

I typed more but Ill come back to it as it went.

Badically, the tune I came up to at 27.20. We didn't come up properly for like two hours until we found the girls, it was so anxious and horrible.

When we did, 10000 people pilled up on MDMA and hugging, club in carnage, all worries literaly gone. Its still my all time favourite tune. Tiesto played it. Still never heard a definitive club destroyed like this in 20 years of doing what I found I loved.

Plastic Boy - Silverbath

27.20 video 1
First tune on video 2




Goosebumps every time.

 

[snmfmy]

Which beta blocker?

Specifically carvedilol has been used to minimize the shitty cardiac and sympathomimetic effects of MDMA as well as reduce hyperthermia.

WITHOUT AFFECTING OR REDUCING THE SUBJECTIVE EMOTIONAL AND BEHAVIORAL EFFECTS OF MDMA

Carvedilol inhibits the cardiostimulant and thermogenic effects of MDMA in humans - PMC

The use of ±3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ‘ecstasy’) is associated with cardiovascular complications and hyperthermia. We assessed the effects of the α1- and β-adrenoceptor antagonist carvedilol on the cardiostimulant, thermogenic and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Carvedilol is a non-selective beta blocker and an alpha 1 adrenergic blocker as well.

Carvedilol - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

Which beta blocker?

Specifically carvedilol has been used to minimize the shitty cardiac and sympathomimetic effects of MDMA as well as reduce hyperthermia.

WITHOUT AFFECTING OR REDUCING THE SUBJECTIVE EMOTIONAL AND BEHAVIORAL EFFECTS OF MDMA

Carvedilol inhibits the cardiostimulant and thermogenic effects of MDMA in humans - PMC

The use of ±3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ‘ecstasy’) is associated with cardiovascular complications and hyperthermia. We assessed the effects of the α1- and β-adrenoceptor antagonist carvedilol on the cardiostimulant, thermogenic and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Carvedilol is a non-selective beta blocker and an alpha 1 adrenergic blocker as well.

Carvedilol - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I only have Propranolol, which is nonselective.

 

[snmfmy]

I only have Propranolol, which is nonselective.

It doesn't look like it's going to cause any issue. I found a citation for pindalol specifically in reference to MDMA and it reduces the heart rate but not the blood pressure. And since there's no alpha 1 component, it doesn't reduce the other sympathomimetic alpha 1 receptor-based issues.

Why are you concerned if you can take it? Is it a medication that you have to take regularly?

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

It doesn't look like it's going to cause any issue. I found a citation for pindalol specifically in reference to MDMA and it reduces the heart rate but not the blood pressure. And since there's no alpha 1 component, it doesn't reduce the other sympathomimetic alpha 1 receptor-based issues.

Why are you concerned if you can take it? Is it a medication that you have to take regularly?

No, I don’t take Propeanolol for any condition. I only take it for anxiety. I take Vyvanse (dexamphetamine) daily for ADHD and on some days if I feel some anxiety I take 20mg Propranolol.

Most of my anxiety comes from thought loops: I first feel my HR getting a little fast, then I think I’ll get a heart attack and die suddenly, and then it goes into that loop until I take the Propranolol at which point I feel, “okay i’ll not die”. I don’t have any heart condition so it’s all in my mind.

I know MDMA increases HR and BP and a lot of trip reports I read say so, so if I take away this unwanted side effects (anxiety) of MDMA, I can still enjoy and get benefits from the psychoactive action of MDMA without having to entire this anxiety thought loop.

 

[EDNurse01]

Have you ever had an issue previously with a low heart rate or really low blood pressure? Any history of fainting?
If the answers are no, then you'd be safe pre-dosing the 20mg of propanolol, and even giving yourself a 10-20mg top up if needed (as long as your heartrate is actually elevated). It will help with reducing heart rate, anxiety, sweating and tremors. The effects on blood pressure will likely be minimal but there should be a small reduction.
Other betablockers have a stronger effect on BP for example Atenolol however is longer acting than propanolol and more risky to play around with.

I generally swallow my propanolol at the same time as my Dex for ADHD but ive had a known heart rate issue for years so was on propanolol prior to even starting Dex.
Ive got some patients who take 40mg at a time with nil issues.

I dont generally advise playing around with beta blockers in general, but in your situation it sounds reasonable.

 

[Esperighanto]

I'm not a doctor by any stretch but my friends and I have mixed propranolol with MDMA, as well as various N-benzylated phenethylamines, and it's been fine for us every time. Doesn't mean it will be for you, but it was for us at least.