Can dmt lead to an alergic reaction? Plz help

[Flinch]

As an Immunologist, I can confirm that the above described reaction is consistent with a delayed type-1 hypersensitivity (allergic) reaction and should be taken very seriously . This would be an example of a sensitization (or 'priming') reaction, which occurs the first time the body encounters an allergen. Antigen presenting immune cells 'capture' the allergen, bring it back to the lymph nodes, and present it to your bodies B-cells. These B-cells 'learn' to be specific for the given antigen, replicate, and produce an antibody called IgE.

This entire process takes 24-48 hours, and the result is a spike in circulating IgE in the blood, inducing late-phase dermatological eruptions/rashes. Subsequent exposures to the same allergen will induce classical anaphylaxis with a risk of death. This occurs because the B-cells previously activated retain a memory of the allergen, and respond with a very intense and localized burst of IgE at the site of exposure (e.g. throat/lungs). IgE binds to mast cells, causes a huge histamine release, and anaphylaxis results.

First exposure to an allergen almost never causes anaphylaxis, and almost always presents with a rash 24-48hrs later as you've described. You'll only see anaphylaxis on a first exposure in certain situations, such as IV administration of the allergen, or after a massive exposure via other routes.

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So what in the DMT could be responsible for this reaction? As negrogesic was hinting at above, plant source DMT could easily be contaminated with plant proteins which could provoke this type of response.

Black on the other hand is completely wrong in suggesting that DMT is too small to be recognized by antibodies. It's true that organic molecules are almost never recognized by antibodies. However, alkaloids (which DMT is) can in fact sensitize individuals and provoke very strong and potentially deadly immune reactions. A good example of this are opiates, with IgE responses to morphine being very common.

Best advice: DON'T SMOKE DMT AGAIN!

Thanks for the advice. But going on the previous posts, I smoked quite abit (150 or so mg in total, not all at once of course) and didnt find any negative side effects, although now (afew days alter) i did notice some bumps, but they could of easily of just been actual mozzie bites.

If i do get anaphylaxis, what would be the best way to live? Im guessing number 1 would be call ambo, remain calm. Is the whole cutting a whole in the throat really a viable option? Freaky...

 

[Flinch]

As mentioned it is relatively unlikely that you would develop a localized allergic reaction 2 days after consumption of the DMT. Was it the orange sludge, or was it crystalline (an adverse reaction is more probable in respect to the former, however this would still be very uncommon)..

It is very white, only a hint of yellow. Theres a pic in my gallery.

 

[MurphyClox]

Being that DMT is destroyed so rapidly, it'd likely be entirely gone by a day, probably by 12 hours. How does a delayed reaction occur to something that'd be entirely gone by that point?

...Hammilton got a point. Good question. I am confused but I would guess that the initial immune response (when you still don't "feel" any allergic reaction) occurs when there is still plenty of DMT floating around. It then takes some time that the cellular mechanism work it out. I would compare it to a machine that has to warm up for a time...but the start is set at the very beginning. Bah! Lack of approriate words, I'm not full awake yet I hope you get what I was trying to say.

Peace! *yawn* Murphy

 

[Black]

I'd like to read some of the original papers that describe DMT as an endogenous tryptamine. I'm highly skeptical that DMT would be present at detectable levels in blood/serum. My reasoning for this is that DMT is rapidly degraded by the enzyme monoamine oxidase, which is present in the blood (within platelets) as well as the liver. This is the reason why oral DMT is inactive unless combined with an MAOI.

here's the link to one of the abstracts i was looking at (i can't find the other ones at the moment): http://www.springerlink.com/content/kw2nm252m3248864/

in fact i've always wondered about dmt being present in the bloodstream with MAO there. either the body produces a whole lot of dmt or the measurements back then were faulty (after all they did believe that lsd was eliminated from the body in the first 2 or 3 hours of taking it back then…)

 

[MurphyClox]

Interesting. But in the article it's written:

No statistically significant differences between psychiatric patients and control subjects were found.

So what?

 

[vecktor]

^ well I suppose they were looking for a chemical reason for craziness, when everyone knows it is to do with the moon and tides pulling the craziness around in peoples brains.

 

[Black]

Interesting. But in the article it's written:
So what?

but they did measure dmt levels in blood. if they detect dmt in the bloodstream then we have dmt circulating there which could be recognised by IgE immunoglobulines.

 

[MurphyClox]

Agree! They indeed detected some... I can send the article by mail if somebody wants it. Just give me a PM.

Murphy

 

[raybeez]

but they did measure dmt levels in blood. if they detect dmt in the bloodstream then we have dmt circulating there which could be recognised by IgE immunoglobulines.

For those who don't have access to the paper, these are the highlights of their findings:

13/23 people with schizophrenia/hypomania and 7/17 controls had detectible DMT in their blood (0.05 ng/ml sensitivity)

No statistical difference between mentally ill and control patients

Another paper (Corbett et al. 1978. Brit J. Pschiat. 132:139-44) reports a similar experiment with similar findings using cerebral spinal fluid (CSF) rather than blood. In this paper, 13/34 acute schizophrenics, 2/16 chronic schitzophrenics, and 4/26 controls had "detectable" levels of DMT.

Bottom line: Although there may or may not be some role for DMT in psychiatric illness like schizophrenia, for the most part healthy individuals did not have detectable levels of DMT in either blood or CSF.


Also of relevance is this paper. The authors report developing immunoassays for quantifying DMT and other tryptamines in Phalaris. To do this, they raised antibodies to different indoles in rabbits. Although the indoles were conjugated to other antigens to make them more immunogenic, the antibodies generated were specific for the tryptamines.

 

[MurphyClox]

If I remember it correctly, the authors of this above article also state that to their knowledge it is still unclear if the DMT is released constantly or in episodes. The second possibility could explain why
1. lots of patients didn't have any DMT (i.e. whole amount from last release (if ever happended though) was already metabolized).
2. it is possible at all that DMT is detected in the blood (i.e. last release was recently for whatever reason and there's still not the whole amount degraded).

Logic conclusion to me: At least from this article you cannot exclude the possibility that DMT is really produced naturally in the human body (or due to pathological reasons like schizophrenia). If other sources confirm this finding then it sounds even more propable to me. Did they seek for an explanation like: "the pathological presence of DMT is directly linked to schizoprenia somehow"? And if so, is this actually accepted as right (by means of the medical community)?

The authors report developing immunoassays for quantifying DMT and other tryptamines in Phalaris. To do this, they raised antibodies to different indoles in rabbits. Although the indoles were conjugated to other antigens to make them more immunogenic, the antibodies generated were specific for the tryptamines.

Back to the topic. So this should be an indirect prove for the statement that even small molecules like DMT can cause the immune system to react...And as you said, the conjugated antigens made the DMT just more immunogenic, so they were only something like an enhancer but still not the reason for the reaction. Any further opposition in this point? :D

Peace! Murphy

 

[Black]

@raybeez
thanks, that really clears up some questions.
i've also found some articles claiming that small neutral indoles like skatole get bound to human serum albumine. maybe some dmt (at least the neutral ones [should be about 5%]. i don't know if albumine binds positively charged organic molecules) can also bind to hsa and therefore enabling it to pose a much better target for the immune system.

 

[Ham-milton]

at least from this article you cannot exclude the possibility that DMT is really produced naturally in the human body (or due to pathological reasons like schizophrenia). If other sources confirm this finding then it sounds even more propable to me. Did they seek for an explanation like: "the pathological presence of DMT is directly linked to schizoprenia somehow"? And if so, is this actually accepted as right (by means of the medical community)?

No, DMT is found in normal people too. There hasn't been any correlation found between schizophrenia and blood DMT levels.

Do schizophrenics act like more like they've drank Ayahuasca or done way too much speed? Obviously the latter. DA problems seem far more likely than DMT.