Stimulants Caffeine, Safe but counter-productive stimulant?

[Neuroprotection]

I think most start out with the best of intentions. But inevitably, once you start taking amphetamine of any kind, there's often a very slippery slope and it doesn't take you to anywhere good.

Atomoxetine does work relatively well for some (though often in combination with another SSRI/NRI etc), and isn't addictive. Your NHS doc would usually try you on it first, before considering more addictive/hardcore options, but it really depends on how you present and how severe your symptoms appear. A private doc - well, they're seemingly not as well regulated and many would argue more interested in ££ and less interested in actually helping you find a long term solution. They usually just jump straight to amphetamines, and that's probably what patients coming to them expect.

My NHS doc didn't bother starting me on atomoxetine largely because I do present with very visible physical symptoms, restlessness, hyperactivity etc. I think I would like to try it (long term) though, even though I know it's inferior, just because the tendency to binge on stimulants is often overwhelmingly strong and not something you can easily forget or stop/control by yourself.

Thank you for that. to be honest, my number one option would have been daily sublingual selegiline as it primarily works on dopamine/phenylethylamine, raising the background level of these neurotransmitters in a sustainable manner. The problem is, it seems quite difficult to get hold of the drug especially from the doctor, meaning that I would have to probably go to some dodgy website or have to search very hard to find a legitimate supplier.

 

[CFC]

Just picked up on something which is relevant to both our reactions to caffeine and our approach to work/ability to focus. this factor is chronic stress/anxiety. apparently, caffeine acts as a chemical stressor through it’s release of cortisol and adrenaline secondary to adenosine receptor antagonism. in this respect, it’s no different to facing a serious threat real or perceived. for someone who is too relaxed, caffeine could provide the additional kick/sense of healthy arousal/worry they need to get moving. unfortunately, whilst I and many others are often lethargic especially when having to concentrate, we are also surrounded by Constant stress and studying/focusing is one of these major stresses. therefore, whilst caffeine wakes me up and that is very helpful, it likely tips my anxiety/stressed to the point of cognitive impairment and I’ve definitely felt this on many occasions.
I’m not sure if what people say is true regarding most humans having much more stress nowadays. Life in the past was brutal and incredibly stressful. maybe we have become a little less resilient to stress, but I think in reality, we’ve just become much more aware of the health impact of chronic stress. One of the biggest impacts of chronic stresses on mental health and especially cognitive performance. given that work is becoming increasingly mental or at least more people are doing office type work, The effects of chronic stress are more visible. I wonder if this is why cases of ADHD, depression and anxiety seem to have increased significantly. likewise, I wonder if this is why caffeine seems to have been associated with early advancements in European society such as the enlightenment period. perhaps caffeine helped people work harder/longer those days when work was simple or physical. however, given that more of us have to use our brain in more complex ways for work, on a daily basis, it may be that caffeine is doing more harm than good for many.

I don't think ADHD is a problem or even a disorder in itself, it's a solution to various family or group issues where our unique talents and abilities were valued and needed, and evidently conferred a survival advantage to communities whose members expressed relevant genes.

The problem is none of us have had the time to evolve to our radically changed social circumstances over the last 10,000 years. In effect, modern society is dysfunctional relative to the genetic populations it carries. And this dysfunction is likely experienced most acutely by neurodiverse people because the system humans have built tends to suit majority and not minority needs and personality clusters. Even so, as you say, depression and anxiety are experienced by huge numbers of people for whom modern society and lifestyle is a terribly 'unnatural' fit.

 

[CFC]

Thank you for that. to be honest, my number one option would have been daily sublingual selegiline as it primarily works on dopamine/phenylethylamine, raising the background level of these neurotransmitters in a sustainable manner. The problem is, it seems quite difficult to get hold of the drug especially from the doctor, meaning that I would have to probably go to some dodgy website or have to search very hard to find a legitimate supplier.

You could try/ask for moclobemide. I actually found it fairly effective, despite it seemingly having only a minor effect on DA neurotransmission. I just couldn't sleep on it, and in any case was offered ADHD meds shortly after starting, so stopped and switched. I have considered going back and trying it again though, and taking my last dose earlier in the day to permit better sleep.

 

[Neuroprotection]

I don't think ADHD is a problem or even a disorder in itself, it's a solution to various family or group issues where our unique talents and abilities were valued and needed, and evidently conferred a survival advantage to communities whose members expressed relevant genes.

The problem is none of us have had the time to evolve to our radically changed social circumstances over the last 10,000 years. In effect, modern society is dysfunctional relative to the genetic populations it carries. And this dysfunction is likely experienced most acutely by neurodiverse people because the system humans have built tends to suit majority and not minority needs and personality clusters. Even so, as you say, depression and anxiety are experienced by huge numbers of people for whom modern society and lifestyle is a terribly 'unnatural' fit.

So true. The temporary removal of certain social stress e.G. Family problems has helped greatly in my academic performance in the past. likewise, not doing any mental work and not having to use my brain in the way that modern society demands generally makes me much happier and able to cope with life. in the case of The COVID-19 lockdown where I had no work to do and there was no social stress, I was often happier than I have ever been in my entire life. I was one of the few people Who seem to be okay doing pretty much nothing, whilst others around me were driven crazy with agitation having nothing productive to do and saying that life is boring when not working hard.

 

[Neuroprotection]

You could try/ask for moclobemide. I actually found it fairly effective, despite it seemingly having only a minor effect on DA neurotransmission. I just couldn't sleep on it, and in any case was offered ADHD meds shortly after starting, so stopped and switched. I have considered going back and trying it again though, and taking my last dose earlier in the day to permit better sleep.

Thank you. Will definitely look into that. it sounds promising.

 

[Neuroprotection]

You could try/ask for moclobemide. I actually found it fairly effective, despite it seemingly having only a minor effect on DA neurotransmission. I just couldn't sleep on it, and in any case was offered ADHD meds shortly after starting, so stopped and switched. I have considered going back and trying it again though, and taking my last dose earlier in the day to permit better sleep.

Moclobemide might actually have significant effects on dopamine transmission, because MAOA which it selectively and reversibly inhibits is the main enzyme for dopamine degradation. The idea that MAOB is the main dopamine metabolising enzyme is apparently controversial. thanks again anyway for suggesting this. I now remember coming across a post on reddit where a guy claimed to have tried most Nootropics to help him to work and couldn’t get anything out of them. he is then prescribed Moclobemide which doesn’t improve his memory at all, but gives him the well-being and energy/motivation needed to get his life together and be productive.

 

[Neuroprotection]

an interesting thought just crossed my mind. I wonder why no plants or fungy containing stimulant drugs have been naturally found in Europe/The colder parts of the northern hemisphere. I would’ve imagined that unlike people in the Middle East/Asia where stimulant plants are found, and where the Sun is often out, people in the colder darker regions of the world might have benefited more from a stimulant.

 

[Tranced]

I don't think ADHD is a problem or even a disorder in itself, it's a solution to various family or group issues where our unique talents and abilities were valued and needed, and evidently conferred a survival advantage to communities whose members expressed relevant genes.

The problem is none of us have had the time to evolve to our radically changed social circumstances over the last 10,000 years. In effect, modern society is dysfunctional relative to the genetic populations it carries. And this dysfunction is likely experienced most acutely by neurodiverse people because the system humans have built tends to suit majority and not minority needs and personality clusters. Even so, as you say, depression and anxiety are experienced by huge numbers of people for whom modern society and lifestyle is a terribly 'unnatural' fit.

My friends sometimes call me a "clever spacker". I don't disagree.

 

[Tranced]

I once took a gram of caffeine thinking it was speed and was up for 24 hours absolutely wired. It is totally a drug.

Weirdly I've tried to replicate this with coffee and it absolutely does not work. I think the processing of coffee or perhaps the form of caffeine (I don't know much regarding this but a bit like HCL vs. HBR, or or different isomers etc) completely effects how drug like it is.

@CFC Infact, I'm sure I heard you mention a stronger type of caffeine once.

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

an interesting thought just crossed my mind. I wonder why no plants or fungy containing stimulant drugs have been naturally found in Europe/The colder parts of the northern hemisphere. I would’ve imagined that unlike people in the Middle East/Asia where stimulant plants are found, and where the Sun is often out, people in the colder darker regions of the world might have benefited more from a stimulant.

p. semilanceata produces phenethylamine (PEA). Amounts are so minuscule that they don't really matter but the route is there, if only any fungi evolved to produce exclusively PEA in huge amounts so that it would be reasonable option.

 

[Tranced]

p. semilanceata produces phenethylamine (PEA). Amounts are so minuscule that they don't really matter but the route is there, if only any fungi evolved to produce exclusively PEA in huge amounts so that it would be reasonable option.

I love saying the word semilanceata out loud. Such a beautiful word.

They are very interesting mushrooms, especially given their differing chemical composition contrasted to cubensis.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

an interesting thought just crossed my mind. I wonder why no plants or fungy containing stimulant drugs have been naturally found in Europe/The colder parts of the northern hemisphere. I would’ve imagined that unlike people in the Middle East/Asia where stimulant plants are found, and where the Sun is often out, people in the colder darker regions of the world might have benefited more from a stimulant.

Ephedras grow in Europe. Maybe not as strong as Asian ones but still can work made as a strong tea.

 

[Tranced]

Ephedras grow in Europe. Maybe not as strong as Asian ones but still can work made as a strong tea.

What what? What's in them, and is it viable? Why haven;t I heard of this before!

There is a stimulant that grows in Europe, that you can put in a tea?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I once took a gram of caffeine thinking it was speed and was up for 24 hours absolutely wired. It is totally a drug.

Weirdly I've tried to replicate this with coffee and it absolutely does not work. I think the processing of coffee or perhaps the form of caffeine (I don't know much regarding this but a bit like HCL vs. HBR, or or different isomers etc) completely effects how drug like it is.

@CFC Infact, I'm sure I heard you mention a stronger type of caffeine once.

Caffeine is certainly a psychoactive drug and it’s easy to underestimate its power. it can be very good at elevating mood, but the problem is, it is often much more effective at elevating anxiety. additionally, it is quite unique compared to other drugs, even nicotine to which it is often compared as a mild stimulant. The amount of caffeine in Coffee varies widely and the type of coffee, processing, brewing method and consumption with or without food can affect the amount of caffeine in coffee and the rate of it’s absorption, respectively.
Just out of interest, which do you like better, caffeine or amphetamine?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I once took a gram of caffeine thinking it was speed and was up for 24 hours absolutely wired. It is totally a drug.

Weirdly I've tried to replicate this with coffee and it absolutely does not work. I think the processing of coffee or perhaps the form of caffeine (I don't know much regarding this but a bit like HCL vs. HBR, or or different isomers etc) completely effects how drug like it is.

@CFC Infact, I'm sure I heard you mention a stronger type of caffeine once.

Caffeine is a molecule with no variation, I think, so there is only one type. However, you might be thinking of caffeine citrate, which is used in energy drinks and medicines and enters the body extremely rapidly. this is how some energy drink Brands get away with claiming that their products contain just as much or even less caffeine than a cup of coffee but provide better energy. in reality, there is technically less caffeine in such products, but caffeine citrate will hit almost all at once making it much more potent.

In regards to coffee keeping you awake, that might depend on the brand/type you are using. Last night, I got almost no sleep after drinking a flask of really strong coffee earlier in the day. I knew something was wrong yesterday when I started feeling extremely wired and agitated but I thought it would wear off by 1AM. I managed to sleep about one hour in total but I could still feel the effects of the caffeine in the morning quite strongly. i’m hoping to crash out and sleep beautifully tonight. despite often destroying sleep Quality, there is a theory that very early morning caffeine consumption can lead to more reliable and deeper sleep at night due to adenosine receptor supersensitivity once caffeine has left the system.
Caffeine is a good energiser as I’ve said before, but unfortunately it does nothing for focus/attention and it makes stress worse.

 

[Neuroprotection]

p. semilanceata produces phenethylamine (PEA). Amounts are so minuscule that they don't really matter but the route is there, if only any fungi evolved to produce exclusively PEA in huge amounts so that it would be reasonable option.

Maybe some sort of crossbreeding/selective breeding or genetic engineering could do that. have you used phenylethylamine at psychoactive doses? if so, how does it compare to amphetamine? On the topic of mushrooms, wouldn’t it be interesting if a mushroom could produce large amounts of dextroamphetamine!

 

[Pissed_and_messed]

I have used PEA in cocoa along with MAO-b-i, like rhodiola rosea or black pepper.

It can get you quite high, it actually produces easily euphoric couchlock.

MAO-a-i and different methylxantines in cocoa definitely modulated the experience quite a lot. Never have done pure PEA.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

What what? What's in them, and is it viable? Why haven;t I heard of this before!

There is a stimulant that grows in Europe, that you can put in a tea?

Ephedra minor and I couple more (I know one at least) are present in Europe that have some ephedrine.
Ephedra minor and other too is quiet easy to find in Mediteran. I think other is Ephedra sinica or something like that.

They contain a lot less ephedrine than kind grown in China and green tea is probably more potent unless you make it from huge amount. But you can probably be lucky enough to find potent enough. Variations between species and locations where they grow are probably reason why it isn't used traditionally as even strongest is at least few times less potent than one from China.
Main reason why I pick up some when I find it is that it makes for a really tasty tea.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

O yeah, they usually contain ephedrine and related chemicals like in Ephedra major, but a lot less.

 

[Neuroprotection]

O yeah, they usually contain ephedrine and related chemicals like in Ephedra major, but a lot less.

How does ephedrine feel as a stimulant? if you’ve ever tried it on its own without caffeine, could you describe how it feels in comparison? for a long time, I’ve tried to research how exactly ephedrine makes a person feel but all experiences I come across involve quite a large dose of caffeine being Co-administered.