Bupe Buprenorphine Withdrawals

[qwe]

Wed morning: 2mg, Teusday: 10mg, Monday and prior: ~6mg

so it's about T+50h from my last subox dose. i tried some poppies, i felt it a bit (enough to kill withdrawal). since you can't tell dose amount well with poppies (especially when you have no grinder and no stove...) i don't know if i took a lot and some was blocked or i took a little and none was blocked

basically, from others experiences, i am wondering how much has cleared out, and whether i can take this vicodin and oxy without wasting it. can't make more tea atm (cheaper and easier to get so normally i'd just use the tea if it might not work; i never come across real opiates on the black market anymore so i'd really hate to waste what little i acquired for my opiate vacation)

think popping some vics would be too much of a waste right now? caveat, i ate tagamet already, meaning i assume waiting more time will not necessarily mean a lot more bupe will get out of my body since the metabolism has already been slowed. damn stove. damn grinder.

if the half-life is 36h i assume i have around 2mg in me

 

[qwe]

alright i feel it..

missed this a lot. technology needs to kill tolerance/dependence. it's only a technical matter, biotech. i want my gut muscles to always be relaxed like this (even the nonconscious ones) so my body is relaxed, it feels so much healthier; opiates don't take your wits like alcohol, i wouldn't mind an entire society hooked on em (of course there'd always be many exceptions if a culture accepted opioids as much as alcohol). legalize: cant wait for the future

 

[edarrin]

[QUOTEWhat sorts of brain changes are you talking about? I am genuinely interested. And there is no question about suboxone causing withdrawal. It isn't the prior opiate causing W/D it's the bupe. The physical dependence is transferred from the prior drug to bupe.][/QUOTE]

This isof great interest to e as well. I spoke to a doc about it and he said maybe partial restoration of normal dopamine receptor size/shape/number as well as potential partial restoration of the endogenous opiate system. That's the best case scenario as far as I know.

If anyone has any info on brain recovery with bup please enlighten us

I have tapered off a heroin/diladid habbit 3 or 4 times using 1 8mg tablet cut up and used over 7 days starting at 2mg and ending with .25. . My experience was that it sort of side-stepped the major acute physical withdrawal but left me with a case of PAWS that was incredible. Needless to say I didn't last long. 19 days was the longest.


Anyway I have never needed a huge dose to stop w/d. I have 1 8mg sub and some bup from overseas that (Temgesic) that is .2mg/tablet. I have 50 of those.

My plan is to taper as low as possible on the hydromorhone and start at 2mg. The first day seems to always suck while my body gets used to the partial agonist but by day 2 I usually feel fine. Anyway I will taper down the same as before
Day 1 2mg
Day 2 2mg
Day 3 1mg
day 4 1mg
Day 5 .5mg
Day 6 .5mg
Day 8 .25mg
day 8 .25mg

Then take the .2mg Temgesic and maybe split the last 10 of those to finish with .1mg/day.

That will be a total of approx. 2 months on the bup hopping off at .1mg. I don't think it can be any easier than that I don't think. I have clonidine,Zopiclone, and Tramadol if needed. If that doesn't work I guess I'll have to use maintenance

 

[DustnRoses]

I am currently at 32 hours since my last time taking any suboxone, and I feel fine...am I in the clear? Or can it take longer for the withdrawals to onset? I've been using one 8mg pill for about 8 days now, and have around 2-3 mg's left (I think, it's hard to gauge, as it's just a little chunk). So I tapered from about 1.5 mg on day one down to .5 - 1mg...I think....again, it's hard to tell. I just took off a smaller piece each day.

 

[DustnRoses]

Does anyone know how long it takes for the withdrawals to start? I know it's relative to your dose, and has a half life of 36 hours or so, but is there a certain time frame that withdrawals will definitely kick in?

 

[morphinanymous]

I ate some shitttttttttty fucking rolls from down south, that were what I believe to be pressed DXM the first time i went into Sub w/ds last year and whatever was in them intensified my wd's to the point where I thought I was dying, obviously thats not the case here. I personally hate sub wd's but my oral dose is 32mg although ive tapered down to 16-20mg oral and have been iv'ing 4mg 2-4 times (usually 2) a day for the past 4-5 days tried mixing with antihistamines today, but anywho I PERSONALLY THINK SUB WD's blow I'm almost more terrified of them than other opiates, but I honestly think its because of my experience with those shitty press pills I ate that caused me to fear them so.

As a whole though, I have seen people kick bupe easy (especially on low oral doses), for me however it is a terrible fearful experience. Just be careful. I've used lortabs to come off because they are so weak, don't get me high, but kill pain and keep the wd's away. I have also heard Ultram (tramadadol) works really well and isnt a full blown opiate.

Also I've gone 4 days with very minor wd's from subs, and it has taken 6 to 7 days for them to kick in fully.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

missed this a lot. technology needs to kill tolerance/dependence. it's only a technical matter, biotech.

...

legalize: cant wait for the future

Qwe: Or, you can't wait for the past.

Drugs weren't illegal before the late 1800's to early 1900's.

Anyways, you are also right regarding tolerance and dependence, it is a technical matter.

The physical tolerance spike associated with continued dosing of full agonist opiates is associated with the mu subtype 2 opioid receptor.

If there was a way to activate the mu subtype 1 opioid receptor, and completely leave the mu subtype 2 opioid receptor un-agonized, you would be able to have an opiate high without the crazy tolerance associated with drugs like heroin.

However, is this possible? I'm not sure. If it is, opiate addiction may eventually become an acceptable societal trait, just like alcohol or tobacco addiction. However, I think we're already heading in the area of opiate addiction acceptability in society, especially with Suboxone being a wide spread success.

However, the psychological addiction of opiates will still be there. This is the reason why people can go through the entire acute heroin WD, and later still relapse.

Even when I had mild WD symptoms, it was so psychologically agonizing to someone like me, that I still relapsed and bought more heroin.

The issue of opiate addiction will likely never stop, due to psychological addiction.

Does anyone know how long it takes for the withdrawals to start? I know it's relative to your dose, and has a half life of 36 hours or so, but is there a certain time frame that withdrawals will definitely kick in?

It's also dependent on ROA too.

For me, I enter buprenorphine withdrawal about 12 to 24 hours after my dose has started to wear off. More like 12 hours for me, but 24 hours for you all (who are using sublingually.)

I ate some shitttttttttty fucking rolls from down south, that were what I believe to be pressed DXM the first time i went into Sub w/ds last year and whatever was in them intensified my wd's to the point where I thought I was dying, obviously thats not the case here.

To be honest, often amphetamines will make opiate WD worse (increase in BP, etc), so I would guess (only because I've never heard of DXM being in a roll?) that meth was pressed into the roll instead of MDMA.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

The Steps of Heroin Addiction and Recovery

If anyone has any info on brain recovery with bup please enlighten us

I'll try to explain this in a way so everyone can understand what's going on in their brains.

Concepts: the brain, mu opioid receptors, heroin, buprenorphine, endogenous endorphins, intoxication, sobriety.

I'll kind of do a step-by-step process so you all can understand what's going on in each step.

Step 0: Before Opiates

Before you started using opiates, you had a brain. (You still have a brain, that's supposed to be a joke about getting an opiate addiction being a bad decision ). Basically, you have endogenous (from within your own body/brain - not from an external source) endorphins. A quote from the wiki link above;

Endorphins are endogenous opioid polypeptide compounds. They are produced by the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus in vertebrates during exercise,[1] excitement, pain, consumption of spicy food and orgasm,[2][3] and they resemble the opiates in their abilities to produce analgesia and a feeling of well-being.

Step 1: Using Opiates

I am going to use heroin as an example, but any full agonist opiate will do, buprenorphine could also be your "opiate of choice/abuse" but let's pretend we didn't get hooked on Suboxone, but another opiate.

You find out opiates cause a euphoric high. This you find to be true. You are elated! You are intoxicated, and you enjoy the intoxicating high. You're excited to have discovered such a euphoric compound, as most people are.

Your mu-opioid receptors are agonized by heroin and other full agonist opiates (assume you got addicted to heroin, so I don't have to keep typing "and other full agonist opiates"). The mu-opioid receptor is a g-coupled protein receptor, and it releases enzymes when activated.

The mu-opioid receptor is also activated by your endogenous endorphins, but for shorter periods of time (example: an orgasm doesn't last 8 hours like a good dose of snorted heroin would - could you imagine an 8 hour long orgasm? ). Heroin, instead, activates the mu-opioid receptor for a long time.

After you are done with your first heroin experience, you likely are experiencing the pleasant after-glow, similar to a post-orgasm after-glow. Your brain associates pleasure during, and after, the heroin experience, due to the intoxicating high, and the pleasant after-glow.

Yes, I am aware some of you freaks (just kidding, I'm the true freak here ) have "hangovers" from single experiences of opiate use, though I won't get into this here. From what I have heard subjective report wise, more people experience the after-glow than the hangover from a single opiate use experience.

Step 2: Using Opiates Again, and Again...

If your short term memory is intact, you will remember your opiate experience as pleasurable. Even if you were one of those few who had a "hangover" from your first opiate experience, you will still remember how good you felt while still experiencing the acute effects. So obviously, you will be intrigued to repeat this most pleasant experience.

You use again. The high is almost as good, or just as good as before. You may have upped the dose this time, in order to be higher (especially if you weren't nodding off and drooling all over yourself the first time around). You may have taken less, if you were a bit too intoxicated for your liking.

Assuming you become "hooked" on this positive experience (for a variety of possible reasons), you do this again, and again. Your brain will begin changing after the first few experiences if you continue to use back to back days. I can't say for sure when these changes will begin, it may vary per individual.

Step 3: Up-Regulation

I'll paint this picture as simply as I can. Imagine your brain. That might be hard for some of you, your brain is more complex than anyone alive will ever know (for our generation). Imagine your mu-opioid receptors.

Pretend your mu-opioid receptors are plants in a garden. Using opiates, or heroin, will tend the garden in a sense; figuratively watering, administering sunlight, removing weeds, and planting seeds for new mu-opioid receptors.

Effectively, prolonged opiate use/exposure will promote the growth of new mu-opiate receptors. Studies have shown this to be true in primates, I'm not sure if there are studies on humans that reflect similar results, but for all intensive purposes this is a very likely and most assuredly true.

You may go days, weeks, months, or years continuing using opiates, possibly turning into abuse. You may grow many, many more mu-opioid receptors than are absolutely necessary. Remember endogenous endorphins? They only need as many mu-opioid receptors as you already were born with to work correctly. That is the theory, there may be people who have less mu-opioid receptors than the average populous but let's pretend those people are few and far between.

Eventually, you will go without opiates, either voluntarily or involuntarily. When the opiates aren't making you high, your brain is activated only by endorphins as opiates are no longer in the way. However, your body doesn't know to use your endorphins anymore (if you prolonged your use long enough), as the opiates seemingly took over for the endorphins.

Even if all of your endorphins were still there and ready for action, they will only cover a small percentage of your mu-opioid receptors. They may cover all mu-opioid receptors in the beginning at Stage 0, but by Stage 3, they may only cover, say 10% of your mu-opioid receptors.

This will render the user feeling sluggish, tired, agitated, demotivated. It is unpleasant, but it is only the beginning.

Stage 4: Withdrawal

Your dealer didn't call you back, or he's out, or he skipped town. That, or you ran out of money, or are in a place where your dealer can't get to you.

What happens now, is that all the opiates are being fully metabolized out of your system. Your body fully expects a dose of opiates to counteract the comedown. When your body has been trained to expect drugs, your body will protect itself against an overdose. This happens (in the case of opiates and other CNS depressants) by your body's heart rate, blood pressure, etc. increasing.

Upon not receiving any opiates, you will enter withdrawal, as your body is saying to your mind "hey, I'm expecting that heroin...want to give it to me yet?" - as much as you'd like to de-activate this trained response which prevents you from overdosing (if your body didn't learn this, tolerance would kill people), you cannot.

Enter withdrawal.

You all know the horrible withdrawal syndrome, so I won't go too far into this. However, since your body is still prepared for a dose, the raised blood pressure will account for some nasty withdrawal symptoms; such as hot/cold flashes. Ever wonder why you have those nasty moments where you feel like no amount of heat/clothing/bed covers will make you warm enough, and then later, no amount of ice, air conditioning, or lack of clothing/bed covers will allow you to feel less hot? Your blood pressure is unnaturally high.

When people experience panic attacks, and their blood pressure is increased, they may experience the same symptoms.

This can be partially avoided by using other CNS depressants, but obviously the entire withdrawal syndrome of opiates is not going to be explained by increased blood pressure. This is why benzodiazepines, alcohol, and other CNS depressants cannot make you feel "normal", unless you are lucky, or are not that far into opiate addiction.

Stage 5: Suboxone-based ORT Recovery

Eventually, the withdrawal syndrome may seem unforgivably harsh and relentless. Like myself, you may have discovered going to a Suboxone doctor may help you. So, you make the call, book an appointment, and come in looking like utter hell, barely able to maintain just sitting there in the waiting room.

The receptionist comes out from the door, and calls your name. You run as quickly as you can to the room to begin your treatment.

They ask you a series of questions, take your blood pressure and heart rate.

The doctor will write a prescription for Suboxone, you fill the prescription and you come back with it. The doctor monitors you taking your first dose, so as to be prepared in the event of adverse reactions, including but not limited to precipitated withdrawal, or a drug allergy.

Let's assume you did not experience precipitated withdrawal or a drug allergy (if you did - I am sure you are aware why this happened). About 20-30 minutes after your first sublingual dose of Suboxone, you begin to feel significantly better, to the point where you are still in withdrawal, but somehow, you are not seemingly in hell.

After telling the doctor/receptionist how thankful you are that someone finally helped you out for the very first time, you go home with your Suboxone.

Step 6: Down-Regulation

Suboxone is a partial agonist, so it's not going to raise your opiate tolerance or "grow" mu-opioid receptors to the same degree that heroin or other full agonist opiates will.

Suboxone allows you to endure the opiate withdrawal, so that down-regulation (the opposite of up-regulation) will occur. Over time, your extra mu-opioid receptors will "go away" (I don't know if they shrink, decay, or become inactivate-able, I'm not sure).

As you keep using Suboxone, and not other opiates, the down-regulation will allow you to not be in severe acute withdrawal. This is why, though you may have some light withdrawal symptoms when you wake up before you take Suboxone, it is SO much better than the initial acute heroin withdrawal that had you running like a mad hatter to the Suboxone doctor in the first place.

Eventually, as the down-regulation continues, your endogenous endorphins are able to cover more and more mu-opioid receptors. This allows the small things in life (exercise, excitement, spicy foods, and orgasm, etc.) to become enjoyable again for you.

Thus concludes the cycle. Obviously Step 7 would be tapering off of Suboxone and eventual sobriety, but I left that out, as not all of us are going to be able to go back to the way we were, depending on many factors (namely, length/depth of opiate abuse). It should be noted though that I believe many people who didn't heavily abuse heroin for more than 5 years should be able to taper off of Suboxone and should be able to enjoy the small things in life again.

I believe it is only a very long, very intense history of heroin/other potent full agonist opiate abuse which may render you unable to fully down-regulate back to Step 0.

This is not all "proof" but this is as well as I understand it.

I hope you all enjoyed this post, and I also hope it answered a lot of questions. Feel free to ask me more!

 

[WARDMAN3]

I always was curious about the precipitated withdrawals. Does dosage and duration of usage of one's opiate affect the withdrawals?? If one uses moderate dosages of oxy for a week or 2 and switches over to suboxone too soon, is the precipated WD less than if someone had a hardcore herion habit? If after 18 hours you are not feeling any WD, should one still take the suboxone? When I went on it in January to clean up, I waited 15 hours and had no issues. I was taking 40-80 mgs of oxy/hydro on and off for a few years.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I always was curious about the precipitated withdrawals. Does dosage and duration of usage of one's opiate affect the withdrawals?? If one uses moderate dosages of oxy for a week or 2 and switches over to suboxone too soon, is the precipated WD less than if someone had a hardcore herion habit? If after 18 hours you are not feeling any WD, should one still take the suboxone? When I went on it in January to clean up, I waited 15 hours and had no issues. I was taking 40-80 mgs of oxy/hydro on and off for a few years.

Regular WD, of any amount, will suck regardless, and will probably effect the intensity of the precipitated WD. Yeah. However, instantly being propelled into WD - probably worse than regular WD. I don't know, never experienced it myself.

But yes I am sure the degree of use has to do with it for sure.

 

[WARDMAN3]

Thanks Captain. But what if somoene has, let's say., and 80mg oxy habit and they cut down to like 30 or 40 mgs for 2 days. They may feel that they are in withdrawal but yet, they have opiates in their system. Will the use of suboxone send them in to precipitated withdrawal because they have opiates in their system? Or will the suboxone help since they are having withdrawal from the decrease in dosage?

 

[DustnRoses]

From what I've read and heard, if someone is in withdrawal and they use opiates, they're setting themselves back to step one basically. But how true is that? Like if you use just a tiny bit after 1-2 days of no use, are you really back to square one? Or is it just alleviating your symptoms temporarily, and when they do come back, your tolerance is a little lower, so the WD's will be slightly less severe?

I'm curious because I've been using bupe now for almost 2 weeks, one 8mg pill...I have about 1.5 mg left, and it's been 24 hours since last dose (about .2) and I want to have a tiny bump right now (.1-.2) but don't want to set myself back....I've been trying to go 36-48 hours between doses the last couple days, but this is going to be a long day, so I might need the tiny boost...

 

[morphinanymous]

yes Cptn H. we couldn't figure out whether it was meth or dxm where. There were TONS of dxm pressies being sold as rolls down south, they were huge, along with ketamine cut with dxm . I completely agree that using meth or amphetamines in general makes any opiate withdrawal ALOT worse. I think it just makes especially bupe wd's the watering eyes, restroom use, and goosebumps, and hot/cold flashes come on my way back from Further in VA back to SC someone stole my sub script and I ate an adderall and it made the onset that much faster. I just can't believe that no one has heard of dxm being pressed into a roll it was quite common where I am from originally, for a while.

Then again I'm not one of those who KNOWS their opinion is right. I could be completely off base. Let's not get off topic though.

Also, Cptn. you answered a question I've been thinking since I switched to IV instead of sublingual, I didn't know if it was just me but my WD's come on within 12 hours (usually requiring 4mg shots 2-4 times daily), but it is a hell of a lot better than waking up and taking 4 of those nasty fuckers. God that taste, even when I get it in my throat after I boot is almost unbearable, in fact it is.

 

[needlejuice]

yes Cptn H. we couldn't figure out whether it was meth or dxm where. There were TONS of dxm pressies being sold as rolls down south, they were huge, along with ketamine cut with dxm . I completely agree that using meth or amphetamines in general makes any opiate withdrawal ALOT worse. I think it just makes especially bupe wd's the watering eyes, restroom use, and goosebumps, and hot/cold flashes come on my way back from Further in VA back to SC someone stole my sub script and I ate an adderall and it made the onset that much faster. I just can't believe that no one has heard of dxm being pressed into a roll it was quite common where I am from originally, for a while.

Then again I'm not one of those who KNOWS their opinion is right. I could be completely off base. Let's not get off topic though.

Also, Cptn. you answered a question I've been thinking since I switched to IV instead of sublingual, I didn't know if it was just me but my WD's come on within 12 hours (usually requiring 4mg shots 2-4 times daily), but it is a hell of a lot better than waking up and taking 4 of those nasty fuckers. God that taste, even when I get it in my throat after I boot is almost unbearable, in fact it is.

dont shoot so much suboxone, ur just wasting it. when i was on 16mg bupe a day sublingual i could bang 1mg maybe 2mg and be straight all day

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Thanks Captain. But what if somoene has, let's say., and 80mg oxy habit and they cut down to like 30 or 40 mgs for 2 days. They may feel that they are in withdrawal but yet, they have opiates in their system. Will the use of suboxone send them in to precipitated withdrawal because they have opiates in their system? Or will the suboxone help since they are having withdrawal from the decrease in dosage?

You have to be in full withdrawal to take Suboxone. If you have opiates in your system, taking Suboxone will put you into precipitated withdrawal.

Even if 10mg of oxycodone just makes your original WD slightly better, you still have opiates in your system, and can still go into precipitated WD.

yes Cptn H. we couldn't figure out whether it was meth or dxm where. There were TONS of dxm pressies being sold as rolls down south, they were huge, along with ketamine cut with dxm . I completely agree that using meth or amphetamines in general makes any opiate withdrawal ALOT worse. I think it just makes especially bupe wd's the watering eyes, restroom use, and goosebumps, and hot/cold flashes come on my way back from Further in VA back to SC someone stole my sub script and I ate an adderall and it made the onset that much faster. I just can't believe that no one has heard of dxm being pressed into a roll it was quite common where I am from originally, for a while.

Then again I'm not one of those who KNOWS their opinion is right. I could be completely off base. Let's not get off topic though.

Also, Cptn. you answered a question I've been thinking since I switched to IV instead of sublingual, I didn't know if it was just me but my WD's come on within 12 hours (usually requiring 4mg shots 2-4 times daily), but it is a hell of a lot better than waking up and taking 4 of those nasty fuckers. God that taste, even when I get it in my throat after I boot is almost unbearable, in fact it is.

I'm sorry to hear someone stole your Suboxone prescription! That's horrible.

4mg IV is a considerably large dose, you might try cutting back to 2mg shots and see if there's much of a difference.

I agree, the sublingual taste is just awful... I have vomited before it got the time to fully dissolve, that can be very frustrating.

 

[DustnRoses]

I know I've asked this before but I am really curious, is there a set time that withdrawals will definitely kick in when dealing with bupe? My dose is around .3mg every 24-36 hours, and it's been 36 hours exactly since my last dose and I feel completely fine. I'm tempted to do some right now, but if I've gone this long without the withdrawals onsetting yet, am I better off just stopping now?

 

[Georgie25]

Idk why people always complain about the suboxone taste. I never even taste it when I take it every morning. If you do it right and place it under your tongue, don't swallow, and keep your mouth completely shut for about 10 minutes then all the sub will have been dissolved so you shouldn't even be tasting it.

 

[needlejuice]

i used to complain about the taste of suboxone before i put a subutex under my tounge. ughh its like sour chalk.

i shoot about 1-2mg a day and it takes me 48 hours before any kind of withdrawal syndrome and another day for it to get real bad.

 

[kelliann22]

This is MY EXPERIENCE with Sub...don't know if it will help anyone, but it worked for me. First, I didn't use nearly as much as my Dr. perscribed, second, I only used it for my shorter half life opiates. (Pod Tea & H) So first I was on H & I took 1 (8mg) Sub a day my two days off it, then 1/2 a pill for another 6 days, and that was it. Sub got me through the H sickness, but I wasn't on it long enough for my body to get sick when I stopped it.
BUT I had no support & I was shortly using again...from there I went on methadone FOR TWO YEARS, and trying to come off that WAS HELL and for along time due to such a long half life...so I started drinking pod tea...but instead of weaning myself, I started using more & more tea. So I decided to use Sub again...I started using 2/day. (8mgs again) The 2nd day I took 1.5, then 1 and so on. About 30 hours ago I took 1/2 of one, and today nothing. The tea wd symtoms are gone, and again, my body isn't dependant on Sub yet...which imo is the way to go. If you let your body become dependant on it for months, you will eventually have to kick. Try using it JUST for the wd's from your Op of choice, tapering quickly, and see how it works for you...it seems to rock for me. However, I have a ton of support groups lined up as well as the program we have in the substance abuse housing I live in... I need ongoing help to remind me daily not to pick up again.
I am a little emotional right now, but I don't have kicking legs, cramps, shits, or any of that...at least not yet. I do have some Immodium, Lorazapam, and Requip, incase I need them...but not yet. I am so excited... I have spent allot of time thinking how great it would be to face a day without opiates, and I'm really close. God bless Suboxone...

 

[oneswtwld]

I have spent allot of time thinking how great it would be to face a day without opiates, and I'm really close. God bless Suboxone...

Much respect and well wishes to you!!!

I am in a similar boat. I was doin h, dillies and oxy for a couple years, quit cold turkey... after a few months of still feeling like shit I decided to switch to subs...

immediate help... then I wanted to get off so I thought I'd taper and switch to mild pods and tea....
eayh... theres nothing "mild" about an opiate addict's opiate habits...right?


so yeah... here I am after using all my 2lbs of pods.... yeah... somewhat of a binge...

and I have felt like absoulte ass for a few days now.... how am I supposed to find a job like this? (rhetorical)


the first day of coming off the subs was so bad that I had to order the pods....

i still am not sure what it owuld have been like to come off the subs... didnt seem any different than the h