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Bupe Buprenorphine vs Vicodin questions

dimulants

Greenlighter
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
30
Hi, I have a cpl questions regarding buprenorphine vs other opiate/oids.


1.
Which standard dose is stronger, more powerful opioid out of the two, the dental dose vicodin or the detox dose bupe?
Reason for asking it is I felt nothing on vicodin, except nasuea and faintness/dizziness the first time. Does that mean opioid/ates in general won't have an effect on me moods wise? Is bupe an even milder opioid? I think the vic dose was 5mg.

2.
Why is buprenorphine in particular* touted as an antidepressant over other opioids? Is it really that different from the others?


(* except tramadol, but that seems to be due to its snri properties, and I don't need another snri, or anything to do with serotonin which is a toxic word to me).

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1. Vicodin (hydrocodone) is a full agonist opioid. Meaning in fits into opiate receptors perfectly like a lock and key. It's not the strongest opioid, stronger than say codeine or tramadol. But also 5 mg is not much of a dose. At higher doses (not much higher for opiate naive maybe 15-20 mgs) you should feel effects. However--some people naturally take to opiates/opioids from the start. For some it's an acquired taste. Others don't get what the fuss is all about.

Bupe (Subutex, suboxone) is a partial agonist. It "sort of" fits the receptor but not cleanly/perfectly. You get some of the effects but not the same euphoria as a full agonist. Completely opiate naive people can get a high from bupe. They also say it gives them a lift, energy, etc

2. I don't really know about bupe and antidepressant properties so I'll leave that to someone else. I do know methadone is known for antidepressant properties because it also acts as a (? NMDI ? Or one of those, I forget exactly and don't feel like looking it up. Can always google if you want)

In general, Vicodin is going to be a better pain killer and give you a better euphoric feeling than bupe. 5 mg isn't going to do much though. Also-- Opiate effects are subtle though. You feel energy at first, social, happy. It's not like rolling or being drunk or something that mind altering
 
1. Vicodin (hydrocodone) is a full agonist opioid. Meaning in fits into opiate receptors perfectly like a lock and key. It's not the strongest opioid, stronger than say codeine or tramadol. But also 5 mg is not much of a dose. At higher doses (not much higher for opiate naive maybe 15-20 mgs) you should feel effects. However--some people naturally take to opiates/opioids from the start. For some it's an acquired taste. Others don't get what the fuss is all about.

Bupe (Subutex, suboxone) is a partial agonist. It "sort of" fits the receptor but not cleanly/perfectly. You get some of the effects but not the same euphoria as a full agonist. Completely opiate naive people can get a high from bupe. They also say it gives them a lift, energy, etc

2. I don't really know about bupe and antidepressant properties so I'll leave that to someone else. I do know methadone is known for antidepressant properties because it also acts as a (? NMDI ? Or one of those, I forget exactly and don't feel like looking it up. Can always google if you want)

In general, Vicodin is going to be a better pain killer and give you a better euphoric feeling than bupe. 5 mg isn't going to do much though. Also-- Opiate effects are subtle though. You feel energy at first, social, happy. It's not like rolling or being drunk or something that mind altering


Interesting to hear that. Like that opiate effects are subtle, that's interesting given they're known as powerful drugs.
So if bupe gives some energy that already sounds different from what I'm used to hear about opiates, about being downers, hopefully that has something to do with its antidepressant effect, as opposed to just regular opiate effect on mood

It's also good to hear that 5mg is a low dose, cause I started getting worried that not even opiates would do anything for my dysphoric, anhedonic state. That gives me hope that a higher dose could, plus it's the only opiate I've tried. Hopefully a higher dose wouldn't just mean more nausea and drowsiness. Even if it wasn't viable long term it'd be way better than nothing, i could at least look back and say i managed to attain a pleasurable state at least one more time, not as with now many shrinks prefer you die depressed than try off label, many docs have their hands tied due to outdated science. Not even heroin withdrawals scare me, although their symptoms sure used to seem horrible before I became clinically depressed, but that's outside the average shrink's comfort zone.

Thing with bupe it only stands out in terms of studies backing its antidepressant properties. But when you search any opiate as an antidepressant it'll bring up users who swear by it, whether it's oxy, bupe or hydro, blurring the line, so I wanted to settle this before deciding, cause if all opiates and opioids are more or less the same I could simply go with the most convenient, no need in wasting time trying to find hard to come by bupe, but if it's really special it'd be worth the effort. Am thinking now since it's only a partial agonist, that if it is antidepressant due to being an opioid/ate and nothing else, then a full agonist would be more effective.
 
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If u have zero tolerance to opiates a tiny bit of bupe will annihilate u lol a little bit goes a long way. But as the poster above stated its a partial agonist so the opiate "magic" just isn't there. Vicodin can be more euphoric but the problem is, is that it has so much Tylenol in it. So repeatedly taking the doses needed to get high will eventually ruin your stomach lining and severely damage your liver. If u can get ahold of painkillers that don't have additives like Tylenol or ibuprofen that would be a much better bet. For example oxycontin, morphine, dilaudid etc. Good luck and by the way you should be afraid of opiate withdrawal's. An addiction is no fun at all. Be careful
 
If u have zero tolerance to opiates a tiny bit of bupe will annihilate u lol a little bit goes a long way. But as the poster above stated its a partial agonist so the opiate "magic" just isn't there. Vicodin can be more euphoric but the problem is, is that it has so much Tylenol in it. So repeatedly taking the doses needed to get high will eventually ruin your stomach lining and severely damage your liver. If u can get ahold of painkillers that don't have additives like Tylenol or ibuprofen that would be a much better bet. For example oxycontin, morphine, dilaudid etc. Good luck and by the way you should be afraid of opiate withdrawal's. An addiction is no fun at all. Be careful

Thanks bud. Yea, I suppose opium withdrawals should be scary, but seriously, living with anhedonia and other depressive symptoms long term is hell, that's why it doesn't scare me as much as it should. But addiction though scares me because that's about equivalent to severe depression in terms of totally ruining life, plus costs money and has physical effects so not a better option. So far though no drug has felt addictive since the effects weren't that overwhelming, including coke, alcohol, vicodin, xanax, thing with xanax is it only calms the nerves, doesn't do anything to lift spirit or energy, though what benzos do they do really good.

Sounds like Tylenol should be a deterrent for vicodin. Oxy and morphine scare me a bit as they seem very powerful. Like, I'm not after an overwhelming rush of euphoria as much as a specific antidepressant effect. Not looking to feel wasted, more like restored. Bupe has so many studies as an antidepressant that it kind of begs to be tried out, but not if it's merely a weaker version of opiates, it has to do something else to make it worthwhile. I wonder though if it's stronger than vicodin, in terms of average dosage, cause if it's just a weaker version of vicodin it might not be worthwhile, i could just try a higher dose of vicodin and see, btw if a higher dose worked well, i'd look into more pure opiates, though part of me wishes that I won't need an addictive drug to feel normal due to tolerance and loss of effectiveness, but the shrinks have nothing to offer. In an ideal world shrinks would test all types of substances to at least find a culprit. Now i have to do all this shit on my own with all its risk and hassles, hence it better be worthwhile.
 
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Good luck and by the way you should be afraid of opiate withdrawal's. An addiction is no fun at all. Be careful

That is the truth! I wish all the time you could just take these pills with no "monster" attached, like an ibuprofen or something.
 
If u didnt like Vicodin i doubt u will like bupe.vicodin is more recreational and bupe can be but its best for maintence .bupe is very strong due to the strong affinity with the opiate receptors and the long half life

one thing is that it is veeerryy hard to take a shit on bupe..imo its the worst of all opiates when it comes to constipation..with bupe less is more like .5 or 1mg would be a good starting dose and u will only get more negative side effects the more u take and it will block all opiates for a day or 2

..if your looking for euphoria bupe is decent..the only thing useful antidepressant wise is it last a long time and u do not redose thru the day.
 
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You would probably like oxycodone if you were to enjoy any opiate/opioid. You mentioned it being strong--it's actually only about 1.5x hydrocodone (what is in Vicodin). And it's less sedating than hydrocodone. A lot of opiate users seek the nod rather than the feel good energy. Oxy is probably the most energetic opioid.

Yes a lot of people find opiates to work as an antidepressant. Unfortunately it's not great long term as when the magic wears off you need them to feel normal. Opiate withdrawal comes with crushing depression on it's own. I can't imagine if one were predisposed to depression to begin with
 
If you have no tolerance bupe will fuck you up...

1mg bupe = 30mg hydrocodone
 
Bupe (Subutex, suboxone) is a partial agonist. It "sort of" fits the receptor but not cleanly/perfectly. You get some of the effects but not the same euphoria as a full agonist. Completely opiate naive people can get a high from bupe. They also say it gives them a lift, energy, etc
...Unless you take 4mg or under, then its a FULL agonist.
 
You would probably like oxycodone if you were to enjoy any opiate/opioid. You mentioned it being strong--it's actually only about 1.5x hydrocodone (what is in Vicodin). And it's less sedating than hydrocodone. A lot of opiate users seek the nod rather than the feel good energy. Oxy is probably the most energetic opioid.

Yes a lot of people find opiates to work as an antidepressant. Unfortunately it's not great long term as when the magic wears off you need them to feel normal. Opiate withdrawal comes with crushing depression on it's own. I can't imagine if one were predisposed to depression to begin with


Interesting reads. I'd heard of oxycontin as being powerful, thought it was like a step before dope. But I can look that up. Thought vicodin was among the weaker due to being somewhat widely prescribed, but what do i know there.

Good to know bupe's mostly about long half-life. I was suspecting that, but really hoped it would also have some unique chemical property. Kind of like tramadol, except now its snri properties makes it sound like just another snri plus opioid, so if snri didn't work on me it doesn't seem agood option. But maybe the long half life would give me a better idea.

Maybe I should brace myself for a bupe trip just to put it to rest. I've had nausea and stomach aches from depression and anxiety as is, which really kind of reminded me of what I'd read of heroin withdrawals, in that you just lie there and feel pure miserable, to the point empathy alone won't help. It's really sad the shrinks don't offer one compound that brightens mood even a bit, it's all the same. Even the latest depression treatment recommendations still dabble in serotonin reuptakers and variants. Wonder how many bona fide self treaters got drug charges, it's really the irony of life. But fuck, you can't live in this state, if not for yourself, you're not available for others either, meaning you are a burden to some extent. I've tried forcing myself to see life through non depressed eyes, it just doesn't work, so you withdraw. In fact comparing yourself to others while depressed is very self destructive, and probably unfair. Now if it's just laziness, it might be different. Well how do you know if it's laziness, being lazy means it's inconvenient to apply yourself, but with biochemical deficiencies it becomes downright painful. Worst is when you're not crazy and appear to have common sense, it's even worse in the sense that people's expectations are higher. So it seems death is a logical conclusion, which I believe it is in this state, as nothing pans out. But would be a pity if there were an effective treatment that's just not available yet, or not prescribed for political reasons. After all no matter how severe the symptoms, if treatment exists they're not as formidable. Thing is death can't be wished for as it's unknown, it's all about relief, but it doesn't take much to see that squandering life away in wait for death is a crass and demoralizing survival method. Thinking those who do commit active suicide may simply not see otherwise, but if you see otherwise it becomes rather off putting, yet passive suicide isn't exactly a good alternative, but at that point is the only option absent effective treatment.

So if bupe won't work, as in making me feel more present, then ketamine is one of the remaining candidates, coke, fortunately, not having done enough (given its short half life and high price which would've been a difficult treatment to sustain), means dopamine agonists/stimulants don't feel as hopeful anymore, alongside what else I've already tried. But I kind of know there is something out there, whether it exists today is the question. For example a couple times during adrenaline rushes, like I was at risk of losing a grip and falling, I did feel alive for a rare short moment, as in not depressed. The thing is though even if a compound increased adrenaline in the brain there's no way to tell if it increases it in a natural feeling way, or even in the right places in the brain. For example, one orgasm out of hundreds of meek ones, restored my self esteem for a moment, but whether taking a pill that raises the same hormones and neurotransmitters would do the same is not a guarantee. In fact snri were supposed to raise my noradrenaline levels but didn't do jack shit, never mind not target the right part. And good luck with getting real norepinephrine prescribed at a shrink, heck, you'd go on another sugar pill before even hearing that word, never mind other power compounds.
So hard drugs really are among the last options before I just rot and die, and I wont be the only statistic. Thanks for the input.
 
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...Unless you take 4mg or under, then its a FULL agonist.

Technically it's still a partial agonist. At small doses (I thought under 2 mg ; perhaps you are right and it's under 4 mg) bupe does not saturate all available opiate receptors. Thus leaving some open for norbuprenophine--which is a metabolite of buprenorphine--and which does act like a full agonist. It can only do this at low enough doses so that the receptors aren't saturated so that there are some open for the norbupe that results from metabolizing the bupe.

Which is why people who understand the drug say with bupe "less is more"


OP- I don't have experience with ketamine but I though it made one feel dissociated. Not exactly what you say you're looking for. I don't think bupe is your answer. If you are one of those people who opiates give that feeling that fill a void that's been there all their lives I say just from your posts you'd probably like oxycodone. 10-15 mgs for an opiate naive person usually have him feeling amazing.

However. It is short acting. Not the best for therapy. Have you researched methadone? It does have an antidepressant component.

And for some reason, reading your posts, I wonder if you couldn't benefit from a psychedelic type trip. Or something like a one time ibogaine treatment. It's said to really give one unique perspective on living
 
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However. It is short acting. Not the best for therapy. Have you researched methadone? It does have an antidepressant component.
I think all opiates have antidepressant properties, obviously. I think thats simply due to the fact that they all release dopamine and endorphins.

Any drug for that matter that makes u "feel good", is ultimately an antidepressant, right?
 
Technically it's still a partial agonist. At small doses (I thought under 2 mg ; perhaps you are right and it's under 4 mg) bupe does not saturate all available opiate receptors. Thus leaving some open for norbuprenophine--which is a metabolite of buprenorphine--and which does act like a full agonist. It can only do this at low enough doses so that the receptors aren't saturated so that there are some open for the norbupe that results from metabolizing the bupe.

Which is why people who understand the drug say with bupe "less is more"


OP- I don't have experience with ketamine but I though it made one feel dissociated. Not exactly what you say you're looking for. I don't think bupe is your answer. If you are one of those people who opiates give that feeling that fill a void that's been there all their lives I say just from your posts you'd probably like oxycodone. 10-15 mgs for an opiate naive person usually have him feeling amazing.

However. It is short acting. Not the best for therapy. Have you researched methadone? It does have an antidepressant component.

And for some reason, reading your posts, I wonder if you couldn't benefit from a psychedelic type trip. Or something like a one time ibogaine treatment. It's said to really give one unique perspective on living


Cool advice. I kind of wish I was a natural born junkie, in the sense I'd at least know what the void was. As I said, I don't like saying it but hey, the rare climax (which are usually underwhelming) seemed to fill the void in the brain, but was short acting. Another was a natural adrenaline kick, which didn't feel like a kick more like vitality, and was short acting, but these gave me the hope that no meds did. I wondered if something like sky diving would be for me, but don't think so. I felt dead on roller coasters even upside down, it was mostly physical sensations. Making this very tricky, and raising the odds that I'll die like this. If i knew how to induce a natural, real adrenaline kick, but it seems to require happening unpredictably to work. But dam, was it a relief for as quick as it was.

The thing with ketamine based on what's been written is that it seems to do what other antidepressants don't. In case you didn't know, ketamine is being studied as an antidepressant. The fact that it repairs brain connections sounds appealing, as well as acts on dopamine and glutamate, unlike ssri which work strictly on serotonin, making it sound as if it covers more ground than current antidepressants. But, there are those who don't get any benefit even from that, but at least they discovered something.

I've also thought of psychedelics, especially after reading up on them and that they've been used for depression. Not sure if insight is what I need though. I've thought and read quiet extensively, then in a snap, a short adrenaline rush does what 10 antidepressants didn't touch nor any kind of behavior training. It's more like with benzos and severe anxiety. Someone can try zoloft and CBT, but if it's severe, benzos may be more convincing that it's to do with low gaba pure and simple rather than simple thinking. I think since it isn't possible to think your way into severe anxiety or depression it isn't possible to think out of them either. So either they improve on their own, or require medication. I notice as I tick off distorted/irrational thoughts or perceptions one by one that while there's some sense of relief from finally not having to incorporate them into your personality/idenity, the mood remains depressed, reaffirming to me that it was biochemical to begin with, otherwise why think morbidly depressive thoughts. Growing up I liked doing what others liked, watching movies, having fun. These days I can spend hours on negative news and negative topics, like murder, and don't even enjoy it, it's more like they match how I feel, near the pit bottom on the pleasure scale, so you might as well bask in the gross in case it's temporary, but it isn't the most productive. Trying to focus on positive subjects feels like eating sand. It makes functioning socially very difficult, as you can't explain yourself that life plain sucks, and can't be blamed solely on something external. Glad I'm not violent otherwise I might've done something crazy, but constant inner torture isn't a real blessing either. I used to snap easily, then read up on depression and irritability and felt some consolation. But they don't give examples of that irritability, so I was still worried that I suffered from something worse. Must say I sometimes wait for people, clerks etc to say something stupid so I can vent, not because I want to but because I have to, something has to give as patience is seriously compromised, like no internal pleasure lol, if u can say that. Now if opium is the thing that soothes that to the point of carrying over between situations, then so be it. I've long felt drug addicts, but for some reason didn't get into it myself, perhaps I wasn't convinced the drugs would meet my expectations, or that the whole drug abuse scene felt depressing. But I do know what it's like to crave basic feel good. I mean normal mood to me look as if drugged, the difference is so big. At the same time I can relate to it from memory, i guess it's helped me retain hope that there's something better, but with incompetent modern psychiatry what do you do, just hope til you die? If you're too depressed for current psychiatry, then yes, that is the expectation. If you have a long record of failed treatments and virtually all of it is serotonin related, that's a pretty bold statement that it is for a selected few only. The fact that you can be in treatment for so long without symptom relief says something as well. Then, the odds of finding a sufficiently open minded psychiatrist who understands biochemistry and mental illness is slim, most, quiet understandably go mainly by the book, it's just that the book they use is simply incomplete.


I think all opiates have antidepressant properties, obviously. I think thats simply due to the fact that they all release dopamine and endorphins.

Any drug for that matter that makes u "feel good", is ultimately an antidepressant, right?

I kind of wonder that as well, that's why I asked about bupe. But at the same time, current antidepressants don't help many. It's almost ironic that they treat drug abuse depression with ssri, which don't even work for many who weren't drawn to dope or coke. The few tricyclics that work on dopamine are widely unavailable, it's incredible. It'd be one thing if they'd restricted coke as an antidepressant, being that it really is unfeasible due to being short acting and tolerance developing, but tricyclics. They don't even want to do with dopamine, let alone endorphins, so of course people will get hooked on coke and dope. Can't just pretend that serotonin fixes everything.
It's therefore great to see that finally new compounds are being developed and researched, including ketamine and apparently also one that's based on bupe, believe it or not. In light of everything that sucks with current psychiatry, it's really refreshing to see how they don't care what's being hyped about sri's and just go for what works, that's what should've happened long time ago, then by today they'd have learned of limitations and workarounds, instead it's been almost serotonin is the culprit period. Guess a few select psychiatrists know better, but that doesn't help many. I think with the brain being so complex, and brain research still in infancy, psychiatrists should be schooled in ensuring symptom relief, instead they severely limit them as if they already knew the brain in and out. They should be able to use intuition based on most available tools and compounds if symptom relief was the business, and being experienced professionals, still do so relatively safely. Especially given suicide is a reality for some. In general medicine if there's risk of dying the utmost is done to prevent it. Clearly not so in current psychiatry, it's more about moralizing almost. Some won't even prescribe benzos short term, despite superior efficacy for anxiety relief, and by no means very likely to cause dependence.


Thanks for the info, it's been nice to learn about the doses and effects. I think it'd be good to start with bupe, and then keep methadone and oxy in mind, plus certain shrooms. Being good with tolerance, and hating for something that finally works to lose effectiveness, so usually very careful not to overdo, although less so with time as life passes by, but feeling good has become very expensive.
 
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Careful with your doseage. I've seen a few opiate naive people do nothing but puke and be dizzy standing up after doing bupe the first time well into the next day.
 
Totally. Just 5mg vicodin made me feel sick, although no real painkilling or euphoric effects, actually went up to 7.5mg at which point I may have felt some slight effect. I looked up some bupe depression dosage, seems like 1-2mg. Definitely not 8mg. I don't need nausea and dizziness though, already get occasional nausea as is.


Wonder if opiates could be compared to benzo's early effects, like this euphoric sedation, at least closest to euphoria I've felt with depression. Hopefully it's even better, in terms of being more painkilling/antidepressant. We're really lucky, that they're coming out with a bupe antidepressant, given how many psych docs have frowned on bupe. If this was 10-20 years ago every new antidepressant would've been a serotonin reuptake inhibitor variant, save for some meek dopamine agonist, i.e. bupropion, i mean imo that's like a bud lite compared to a bottle of vodka, and it's the best they offer, when it should've just been one dopamine agonist out of many of varying strengths and specialties. In fact whatever they give for depression these days as far as dopamine is concerned, other than bupropion, are anti psychotics which reduce dopamine, i mean who didn't know that more dopamine not less helps with mood. It's what coke, speed and meth do. What's next, reduce endorphins. Not being placebo prone will make many shrinks relieved when you quit. But if it's severe placebo only does so much, thus you're left to your own devices with all its pitfalls. At least there's the drug community.


now if something like bupe could raise the spirit/mood just a few notches above headache, it'd be livable, but only time will tell. If it works I might post about it.
 
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