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Bupe: The Less Is More Myth Exposed

I personally still don't see how the "Less is more" theory is disproved by your opening post.

All the points your post makes are valid as well as the notion that for some people "less is more", since everyone responds to bupe a little differently, for some people taking less bupe might actually feel like taking more.
 
I personally still don't see how the "Less is more" theory is disproved by your opening post.

All the points your post makes are valid as well as the notion that for some people "less is more", since everyone responds to bupe a little differently, for some people taking less bupe might actually feel like taking more.

I don't think he was trying to disprove that "less is better (for some people in some circumstances)"

It seems to me that the main issue was the many people who insist that no one needs more than 2/4/8mgs ever, and seem to take it upon themselves to inform other posters that they are definately taking way too much bupe.
 
It is nothing short of annoying.. Even after Tchort made a grand attempt at just enlightening those who were making these hugely generalized statements about the maximum bupe dose, they all STILL are adamanet that his opening post did not disprove them whatsoever.. like they have such HUGE EGOS they would rather still go around blanketing every dope head in a lie that says the most bupe you should take, instead of admitting a lick of shame and praising tchort for getting the correct information on here. (harm reduction community, right?)

Oh yes, everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just don't make an even larger ass out of yourself in voicing it, please.

Great effort and post, tchort. I did believe in the 'less is more theory', and I stand corrected and happy to be so.
 
Great effort and post, tchort. I did believe in the 'less is more theory', and I stand corrected and happy to be so.

Taking too much can lead to antagonism on mu receptors causing discomfort. Taking less and titrating up is by far better for ones own comfort. What I think was exposed in this thread more than anything else is how little anyone actually knows about bupe dosing even to this day. Taking the least effective amount is obviously the best action and I don't think anyone would argue that.

I'm just curious as to how you could believe something as if it worked for you and then discard you own expirience based on an email from the company that sells the drug. If someone has more and they take less they can always take more if they aren't satisfied, while taking too much can cause irreversible negative affects. That said I personally will continue to tell people to start at a small dose and go up for that very reason, still.

I'm just a bit concerned that you may have misunderstood and will start taking more bupe even if the dose you were taking worked just fine. Please don't forget taking too much can cause discomfort due to the change from agonism to antagonism which is where the generalization "less is more" ultimately came from.
 
^I'm not at all saying you're wrong, in fact it seems completely logical that the antagonist effect is dose dependent, but do you have any literature on this? I would love to understand that concept better so I can more accurately understand dosing and dose-response effects. If anyone can help me out with this or give me some direction in finding it I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!
 
Thing is as I said before is its very hard to find literature that is focused solely on the topic. I'm out right now but I will PM you a link when I get a chance. In the meantime last piece I read was on pubmed which is a great site for all kinds of info if you're not familiar with it which I asume you probably are.
Peace
 
Thanks, I really appreciate that. I have access to a lot of academic search engines through school and ill search around... I bet you're right though and there isn't a lot of published research. If I find anything usefull I'll post it.

Do you have an idea of when the antagonist effects start to dominate? Or maybe a range? I'm sure it varies but maybe some people have some theories or experiences?
 
Dude was I talking to you? Have you read this thread? When did I tout anything as fact?

If you weren't talking to everyone you should have sent your message as a PM. No need to get angry with people trying to answer your question on an open forum.
 
I truly believe in the "Less is more" bupe statement.

I had a 240mg oxycodone/5 bags of h habit a day, and 1-2mg of bupe would do just as good for me as 8-16mg of bupe would.

It's fine for people to believe this statement, the OP is just saying not to tout it as fact to other people because there is no evidence that this is true.
 
Buprenorphine antagonizes itself at higher doses, yes.

do you have any sources to back this up? i mentioned this to my doctor and he said that is not true. he said he's seen people prescribed up to 64mg's in order for the Subs to stop the W/D. according to your statement that would be causing an antagonistic effect instead of helping the W/D.
 
If you weren't talking to everyone you should have sent your message as a PM. No need to get angry with people trying to answer your question on an open forum.

Righteous post bro. Man did I ever learn my lesson.

As far as bupe antagonising itself at higher doses that would be case dependent. If someone needs 2000mg legitimately than no the bupe won't antagonize itself. The idea is that once a person goes beyond a certain dose the bupe could antagonize itself. Saying someone has needed 64mg doesn't prove or disprove anything. Without reading this entire thread from 3 months ago I'm pretty sure that idea was presented as an abstract. Meaning it hasn't been proven or disproved yet.
 
do you have any sources to back this up? i mentioned this to my doctor and he said that is not true. he said he's seen people prescribed up to 64mg's in order for the Subs to stop the W/D. according to your statement that would be causing an antagonistic effect instead of helping the W/D.

It varies for individuals. Not everyone can get relief from the same low dose of buprenorphine that I can.

Some people require higher amounts, some people require lower ones.

The idea is that not everyone needs a higher amount either.

If you don't NEED a higher amount, buprenorphine can antagonize itself at the mu-opioid receptor. There is evidence of this, hence why it is called a partial agonist/antagonist. If you talk to your doctor about this, he's likely to say that the partial agonist/antagonist means that the antagonism comes from naloxone, when we all know thoroughly well by now that naloxone is an, in essence, inert ingredient in suboxone. Buprenorphine is itself a partial agonist/antagonist due to the fact that it can both agonize and antagonize the receptor, though at the right dose it will just agonize it.

I wouldn't trust your buprenorphine doctor to know much about his "area of expertise", because by far and large, most buprenorphine doctors don't know anything about what they're talking about.

Most people who post "I talked to my bupe doctor and here's what he told me..." contradict in what they say following these words so much that anyone can clearly see that only rarely do buprenorphine doctors know what they're talking about.

And yes, there is antecdotal evidence to suggest what I am talking about is true. There was someone who saved up his N8's from a take away clinic (probably down under...but who knows...you Aussies are crazy ;)) and ended up taking something like > 11 8mg pills (over 88mg), and the buprenorphine most certainly was antagonizing him. He was agitated, and came into the clinic demanding more, and upon being given two more, he asked for more, upon time they decided to further investigate the situation.

If someone knows the story I'm talking about, feel free to post the story, I can't seem to find it.

Righteous post bro. Man did I ever learn my lesson.

As far as bupe antagonising itself at higher doses that would be case dependent. If someone needs 2000mg legitimately than no the bupe won't antagonize itself. The idea is that once a person goes beyond a certain dose the bupe could antagonize itself. Saying someone has needed 64mg doesn't prove or disprove anything. Without reading this entire thread from 3 months ago I'm pretty sure that idea was presented as an abstract. Meaning it hasn't been proven or disproved yet.

I think it's pretty much been proven (short of pictures of the neurotransmitters in action). I've seen it when people take too much buprenorphine; they get really itchy, they get tired, they get irritable, they're agitated, they're angry/upset, and not in a good mood.
 
down from 24mg a day to 1mg daily, .5 twice, i can honestly attest to the fact that lower bupe gets me higher. it's very weird how it works, but i'm getting much fewer cravings, a better high, and so on.
 
down from 24mg a day to 1mg daily, .5 twice, i can honestly attest to the fact that lower bupe gets me higher. it's very weird how it works, but i'm getting much fewer cravings, a better high, and so on.

This has been well known from the start. The argument throughout this thread, unfortunately, kept going back and forth regarding several different points (which different dosage levels are indicated for different reasons/areas of contention, but not in others). This has made it a little unclear.

The mu agonism side effect Euphoria ends well before the mu agonism ceiling- meaning, at around 12mg-16mg (according to R-B white paper I believe) higher doses no longer result in increased euphoria. However, higher doses will continue to provide other further/stronger effects of mu agonism (analgesia, constipation, miosis, etc).

So there is a 'Euphoria Ceiling Dose' and a 'Mu Agonism Ceiling Dose'- which adds more confusion to the discussion of appropriate use of Buprenorphine medically (for pain, detox taper, steady maintanence) or recreationally.
 
IMO there is no right or wrong in this situation. It is all based on people's opinion and how they feel on different dose's, everyone is going to have different outcomes, i myself can maitain on a rather low dose of bupe considering how high my tolerance was at the time. I appreciate the effort Tchort, but we all know this thread can go on forever.
 
IMO there is no right or wrong in this situation. It is all based on people's opinion and how they feel on different dose's, everyone is going to have different outcomes, i myself can maitain on a rather low dose of bupe considering how high my tolerance was at the time. I appreciate the effort Tchort, but we all know this thread can go on forever.

The problem is people using what they have experienced to give medical advice that is contrary to prescribing guidelines/treatment protocol. If it were simply giving a report about your experience, then there wouldn't be a problem.

The problem that led to this threads creation was people who use lower doses of Buprenorphine daily blanketing Bupe threads in BL with statements like "Any dose over 8mg is too high, no one needs that much"- multiple members reinforcing this and related opinions in virtually every thread on the subject.

We should be telling eachother about experiences and give recommendations based on them when it comes to treatment. I don't think its right to disregard treatment guidelines and protocol and give medical advice based on this disregard.
 
The problem that led to this threads creation was people who use lower doses of Buprenorphine daily blanketing Bupe threads in BL with statements like "Any dose over 8mg is too high, no one needs that much"- multiple members reinforcing this and related opinions in virtually every thread on the subject.

We should be telling eachother about experiences and give recommendations based on them when it comes to treatment. I don't think its right to disregard treatment guidelines and protocol and give medical advice based on this disregard.

couldn't have said it better myself.

just because a thread is about bupe does not mean that every other post should tell the poster that "less is more", a) because everyone is different, and b) it often has exactly nothing to do with the matter at hand.
 
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