Opioids Bupe: I cannot break these withdrawals even with S.A.O. Full agonists or taper

[BigWolf]

Well, I landed back on the horse. Seven years ago I would have died before I came off of it. Now I'm dying to get off of it.


I wrote a post about being in the hospital that was mostly unintelligible, but it serves as a benchmark for me as to where and when I started doing dope again.


In the hospital I was getting 6mg dilaudid PO q.i.d.; so I started crushing up the pills in the bathroom and banging them in the iv. Yes I'm aware of what happens when you shoot pills, but it was too good to resist.


When I ended up back in the hospital for surgery, they put me on a pain pump, every 8mins I could bump .2mg iv. The nurse did NOT realize she was dealing with a crafty dope fiend. Got the passcode for the pump (Christ.) and started manually hitting booster shots of 1.8mg iv. Litterally over and over and over. And it was heaven I'd forgotten.


Got out, the long and short of it is that I finally shot dope again and remembered why I loved it. Ran with this for a little while until I encountered a problem... I've been on suboxone for two/three years, when I started using full agonists obv. I faced no withdrawals from the suboxone; once they wore off though, brutal withdrawal started all over. So here I am now, months later, back to subs. What I can't figure is this:


I've been off the subs largely for two months, using full agonists, however when I tried doing a rapid taper I found myself in bad w/d. The sweats are what fucking kills me. All day all night.


I finally scored some subs on Sunday, and it started to die down, but not entirely. It took 12mg to get me to an ok state; granted I was shooting heavy amounts of dope (like waking up with a pin on the ground and aspirated at one point; thank god I was slumped over and not on my back.) but shit dude 12mg is a LOT of bupe. Now I'm sort of taking the subs as needed but can't go more than 24hrs without.


The issue is I'm tired of being sick. I'm sick of being tired. I want life back, and I'm done with these withdrawals running the show... Constantly chasing them is life. But this withdrawal from subs will NOT let up. I feel like it never ends. All things considered, shouldn't I have broken the dependency on bupe?? Withdrawals from bupe are a little different for me; they're relentless, unforgiving, self-brutalizing, and just WILL NOT STOP.


Who here has faced the same issue with being on Bupe maintenance, and broken the habit? Essentially I tried breaking it using short acting full agonists with no real luck. So did you? How did you taper with subs to not feel THIS bad? Tomorrow marks another dr's. apt for more pills, so I'll be back on oxy(codone). I just want to feel better. How can I kick this shit once and for all because I'm starting to feel like it almost better going to a Methadone clinic. I mean goddamnit at least I'd be withdrawal from a REAL opiate.... Not this bullshit sickly-citrus flavored "just almost normal" half-o-nist...


Advice? All ears.

 

[SS373dOH]

Bup' will stick with you for months, especially at.your dosage. I'd use the full aggies for 3-4 months, then try to taper off those, and try not to use suboxone again, but you said youre in wd, even when on a full agonist?



- Hopeless 7nos

 

[Hodor]

Bupe is a very interesting compound in that it's not just a partial mu agonist but also a kappa antagonist.
The kappa opioid receptor is sort of mu's evil twin, whose activation produces feelings of stress and revulsion; consequently kappa antagonists can significantly lower your stress levels, which is why they are being investigated as atypical antidepressants.
It's possible the people who have the most trouble discontinuing bupe are those for whom it was not just a substitute for other opioids, but also the antidepressant they never knew they needed, and that they're now relapsing into a treatment-resistant depressive episode.

 

[Kittycat5]

He would gets sweats from depression?

 

[tightlywound]

IME using a full agonist actually makes the bupe w/ds WAY worse upon coming down so you may have fucked up there. If you can, do a slow taper, as slow as you need it to be, just as long as you're going down. Jump off at sub mg doses. You can kick that shit, it's possible, you just have to do it slowly. Even doing the slow bupe taper to the point that you don't experience actual w/ds coming down you may very well suffer depression and anxiety as you lower your dose especially if you're at all predisposed to it.
Good luck, I wish you well in kicking all opioids.

 

[w0w0mg]

I was on Methadone 90MG and came off cold turkey, I made it about 4 weeks and started using heroin again, I used for a couple months and came off the dope and I could still feel the lingering withdrawals from methadone!
It lasts a while my friend, I would maybe suggest a taper?

 

[belfort]

Ever think of using kratom for withdrawals?many have used it to get off subuxone, heroin etc etc

 

[Znegative]

Ever think of using kratom for withdrawals?many have used it to get off subuxone, heroin etc etc

Yeah, I was going to recommend this as well, because it's what I've done (granted I'm now on kratom, but IMO life is way better on kratom). Bupe and Methadone withdrawals are really terrible, because once the acute phase is over, the PAWS lasts forever as well. When I kicked methadone CT the first time, I went through about 6 months of the most horrible depression I've ever experienced.

Honestly, I haven't tried to kick the kratom yet, because I like my life better on it. I don't really mind being addicted to opiates/opioid drugs as long as I can afford them and I'm not doing myself or anyone else any harm, and kratom's a good alternative because it can only be taken orally which has helped me a great deal get over my needle addiction (whereas with subs, you can still shoot them). IDK, at this point in my life, after struggling with IV drug use for a third of my time on this planet, I can forgive myself for drinking tea a few times a day and getting a little buzz going, because the alternative for me is true IV depravity. I would look into it (kratom), even if you use it as a transitional period kind of thing while you get the suboxone out of your system.

Also, get some Clonodine. A good dose of clonodine will allow you to sleep and take away most of the worst withdrawal symptoms. It's really the best detox medication for opiates IMO because it's non-narcotic, non-benzodiazepine and it's actually effective. Gabapentin is helpful too, and if you can't get clonodine, but can for some reason get Zanaflex, that works very similarly.

 

[BigWolf]

It's scary to think bupe withdrawals can go on for months under the surface which leads me to..

how can that occur in the presence of a s.a.o. Full agonist? Hodor mentioned (great info) that bupe acts as a k-opiod antagonist. I'll bet you that does make a world of difference. So I guess the question is this, how strong of an antagonist at the k-opiod site is bupe, vs other similar antagonists? Isn't salvia divinorium, I think salvonorian-a is a k-opiod antagonist no? What is the binding affinity of bupe at that site?


*pause*
in the middle of writing this, a dr just told me they aren't going to prescribe pain meds because I had suboxone on my history. So people who actually need pain meds get denied. Nice. I've taken clonodine before, I just don't see how it could be that effective against withdrawals. You really swear by it? It looks like I'm going to have to stay on suboxone now.

 

[BigWolf]

I'm wondering if Methadone is the right answer, if I can even do that.

 

[mike.vick]

Bupe is a very interesting compound in that it's not just a partial mu agonist but also a kappa antagonist.
The kappa opioid receptor is sort of mu's evil twin, whose activation produces feelings of stress and revulsion; consequently kappa antagonists can significantly lower your stress levels, which is why they are being investigated as atypical antidepressants.
It's possible the people who have the most trouble discontinuing bupe are those for whom it was not just a substitute for other opioids, but also the antidepressant they never knew they needed, and that they're now relapsing into a treatment-resistant depressive episode.

Salvia is the most dysphoric, psycho-schizo drug there is and it is K-opiod agonist. I wish I could get my hands on some antagonists

 

[BigWolf]

So some updates...

After about 4-5 days I actually was stable on the subs. No withdrawal present. For the sake of timing and upcoming events, this is not the time to break the sub addiction. It'll have to wait. And socially it's not causing much harm.

I moved back home after living on my own in Florida from 17-27, but came back home for a position is a union is wanted to be in as far back as I could remember. One look at Seeing my family members do this kind of work on high rise construction in NYC and I was hooked. Once my leg is healed up I can do it again. That said, moving back with my family was the worst worst decisions of my life. I used to be happy. Sober. Now, I can't escape the chaos of a paranoid delusional and violent mother, an apathetic father who's life is work, and the local police since my mom has called them so many times they may as well be part of our family.

It's appropriate to be posting this on Mother's Day; once I'm back at full wage, I can leave here and never come back. Say a prayer for me guys that my union book gets transferred from service to construction for new buildings so I can live out my dreams. (Thanks.)

It's no wonder I picked up dope again. They never changed. Deep deep down inside, of course I wish I didn't have this looming affinity to drugs. I mean it. Maybe some of you can say the same. But, even after years of abstinence, I can tell you this:
I don't believe 75% of what I heard in 12 step programs, but one thing I do believe is this... When you start using again it's as if you never stopped.


Heroin is amazing. Hands down amazing. Beauty in a bag. But when you spend your days, in a subliminal daze of euphoric stupor, you forget how to live with just normal emotions. Life becomes mundane. I mean shit if you take drugs away from me, after moving home, I have become mundane. The wolfie I once knew is no more. I just look forward to the version of me that is yet to come.

That's why dope is starting to scare me. I copped another bundle today, and once again, I'm ok with the insanity of this household.

All I can say is that after doing some dope (after waiting 30 hrs from sub), that comfortable feeling of what it's like to enjoy my life is back.

Is this the same experience from those on Methadone maintenance? Because sub maintenance sure doesn't do it. I need to be on something long term, can you guys help me out with suggestions either by the book or maybe in the grey area on how to..... In essence.... Be on an opiate that I can get without any real issue, and continue to grow a life focused on positive things?

I love heroin. Society does not. The law does not. My body eventually will not, and I doubt it will work for my future wife and family. But if Methadone has those positive opiod effects and can remain that way, I think it's a go to.

Ok. I need some help here.

 

[crisler]

Completely unrelated I apologize, but dear God. These bupe, methadone and heroin horror stories are all I need to make sure I never touch. Im a tramadol addict but I am weaningat the moment and dont think I will ever need maintenance meds. This is so tough to read. Best of luck to you man.

Isn't there a way to detox ina medical facility and jump off the lowest dose you can and weatherthe storm? I know its extremely unpleasant but it isnt something that can kill like alcohol withdrawal or xanax withdrawal.