Bromocriptine again!

[Jamshyd]

This illusive drug seems to have sporadic mentions here and there but never anything solid.

Ever since my run with GHB addiction, I suffered from an anhedonia that never quite went away. Shortly after said addiction, I was prescribed dexedrine and for once I felt the anhedonia go away... only to get myself into a severe dex habit that landed me with an angina and three episodes of amp. psychosis.

Since I stopped the latter, the anhedonia of course continued. It is marked by an extremely lowered and sporadic sex-drive and a feeling of being "not alive enough".

It appears to me, that through both its dopaminergic as well as its hormonal effect, that it may be a good candidate for a cure. On the other hand I DO have low blood-pressure and DO suffer from episodes of orthostatic hypotension, which can occasionally be exasperated by other Ergoloids. I am also traumatized by nausea and vomiting...

That aside though, I LOVE both hydergine and Nicergoline.

What do you think? Any experiences? Just how bad would a quarter of a 2.5mg pill be?

 

[P A]

If you take it with a good antiemetic (ondanetron and its ilk are solid candidates), the nausea should be fully bearable or completely absent. As for the hypotension, I have doubts that it would be severe enough at so low a dose to cause you any grief.

On the other hand, any talk of amphetamine psychosis is worrying when considering the D2 agonists' notable penchant for psychotomimesis. I would promptly swallow the low dose and observe. Again, nothing drastic is likely at .625 mg.

 

[Jamshyd]

... I though Odansetron was purely serotonergic...? Either way, in these parts it is only available for terminally-ill patients on chemo :/

Just how BAD is the nausea?? I mean this is a drug that some people take regularly with their steroid or nootropic regimes. It can't be that extreme, can it?

 

[mad_scientist]

Have heard of newer dopamine agonists, particularly pramipexole, being used for this kind of application (i.e. counteracting anhedonia and lowered sex drive in former methamphetamine addicts) but my understanding was that bromocriptine is not used because of the comparatively even more severe side effects.

As P A notes though, a history of amphetamine psychosis is a worry given that D2 agonists are quite notorious for making people hear voices etc...something more D3 selective like ropinirole would probably be more suitable.

 

[Jamshyd]

I don't know how worrying said history of psychosis can be... anyone sleep-deprived for a week-straight is bound to write their own gospel . *cough*

Seriously though - I may have experienced amp. psychosis, but apparently I have one of the most reality-anchored minds my psychologist has met.

I appreciate the input though .

However, my biggest worry really is the nausea and hypotension.

And what I have now is a pack of 40 2.5mg Parlodel tabs - I don't have Ondansetron, nor do I have Pramipexole or Ropinirole .

So please, I'd like to hear more on Bromocriptine!

 

[sekio]

I have no experience with ergot alkaloids, but I would be wary of the supposed 12 to 14 hour half life if you decide to get experimental and nausea becomes an issue.

 

[negrogesic]

Oh jamshyd.......nigga please. Don't have time to answer in full but I have valid input. I am secure in heterosexual (exlusively hetero on the kinsey, way I was born, I believe sexual orietantion has a major genetic component).......I have many homosexual friends, and I use the fag out of context for "stupid", but I am not judgemenal) yet as a composer at heart, I "kind of" get why Shubert was possible bisexual through his innovation view on harmony. Listen to his string quartet Death of the Maiden. Its a masterpiece......and I say that rarely.......I use the last movement to sleep......ever night for 2 or so years.........never get sick of.......oh and my homosexual colleages.....are almost all brilliant.......But I'm happpy I like women, I want kid of me......but I'm an arrogant guy.....

 

[negrogesic]

You wanr anti-emetics ask me......or bromocriptine.......this only apply to jamshy for purely subconscious homosexiual reasons........hey at least I think I'm funny, iant tnat all that mattters (or am I nuts?).

I am,biased, but is your pschologist impartial. I personally may come off as a realist to most professionals, im.a dreamer.......

 

[sekio]

What on earth...?

I have a sneaking suspicion that nausea on Ketamine may be modulated by its D2 (partial) agonism (along with nystagmus). If you could take bolus doses of K without puking, bromocriptine may be bearable.

 

[Jamshyd]

Hahaha! Negro, I love you (No homo ).

Seiko: I never get nausea from K if it is a one-nighter thing, but any chronic use - medical or recreational, causes me to get nauseous for a few hours, and after that never again, no matter how much or for how long I use thereafter. I have no clue how or why this happens.


As for bromo: I decided to take 0.625mg last night, in two halves over 2hrs. Although I definitely felt it (funny, the ONLY thing I can compare it to is quitiapine!), there was no serious nausea or hypotension - though there may have been bradycardia (just a feeling).

This morning I woke up feeling slightly icky (again, just like when I once took seroquel to sleep) and *extremely* groggy (more so than usual), however once I got going I found my appetite increased TENFOLD and although mood is baseline, I guess I can say volition is improved (I am more interested in things I should be interested in) and I feel warmth in my extremities.

Do keep in mind that this is all happening with small doses of Hydergine (2.25mg X3/day) and Adrafinil (600mg/day), Gabapentin (avg. 2g/day) and caffeine (double espresso + tea).

Also recovering from a week or so of daily adderall use.

All these defintely shape the experience. However, I can positively say that the bromo is the most "felt" of all these substance, and I can positively say it is RADICALLY enhancing all the wonderful effects of hydergine (particularly recall and language).

I intend on taking another 0.625mg tonight and see how it works out.

 

[polymath]

Hehe, I wonder what negrogesic was on when he wrote those messages...

Jamshyd, look at this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7128188

Abstract
A double-blind trial was carried out in 9 patients with endogenous depression to compare the effectiveness of bromocriptine (15 mg per day, 4 patients) with that of imipramine (75 mg per day, 5 patients) over a period of 10 weeks. The results of assessments using the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression showed that both drugs produced comparable reduction in mean scores and there was no significant difference between the two treatment groups. Fewer patients han anticholinergic type side-effects on bromocriptine although some had transient nausea.

The doses used in that experiment were a lot higher than what you are about to take, and the nausea caused by the treatment wasn't severe.

 

[negrogesic]

I was drunk on technical grade ethanol (yes, 100% ethanol, with ice its still hurts but is bearable). I actually ended up vomiting after, which is very rare for me (i think it was because of taking it with a large amout of a ZMA supplement. Hey at least i'm honest. For better or worse this computer like smart phone (cost as much as a computer, 1.5 ghz, overally complicated!), makes me constantly "wired in" with good but imperfect voice recognition which worsens my superfluous/verbose responses.

Back to the point: jamshyd, have you tried selegine or even nardil? How severe is the anhedonia? Is it accompanied with an other psychiatric symptoms or pre-existing comorbs? Basically i need more info to properally answer your question. Have you ever tried mirtazapine........personally i find it superior to odansetron, which you are correct, is primarily a 5-HT antagonist (5-HT3 etc).

Final questions, what is your current toxicology profile (aka.....what are you 'taking')? Aside from the toxic psychosis, do you currently experience any psychosis (specifically, auditory, visual, paranoid, delusional or any inability to perceive/differentiate 'reality etc'). In theory to answer that question would rule out psychotic disorders, but in practice it does not (ex, I have seen patients with severe schizophrenia discount or even admit that they are sick).

 

[poopstation]

route of administration plays a big role regarding the nausea of this compound. i can say from 2nd hand experience (watching someone who took bromocriptine) that the person had HORRIBLE nausea and threw up a few times but only after laying in bed feeling miserable for about 2 hours. the person first felt light headed and dizzy, the person then said they felt like they were going to faint so they laid down on a bed. altogether this person spent around 5 hours feeling miserable, be better off having the flu. no positive effects were reported. extreme vasoconstriction in the extremities was also reported

 

[negrogesic]

Oh, and while I clinically I cannot recommend due to safety issues, personally I have found single high doses of an NMDA-ant like ketamine (IV not IM, but this is very dangerous and I cannot in good conscience advocate IV ketamine, this could technically result in fatalities). While I did it repeatedly (i don’t like the psychedelic element of IM, IV gets me high with much less psychotomim). It can be done safely with an experienced "sitter", but i am reckless with my own health (and very cautious with the health of others....go figure).

Point is, a single high dose (borderline anesthetic) of ketamine or nitrous oxide (do not self-administer in continuous infusion, that is even more dangerous) has, subjectively, significantly reduced anhedonia, but there is a catch.....the effect is short-lived, in my experience, lasting 3-12 days. I prefer nitrous oxide induction, but I must INSIST against this due to danger (even though i have the proper equipment, with timers and sensible O2 ratios, this is still very reckless done alone).

I recall you had a love affair of sorts with ketamine, so this may not be an option/relevant. Just an idea.

 

[P A]

I though Odansetron was purely serotonergic

...it is. But that certainly doesn't stop it from being efficacious in treating most forms of clinically significant nausea - most of which are mediated in part by heightened HT signalling in the vagus nerve and chemoreceptor trigger zone. Is there an analogous HT3 antagonist available for non-chemo-ridden patients with nausea? [An aside: It's Canada, right? Why do they insist on restricting the administration of medicines in this miopic way? There is such a thing as 'off-label' utility...]

Have you ever tried mirtazapine........personally i find it superior to odansetron, which you are correct, is primarily a 5-HT antagonist (5-HT3 etc).

Mirtazapine is likely to be far more effective than most other antiemetics, but at what cost? Its powerful H1 antagonistic properties endow it with all the beneficial properties expected of similar compounds (stifling of mast inflammatory signalling, antiemesis, improved subjective sleep quality, etc.), all of which are usually accompanied by a proportional number of obnoxious side effects (fatigue, cognitive dysfunction, dizziness, and whatnot). Having taken the drug myself, I can reliably attest to its many benefits as well as its pitfalls. [Not that my personal experience is worth much of anything compared to the results of large double-blind trials, but suffice it to say, it was pretty typical.]

By comparison, ondansetron is infinitely benign, with virtually no side effects that could impinge upon the efficacy of the bromocriptine in relieving Jamshyd's persistent anhedonia.

 

[MeDieViL]

Dopamine agonists can induce anhedonia and apathy in some cases due to shifting balance to tonic instead of phasic firing.

 

[MeDieViL]

As P A notes though, a history of amphetamine psychosis is a worry given that D2 agonists are quite notorious for making people hear voices etc...something more D3 selective like ropinirole would probably be more suitable.

PLoS One. 2008 Jun 25;3(6):e2479.
Dopamine agonist increases risk taking but blunts reward-related brain activity.
Riba J, Krämer UM, Heldmann M, Richter S, Münte TF.

Department of Neuropsychology, University of Magdeburg, Magdeburg, Germany.
Abstract
The use of D2/D3 dopaminergic agonists in Parkinson's disease (PD) may lead to pathological gambling. In a placebo-controlled double-blind study in healthy volunteers, we observed riskier choices in a lottery task after administration of the D3 receptor-preferring agonist pramipexole thus mimicking risk-taking behavior in PD. Moreover, we demonstrate decreased activation in the rostral basal ganglia and midbrain, key structures of the reward system, following unexpected high gains and therefore propose that pathological gambling in PD results from the need to seek higher rewards to overcome the blunted response in this system.

D3 preferring agonists are rather a bad idea in this case imodue to their ability to increase risk taking behaver and reduce impulse control.

 

[negrogesic]

I was asking if he tried remeron, and you are correct, there are side-effects, including an initial dysphoria lasting the first week or so. But I love the drug, i take 120mg of the stuff/day. And I do not take if for an psychiatric purposes, I take it FOR the side-effects, mainly its wonderful appetite stimulant properties. Ive been taking it for years at varying doses (i can switch to 30mg from 120mg without any withdrawal issues) and I have become highly tolerant to its H1-antagonism (which sort of sucks, because my scalp itches and no H1-antagonist will have much of an effect, remeron has an absurd H1 affinity, a Ki of 1 point something nM). Actually.....technically mirtazapine should be a inverse H1 agonist, but who cares, i thinking calling it an antagonist is much less confusing than inverse agonist (many older physicians don't even know what inverse agonist means)........

The drug is very safe, much unlike most anti-d's, has no meaningful issues with neurotoxicity......in fact (I don't know if I believe it) but I've read some study that claimed it that it was a 'nootropic' of sorts, perhaps memory enhancement, I don't recall. But don't get me started on my 'nootropic' lecture (rant).

But technically......remeron is a shitty anti-depressant.........

 

[junglejuice]

LoL!!

ow my sides

 

[Jamshyd]

^ Are you laughing at my closet-boyfriend? x!



----

2nd night using 0.625mg Bromocriptine, taken in halves over 1h. Oh, and I forgot to mention an important detail: this is being taken rectally. Perhaps this has to do with the relative lack of nausea?

As with yesterday, very soon following the dose administration, there is a feeling of warmth similar to that which comes after a shot of alcohol (so I am almost certain it is vasodilation). Mood seemed to brighten suddenly, and there is a desire to listen to music as well as an enhanced appreciation for it (GY!BE's sleep is always heavenly, but now more so!), though the latter could simply be due to the fact that I'm on a course of hydergine.

There is also an alertness and mental clarity present that were largely absent during the day - this could either be due to bromo being good while its metabolites being bad, OR I could simply be going through the (expected) post-amphetamine crash and the dose of bromo aleviated some of the symptoms.

Heading to bed after replying to the above questions. Will report on how I feel upon waking up tomorrow.