Bromides as sedative

[jasoncrest]

In the 1st half on the (20th) century, only very few sleeping pills were commercialized.

Common barbituates (Pentobarbital, Secobarbital...) had not been invented yet, there was only Barbital and Phenobarbital.

The other common sedatives were Chloral Hydrate, Paraldehyde and Bromides.

The bromides used were Bromide salts, such as Potassium Bromide or Calcium Bromide.

I would like to know the mechanism of Bromide-induced sedation?
How does Bromide-induces sleep compare to benzos or barbituates?

 

[nuke]

Bromine interferes with iodine and can cause hypothyroidism in humans, which causes sedation and fatigue. There's a paper all about that here.

So, I guess it would work as a sedative that way, but the effects of reduced thyroid activity are far from desirable. But you will sleep a lot, if that's your goal.

 

[EN21]

KBr and chloralhydrate

Interesting stuff!

I have no idea, and I suppose nobody really knows the mechanism.
But I know some other nice anecdotes about it. During the 70s and 80s the German army added small of KBr to the food, as it normally is done with iodide or fluoride as supplement.
The background was that bromide not only is a sedative but is lowering the sexual desire.
-So that the soldiers are less concerned by sexual thoughts and …acts!
The sedating effect seemed to be less pronounced, otherwise they wouldn’t have used it.

An other interesting thing about chloralhydrate. This old –and nearly banned stuff seems to have a revival. A few months ago it got the so called “Creutzfeld-Arzneimittelpreis 2006” see http://www.aerztezeitung.de/docs/2006/07/04/121a1309.asp?cat= as a good, relatively safe hypnotic that does not influence the REM- and non REM sleep. It also does not influence the vigilance at the following day, does not influence the motor coordination, and people fall asleep but they still can be woken up easily.
So it can’ be that bad.
Anybody who tried it?

 

[johanneschimpo]

^ I have some in my possession. Its too late at night to bother now, but I'll give it a try soon. I believe I have about 400-500 mgs. I hope thats good for my first (probably only) dose. Fuck I gave a bunch away for other people to try first. None of them died or got sick so I guess I should have just saved it and tested it on myself

 

[almost-]

2g of NaBr was a little too less.

 

[Jamshyd]

Bromide is still given to dogs with epilepsy.

One dog I met who is on Bromide has been undergoing puppy training for 1 year and still doesn't know that "no" means stop or that "come" means come. The dog is practically amnesic. He's clumsy, and falls over every once in a while.

Bromide also lowers sex drive in an extreme manner. Which reminds me, said dog as is good as castrated with this drug.

Also, keep in mind that the Bromide has a VERY low therapeutic index (I forgot what you call that) - kinda like lithium.

 

[fastandbulbous]

Large (sedative) doses also fucks up the CL- ion concns around the body and can cause all sorts of hideous diseases with prolonged use (skin eruptions, neuralgia, gut problems etc).

There's a reason they're not used as sedatives any more - because they're toxic at sedative doses (look up conditions associated with brominism)

 

[hussness]

I've heard of robotrippers occasionally presenting with brominism from the counter ion in the DXM salt. How much bromine does it take to be toxic -- in other words, is bromine toxicity from DXM realistic?

 

[jasoncrest]

Large (sedative) doses also fucks up the CL- ion concns around the body and can cause all sorts of hideous diseases with prolonged use (skin eruptions, neuralgia, gut problems etc)

Here the OTC Bromine used against insomnia is Calcium Bromogalactogluconate (2g); so it deliver Calcium AND Bromide....

Is it dangerous after only one dose?
Can you suffer from Bromism after one use?

 

[johanneschimpo]

Yeah, but fast is saying it fucks with chloride ions, not calcium....
also, he says prolonged doses. one dose couldn't be dangerous, or they (hopefully) wouldn't sell it, at least not OTC

 

[vecktor]

Interesting stuff!

I have no idea, and I suppose nobody really knows the mechanism.
But I know some other nice anecdotes about it. During the 70s and 80s the German army added small of KBr to the food, as it normally is done with iodide or fluoride as supplement.
The background was that bromide not only is a sedative but is lowering the sexual desire.
-So that the soldiers are less concerned by sexual thoughts and …acts!
The sedating effect seemed to be less pronounced, otherwise they wouldn’t have used it.

An other interesting thing about chloralhydrate. This old –and nearly banned stuff seems to have a revival. A few months ago it got the so called “Creutzfeld-Arzneimittelpreis 2006” see http://www.aerztezeitung.de/docs/2006/07/04/121a1309.asp?cat= as a good, relatively safe hypnotic that does not influence the REM- and non REM sleep. It also does not influence the vigilance at the following day, does not influence the motor coordination, and people fall asleep but they still can be woken up easily.
So it can’ be that bad.
Anybody who tried it?

Dosing soldiers with bromide is probably a myth. Soldiers in basic training always used to complain that the army was putting something in the food or in the British army, into the tea which suppressed their sex drives. actually the reason the sex drive was suppressed was because of chronic fatigue. getting up at 0500 and running around doing stupid military things until 2300 will tire anyone out.
bromide does lower the sex drive amongst other things, but it would take a hell of a lot of bromide to dose a battallion. and by the 1970's there were much more potent agents that could have been used should the army choose.

 

[colors]

I've heard of robotrippers occasionally presenting with brominism from the counter ion in the DXM salt. How much bromine does it take to be toxic -- in other words, is bromine toxicity from DXM realistic?

Acute bromism is seldom seen because the bromide ion is irritating to the GI tract and produces vomiting before sufficient blood levels can be reached to cause bromism from short-term use. However, chronic bromism may develop--bromide is excreted slowly through the kidney, giving it the opportunity to build up in the body through ongoing ingestion (Morgan and Weaver, 1969).

I guess your best bet would be to flush your kidneys after, or use a dxm extraction tek that separates the bromine... i've heard that agent lemon [http://dextroverse.org/extractions.html] accomplishes this ... can anyone confirm?

 

[fastandbulbous]

Lemon will not achieve that. What you need to do is to isolate the DXM hydrobromide, neutralize it to form the freebase, separate it from the sodium bromide (if you used NaOH to heutralize the soln) then form the hydrochloride, tartrate or sulphate salt.

That said, there must be a reason such as stability as to why the hydrobromide salt is used, such as solubility or stability

 

[colors]

Lemon will not achieve that

'agent lemon'. it goes ammonia > naptha > lemon. apparently its freebase after the naptha evaporates, or hydrocitrate in the lemon juice. sry about the dud hotlink.