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Brain destroyed from 10 years Ritalin and high dose Neuroleptics.Anja from sweden:-)

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Student76

Student76

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Hello!

I am a femal student from Sweden.I was Prescriped Ritalin Neuroleptics and SSRIs as child for 10 years.After that i had no interesst to visit doctors any more.I was a zombi. I found RCs:-)
My brain chemistry is destroyed since high dose Neuroleptics SSRI and Ritalin.So I dont think I can do more harm.
I took 3-MMC for the last 3 Years, 5 times a week 400 mg with no problems until today.But effects know are nearly gone.I liked the slight empathogenic effects,and talkativness.And i was no zombi any more,i had a life.In my opinion Ritalin and Amphetamines I was prescriped where much stronger in effects.I liked 3 MMC more than Ritalin or MDPV.

Well if i want to stop it completly I have the same problems as with Ritalin,SSRis long therm.Brain zaps,depression.So I need something else.
I read on Bluelight and eve and rave there ist 5-MAPB,or 6 APB.I have a trusted shop so no problem.
But what can I expect? I dont want something I am totally stoned or cant think anymore and sit only on a couch and hear music:-)

So what do the experts here think.Can I take 5-MAPB or 6APB longterm low dose? say 10-30 mg 5 times a week?or something else?
My body is ok,but if those drugs like 5-MAPB are psychedelic,thats not my way,nor opoides or THC or heroin.I tried all.
I need something for depression,and that I can and love to talk to people and am aktiv.
Well for sleep i am Prescriped since 9 years nitrazepam:-)20mg,so im dependent on this one too.

I want not to here that this is unhealthy or so.But for me the 3 years on 3 MMC were better than on high dose Ritalin,Amp,and SSRI.
I was no zombi any more.I was alive.Is something like 5 MAPB or 6 apb much unhealthier or dangerous than 3 mmc daily 500mg?
I choosed this way.Better a shorter live,as a live where i am a zombi.I am not Schizophrenic,ADD+Depression

Thanks for advice.

Anja from Sweden:-)
 
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Daily use of any of the cathinones or MDA-type chemicals puts you at risk for developing heart valve problems through consistent overactivation of 5ht2b receptors, see also: why fenfluramine was withdrawn from market.

In addition there's also all the normal side effects of chronic stimulant use - high blood pressure, severe depression and anhedonia if you ever miss a dose, etc.

My brain chemistry is destroyed since high dose Neuroleptics SSRI and Ritalin.So I dont think I can do more harm.
Click to expand...

Oh, you can do plenty of harm if you try... writing off your brain as "destroyed" is rather pessimistic, if you can still make value judgements.
 
Well, I don't think anyone is going to come out and say using cathinones daily at high doses is very healthy for you, either. In fact, mephedrone has been shown to be neurotoxic in animal models. So I would bet money you're doing more damage with daily cathinone usage than any amount of SSRIs could inflict...

Have you tried amphetamine (Adderall/Dexedrine)? It's the closest alternative to a stimulant cathinone I can think of.

edit: See your previous 2 threads for reference
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...y-because-of-severe-depression-Danger-Options
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...ssion-from-benzo-use-Danger-Is-MDPV-an-Option
 
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Yes i have tried adderall/Dexedrine.I get psychosis from them.Not from 3 MMC.
Then neuroleptics plus adderall,plus ssri.Thank you.

There is research of serotonin and dopamin releaseres for Severe depression.
What do you think of 6 APB? look the moleküle is a part of citalpram,so is MDMA a part of Paroxetine.

I do not think i quality is pure,that 3 MMC is more evil than risperdal,dexis,and Paroxetine.Sorry I study Pharmakologie.
I only look for people with a Brain desease.I do not misuse these rcs for fun.

Sorry
 
6apb isn't in citaloprams structure or paroxetine, and if 6apb isnt in paroxetine MDMA can't be
 
Student76 said:
So what do the experts here think.Can I take 5-MAPB or 6APB longterm low dose?
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no. as sekio said you'll definitely run into heart problems. but besides that, serotonin releasers like those are very quick to show you that you've abused them. you'll be much worse off than you're now in a much shorter time span than 3 years.
btw, you can probably avoid the withdrawal symptoms from 3-mmc if you slowly taper your dose instead of stopping suddenly.

There is research of serotonin and dopamin releaseres for Severe depression.
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serotonin releasers aren't sustainable for longer periods of time. serotonin isn't rebuilt fast enough for that to work. if you drop mdma every day, you'll only get the side effects on your third or fourth day.
besides, mdma (and probably also the apb's as their structure is pretty similar) inhibits tryptophan hydroxylase, which leads to even less serotonin being available for release.
 
What do you think of 6 APB? look the moleküle is a part of citalpram,so is MDMA a part of Paroxetine.
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OK, so citalopram has a benzofuran in it - so what? It doesn't tell you anything meaningful about the activity of 6apb. Ibuprofen has a benzene ring in it, does that mean it's carcinogenic like benzene? And also, there aren't any monoamine releasers like 6APB that are actually indicated for depression. Too much abuse potential.

The major issue I have with this type of "therapy" is that these drugs you're talking about using (the methylmethcathinones/APB series) are known or suspected neurotoxins, especially in high-dose or chronic usage. Because they are destructive to the cells that regulate pleasure and emotion in the brain, long term usage will make you feel even more like a zombie when you stop. They are a short term bandaid solution when used at doses that high.

It is a common occurance for people to overuse empathogenic stimulants (MDMA is a common example) and "lose the magic" so to speak, so that when they take the drug all they get is high blood pressure and feeling sick. This even happens with amphetamines too. You will also find that eventually, the drugs wills stop providing you with that happy, euphoric, social feeling. Generally speaking, if you become tolerant to one monoamine releaser you will also be tolerant to others. And I 100% guarantee you will reach a point in your life where the stimulants stop working and you have no option but to discontinue use entirely.

Basically, if 500mg/day of 3MMC doesn't give you pleasurable effects, you are probably going to need significantly more than 30-50mg APB per dose, and in fact you may not even get the effects you desire even at higher doses.

On a different topic, it would also be a prudent idea to start a program of fairly intensive cardiovascular exercise, and evaluate your diet too. Good aerobic exercise and consumption of enough protein and vitamins will greatly help in restoring monoamines that you deplete with regular stimulant use. Plus there's tons of evidence that regular exercise is a good supportive treatment for depression, considering it gets the reward chemicals going.

Eating properly also ensures your brain has enough energy to run properly throughout the day. Especially if you are taking stimulants that raise your metabolic rate, if you aren't consuming enough calories to match your "burn rate", you will feel very much like a zombie and have other nasty side effects with very little hope to concentrate on anything.

Remember, this is a harm reduction forum, we're not here to give you advice that is going to result in harm to you in the long term.
 
Well citalopram was designed from the benzofuran molekül.Then they made changes that you can't missuse it any more.Well the change was from
a Serotonin releaser to reuptakinhibitor.I dont want to get in detail.
There was often research for monoaminreleasers for depression,but you can miss use them if you take a higher dosage.Thats the problem.So
in the world we live drugs are mostly missused,not used for diseases.

I am looking for someone here which used 6/5 APB 5 APBD often and had no crash in the evening.
From dexis,ritalin,and amphetamin, I finally crashed every evening in a suicidal depression.
Without meds i cant do nothing.I have a brain desease.Not from using these substanzes.I was born in a house with xyladecor,Lindan,PCP.So dont judge.
I do not want pleasurable effects as you say.Only feel ok,and no knives in my head(Depression) and only a concentration span of 2 hours a day.

But thank you.I think i will not find an answer here.
The 3mmc still helps,so does 2 mmc,Buproin was at 600 mg bad for my heart to.I do sport,eat healthy,fruits and so on.
I think you read to much drug stories here.
I wantet to know if 6/5Apb or 5MAPB in small dosages,not those where you say rolling;-) do crash after they were of.
MDPV did,ritalin did,dexis did,Amphetamine did,cocaine did.All crashed very hard.3 MMC well ok ich have to take 4 x 100 mg a day or more.But in the
evening no crash or so mild that ist ok.

But Thank you

Anja
 
sekio said:
OK, so citalopram has a benzofuran in it - so what? It doesn't tell you anything meaningful about the activity of 6apb. Ibuprofen has a benzene ring in it, does that mean it's carcinogenic like benzene? And also, there aren't any monoamine releasers like 6APB that are actually indicated for depression. Too much abuse potential.
Click to expand...

Whilst I agree whole-heartedly with 99% of your post, I must make the point that I'm sure you already know that when testing for anti-depressants, one of the first procedures they have is to see if rats will self-administer it, and if they do, it is instantly disregarded for use as a mainstream antidepressant. Seems a little counter-productive when trying to find a medication that alleviates depression, when the most obvious way of doing that would be to induce some joy or pleasure. However, that doesn't mean I disagree with anything you said - treating drug-induced anhedonia with neurotoxic drugs like cathiniones is an awful idea, and your post was right on.

To Student76, since you don't appear to be getting the message, do you realize that by continuing to use NEUROTOXIC substances to treat your DEPRESSION, your are ACTIVELY DESTROYING the neural circuits in your brain that cause any kind of pleasure, joy or happiness and therefore they can only be a temporary solution? You said yourself you got tolerant to 3-MMC, and now you describe "knives in your head" occurring upon the crash and you believe the solution is another drug - another untested, basically unknown research chemical to produce a fleeting feeling of joy. Don't you realize how totally ridiculous this is? If you ever want to find happiness without drugs then taking neurotoxins for temporary alleviation of depression is ridiculous.

You have also contradicted yourself. You started by saying you do not have ADHD, depression or schizophrenia, and I can sympathize in the knowledge that neuroleptics can induce an awful depression - I was forced onto them for three months (risperedone also) for a mild hypomanic episode, and after initially launching my hypomania into a mania when the sedation wore off, when I finally started taking them regularly (it was the only way to be uncommitted from the institution), it didn't stop at bringing me down from mania, it plunged me right into a depression, and for at least six months after going off of them I was in the worst depression of my life, so I feel for you if you've been poisoned by psychiatric drugs and feel hopeless after the institutions medications has let you down, but turning to self-medication with other drugs that will destroy your mind is an awful idea unless your plan is to be as happy as possible before you top yourself.

However, since you seem intent on numbing your pain with drugs rather than trying out sobriety, have you considered opiates? I guarantee that on opiates (especially the more "upper" type ones like oxycodone, or even heroin) you will not feel any kind of depression or pain and you will not be a "zombie". In normal circumstances I would never recommend anyone trying strong opiates, as I've seen them destroy several lives (including nearly my own) but by abusing stimulants you can do irreparable damage to your brain, whereas at least with opiates you can only do irreparable damage to your life as once withdrawals and P.A.W.S are over, your brain is the same as it always was, no matter how lengthy the period of abuse, which is more than I can say for severe stimulant abuse, especially untested RCs.

Above all I urge you to try life without drugs. If a year down the line after a healthy lifestyle you have made ZERO improvement, then you could always continue your self destruction where you left off. I know the hopeless void of depression that neuroleptics can induce in a non-schizophrenic, and it was awful and hopeless and if I didn't have such a lack of energy and motivation for those six months, or even believe I had any kind of capacity for joy left, I probably would have done the same you did - attempt to self-medicate with recreational drugs. But with time, I came out of it on my own, and let me tell you, coming out of that deep dark depression was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life, and happiness when sober is so much more rewarding in the long term than delaying an inevitable crash by masking your problems with drugs. Just my two cents.
 
Thank you rio Fantastic for the long answer.

Your text:You said yourself you got tolerant to 3-MMC, and now you describe "knives in your head" occurring upon the crash and you believe the solution is another drug - another untested, basically unknown research chemical to produce a fleeting feeling joy. Don't you realize how totally ridiculous this is? If you ever want to find happiness without drugs then taking neurotoxins for temporary alleviation of depression is ridiculous.

You say 3 MMC is neurotoxic.Is this really true?Ritalin is not?Amphetamine?I dont want joy.Only no depression.My normal self is deeply depressed and in a brain fog.
This was the normal self before all meds, and before 3MMC.So this probleme I have is endogenous doctors said.A brain desease.Not schizophrenic,but not funktional for work or live.
I took benzodiazepines for 10 years and the gave me Neuroleptics like risperdal to counter psychosis from ritaline or amphetamine.
I was a dumb as.I realized I could not write one sentence or work 2 hours.
If the 3-MMC and taking about 100 gramms in 3 years is really neurotoxic why no psychotic reaktions?why am I more funktional than the years before on Pharma meds from shrinks?

Greatful if you answer

Anja

This you understand wrong.I had the knives in my head befor starting 3-MMC,now the only problem is toleranze to the substance.Yes i believe an other drug in low dose is my only solution.Opiates I tried,like Tramadole,I know someone on eve and rave which takes buprenorphin if you know to selfmedicate.

Well my brain chemistrie was destroyed,or I developed a brain the only funktions 2 hours a day and then brain fog.If you realise this as you get older you will get depression.
I can reduce or try to get away from 3 MMC ,the sympthoms are similar to SSRI discountinuation syndrom.Brain zaps,and so an.
 
Ritalin (methylphenidate) and amphetamine, when used at appropriate dosages (e.g. < 30mg amphetamine and <50mg methylphenidate per diem), are not neurotoxic. Certainly they would be easier on the body and mind than large doses of cathinones, besides, amphet and MPH don't stimulate 5ht2b.

If the 3-MMC and taking about 100 gramms in 3 years is really neurotoxic why no psychotic reaktions?
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Psychosis is not the same as structural damage to the brain. Just like cardiac valve damage is not the same as feeling tension in your chest.
 
Can you for sure tell me that If I take a betablocker like 2.5mg bisoprolol and my bloodpressure is 120/80 and I have no heart problems I will for sure damage my heart?
I used 20 mg Amphetamine racemic here in sweden or 20 mg methylphenidat.

The crash every evening was horrible.And if I took them longer than 2 weeks I had racing thoughts,and was totally psychotic.Not with 3MMC 500 mg(5 x100mg) a day.
I think for some cathinones are milder on the brain.Bupropione lost its effect at 600 mg after a half year(had also heart problems on it).Strattera made me psychotic,and modafinil depressed in the evening as ritalin.
Triziclics and maos had no effect.As I studie pharmazie a can get every med (Not cocain;-)) so i think perhaps I will destroy my heart( I smoke also) but
I lived a life for a few years.The life without 3 MMC is nothing.I am an almost autistic person.No interesst in people or anything.With pharma meds the psychosis thing,and depression.
Well I think there could be lots of medications that would be more helpfull.But you cant patent them,and Pharmaindustrie is not interessed in helping people.Only big bussiness(Money)
Paroxetin for example,a part of it is from MDMA.Citalopram.A part of it is 5APB.Well the rest of them ist from Amphetamine.They modified the molekules that you can not abuse them any more.But then you will not have a true antidepressant.Only a thymolepticum.Something that blunts emotions.No joy,no depression,no emotions.
If you have a real life problem(ex. someone died) ok then take them for a few month.But if its a brain disease and endogen,than pharmaindustrie has nothing to offer.
They are banning every substanz ex.4MMC because of abuse.I think the few people who died on it are nothing compared to the thousands of suicides each year on antidepressiva.
Read Sertraline and Paroxetine.But well they are testet on animals and so must be good.I learned most shrinks follow only a schemata learned in unversitity, the DSM.
Each new shrink you go to , another med you get in 5 minutes.Well If you say no thank you,they throw you out:-)

I am looking here for someone who took 3 MMC longterm or 5/6 Apb and has still good health.I do not take this to get high,after a year daily,the 3 MMC works still.
But the way it works is i can more read,talk,work,concentrate.And have a normal mood.Not maniac or psychotic.I do not know why,no psychosis no racing thoughts. Methylone for example was bad for me.Depression afterwards.So MDPV ,also 2 FA, or 4 FA(psychosis on 10 mg).MDMA is to strong and there is no pure source for me.

But sekio thank you , perhaps you know someone with experience.

I know you only want to help me.But may brain was destroyed as a child.I think over 100 antibiotiks or that I lived in house with Xyladecor(LINDAN,PCP).Doctors do not know.
Dont you think when the brain reacts with psychosis to a substance than structural damage is going on?I read studies Ritalin reduces the brain mass in children.
Some said I should be stupid and my IQ nearly 0 after 3 years and 100 gramms 3mmc.But I find I remember things better then the years on SSRI and Neuroleptics.
Well I know its a dangerous way.Perhaps I die a view years later with cardiac valve damage.Without betablocker it would not work,extrem palpitations.I dont know.I hope,thats all i have.

Thank you

Your Anja from Sweden.
My english not the best:-)sorry if many mistakes;-)
 
If I get psychotic on 30 mg amphetamine?why upping the dose?
I cant sleep 3 days on 30mg or even 10mg.But with 400 mg 3-MMC I sleep normal and no psychotic episodes with racing thoughts.
Well for heart problems I take bisoprolol,Betablocker.
Heard of 5/6 APB low dose for depression?there where few studies for serotonin releasers on depression.But missuse was possible:-) so no pharma industrie hast interesst.

Thanks Anja
 
Student76 said:
If I get psychotic on 30 mg amphetamine?why upping the dose?
I cant sleep 3 days on 30mg or even 10mg.But with 400 mg 3-MMC I sleep normal and no psychotic episodes with racing thoughts.
Well for heart problems I take bisoprolol,Betablocker.
Heard of 5/6 APB low dose for depression?there where few studies for serotonin releasers on depression.But missuse was possible:-) so no pharma industrie hast interesst.

Thanks Anja
Click to expand...

Cathiniones have been conclusively proven to be neurotoxic. It's their mechanism of action - and yes, even amphetamine is neurotoxic. Methylphenidate works differently - as a reuptake inhibitor rather than a DA releaser it's one of the very few recreational stimulants that aren't neurotoxic, but even that is debatable and studies have found conflicting results. If you want to be functional why not try a period of healthy living and sobriety? Why write your brain off as totally destroyed when you haven't been off of drugs long enough to make any kind of judgement? Your brain fog and depression didn't start overnight so they won't go away overnight, but if you find any kind of improvement in six months then there's a lot of hope for you, you don't need to rely on cathiniones just to feel normal for the rest of your life, and you're only exacerbating the core problem.
 
You say you study pharmacology. Then I'd assume you know that all prescription drugs go through very rigorous preclinical and clinical tests before getting released onto the market. Once on the market they are monitored for any undetected side effects/signs of toxicity that weren't noted. In case of serious risk these drugs will be taken off the market.

3-MMC is not among these drugs. We don't really know all that much about it. There's a possibility all this 3-MMC (or its metabolites) you are taking is accumulating somewhere in the body, it might be harmless, or it might not be. For all we know 3-MMC or one of its metabolites are carcinogenic. These are things we don't know. We do know that 5HT-2B agonism is strongly indicated in heart valve disease. 5/6-APB are strong agonists of this receptor as well so long-term use should be avoided at all costs.

Have you considered that constant use of drugs (be it prescription ones or not) might be at the core of your depressive symptoms? No one likes being dependent on a substance in order to be able to function normally. It makes you feel weak and useless, or like a zombie. There's better ways out there to treat depression than with drugs, especially research chemicals, and ones that are highly likely to be dangerous for you in the long run at that. Actively try and do regular exercise, eat healthy. These two things in essence are what's wrong with most depressed people out there. You are a pharmacologist, have a look at academic studies done in this area. The results speak for themselves.

We weren't designed to sit on our asses all day long and eat McDonald's. Cavemen had to run around and hunt for their food, this is what made them feel alive, because it kept them alive. Obviously you don't need to do that, but simply getting your heart pumping and using your muscles releases all sorts of goodness in your brain and body. It's the way your body and mind tell each other you are actively trying to survive, and they'll adapt to make that easier for you. Happiness is something you have to work for, if it comes too easily you won't feel any satisfaction. Taking the easy way out and creating drug-induced happiness will only wear you out more in the long run. There is no magical pill that will fix all your problems, only you can do that yourself.

On a side note, you live in Sweden? It's pretty up north and you get less daylight than other more centrally located countries. Some people can develop depressive symptons due to a lack of sunlight. There's lights you can purchase that simulate sunlight, so called light therapy. It works for some, I don't know if you have looked into it?
 
I don't think comedown or even psychosis need to have to do anything to brain damage.

I'm impressed with how you managed to get to a university and study pharmacology. Where I live it's very hard to even get in there. With your problems it must have been very hard.

Have you seen the best doctors on your disease?
 
Sorry for the off-topic, but as I have read from the OP in other boards (e&r, ldt) there is so much conflicting information. Once she's Stefanie from Germany, then Anja from Sweden with the same story and nickname.

While it caught my attention at first and I was really interested as well as wanted to "help" as far as I am able to.. it's really curious.

Please! Tell us what is true. Keep a single identity etc.. and yeah, stim psychosis is what comes to my mind.
 
The brain necessarily changes in response to chemicals chronically administered. Whether that's damage or not by doctor/therapeutic method: probably not true. By your own experimentation it might be. These are generalizations, however.
 
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