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Tapering Benzo withdrawal: Losing my mind

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activating the reward pathways with drugs, especially stuff like ORT drugs, can increase craving for other drugs of abuse. Simply put, methadone or buprenorphine only delivers a fraction of D2 receptor activation, VMAT/VMAT2 receptor activation is largely absent, and people want to fill in the blanks with other drugs.

I used the whole mantra of "at least I'm not on heroin" all the way through five years of buprenorphine, about 9 months of daily methamphetamine use, and sporadically abusing a bunch of other drugs.

I have noticed other people who take methadone/ORT meds who have cravings for other hard drugs. It's not theoretically impossible for these drugs to create drug cravings for other drugs of abuse.

It's your life, and your call, but I thought I'd let you know my thoughts on this.

I can relate to that. Nicely put CH!
 
There's also reason to believe that through κ-opioid activation may lead to increased drug-seeking behavior under the pressure of stress. I was trying to understand it a bit more by doing some reading...

The involvement of the KOR in stress, as well as in consequences of chronic stress such as depression, anxiety, anhedonia, and increased drug-seeking behavior, has been elucidated.[11] KOR agonists are notably dysphoric and aversive at sufficient doses.[17] The KOR antagonists buprenorphine, as ALKS-5461 (a combination formulation with samidorphan), and CERC-501 (LY-2456302) are currently in clinical development for the treatment of major depressive disorder and substance use disorders.[18] JDTic and PF-4455242 were also under investigation but development was halted in both cases due to toxicity concerns.[18] (For more information on the KOR in drug addiction, see below.)

The depressive-like behaviors following prolonged morphine abstinence appear to be mediated by upregulation of the KOR/dynorphin system in the nucleus accumbens, as the local application of a KOR antagonist prevented the behaviors.[19] As such, KOR antagonists might be useful for the treatment of depressive symptoms associated with opioid withdrawal.[19]

In a small clinical study, pentazocine, a KOR agonist, was found to rapidly and substantially reduce symptoms of mania in individuals with bipolar disorder that were in the manic phase of the condition.[20] It was postulated that the efficacy observed was due to KOR activation-mediated amelioration of hyperdopaminergia in the reward pathways.

source
 
I'm not nearly as up on the pharmacology as i would like to be but I do agree with your anecdotal observation that ORT can increase cravings for other drugs. I come from a more phychological/sociological perspective in general so my reasoning skews that way. I like getting high and at the end of the day ORT lacks a consistent high. Which makes me want to potenate my dose with other downers or go the opposite direction and use stims. I just struggle dealing with stressors so I seek escape. It really fascinates me that my behavior is controlled by receptors, nuerons, and such but I can't help but think of it in simpler terms. I have no doubt that the next 20 years will bring about a revolution in the science of behavior from the perspective your presenting as we move away from the simpler explanations of the social sciences. Frankly from what I have come to believe ORT is a mere stop gap solution to a systemic problem in my life. In essence it slowed the bleeding but the wound remains.

I hope I survive long enough to figure all this out. I do appreciate what you are saying though. I even find myself agreeing in principal but it's always been the playing field between theory and practice where I get my ass kicked.
 
Where is that coming from CH? I am pretty sure cj already knows he only has a very limited degree of agency or control when it comes to his benzo use. Even if he didn't, I never understood how pointing out someone isn't in control (or, likewise, in denial) helps them address the fact they are out of control (or in denial).

And WTF is a disabled will? That term sounds like some pseudo-scientific 12 step gobbledigook if I ever heard any... :\ I have a feeling 12 step ideology will end up proving to be a lot like a pimple on the ass of time when it comes to how we understand addiction. When it comes to the "science" off addiction is far too confusion when it comes to the twelve steps, where anecdote is commonly treated as objective fact and moralizing taken is cloaked as fair, unbiased reason.
 
I have a disabled will when it comes to heroin/bupe. I realize I can't "just use once", because I will want to keep using.

The concept of will power wasn't invented by the AA crowd.

I just want CJ to realize it is a distinct possibility he won't be able to taper benzos by himself. Not saying he is incapable, but he might be.
 
I think that is my point though - will is not a black and white thing, and chalking it up to a matter of will is essentially to blame him, either for not having enough of it or not using it properly. We never have total control or total lack of control. Will is always a matter of degree. Impairment and agency perhaps are more useful ways of looking at self control than willpower IMHO.
 
I think it would be best to learn about what your strengths are CJ. I have learned what I am not good with and when I have to ask for help. The western outlook of "I can take care of this all by myself" is an admirable goal, but not always realistic.

That's all I meant.
 
Well honestly my taper is going the wrong direction. My daily dose has gone up over the last week. My life has been super stressful the last few weeks depressed pissed off ect. Been doing a little too much IV blow as well
 
That sounds like the holidays.

But lets call this what it is... Well, whatever we call this, lets call it something other than a taper.

What is causing all the stress in your day to day life cj? Just the whole situation you're in? It sounds so overwhelming. It reminds me of when I was on methadone. The fact you are currently on methadone isn't the parallel I am drawing. Rather when I was on methadone I was at a point in my life where I felt very trapped. Perhaps you feel similarly?

I have a feeling shooting coke will increase the level of stress. Was shooting coke ever a thing for you?
 
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using cocaine can increase your BP over the long-term, even after quitting. This might be increasing your anxiety.

It can also contain levamisole, and may be cut with other shit.

Definitely try to avoid shooting cocaine if you can.
 
That sounds like the holidays.

But lets call this what it is... Well, whatever we call this, lets call it something other than a taper.

What is causing all the stress in your day to day life cj? Just the whole situation you're in? It sounds so overwhelming. It reminds me of when I was on methadone. The fact you are currently on methadone isn't the parallel I am drawing. Rather when I was on methadone I was at a point in my life where I felt very trapped. Perhaps you feel similarly?

I have a feeling shooting coke will increase the level of stress. Was shooting coke ever a thing for you?

Your right its not a taper its an addiction. An addiction that is currently getting worse. Just took 2mg which brings daily dose too 3.5 mg 48 hour dose to 10 mg probably? I don't like shooting coke. My new "best friend" really likes to do it and when we hang out I naturally end up doing a little. Just 2 or 3 shots but enough to throw me into asshole mode. This friend is also my only benzo connect so cutting him off is no option and I actually really do like him he is a good dude overall.

I feel extremely trapped. I am facing administratively discharge from methadone on the 22nd of January if I don't end up with a benzo script. Its the fucking holidays and I made a dick of myself at our large family Christmas cause I was exhausted from not sleeping and stress. That's the other thing my insomnia is back. I feel beyond trapped. I have the number too 2 croaker script writer docs but if I strike out with them its back to the hospital for that brutal ass 4 day 10 grand detox. Yay!

Maybe getting back on heroin is the way to go. I think I have access to pure fentanyl over the long run. I quit the methadone take the bus north or west to a state with decent social services. I pay 17 dollars a day for methadone as of January 1 fuckers went up again. I just started this EMDR therapist but I have very little faith in her shes a 12 step pushing anti-methadone doctor who happens to have a sub doctor located in her office. I guess they don't teach ethics at Alabama universities or maybe they just don't care about people addicted to drugs. probably the latter.

No shooting blow was never a thing to me. Id rather shoot meth or mdpv if I had to shoot uppers. Id rather shoot downers if it was my pick though.

I am spinning to the Earth I see it coming. The question is starting to become when do I pull the rip cord or fire the shotgun. I am not kicking 170mg methadone habit with a large benzo habit at the same time so no rehab. It seems like suicide is the best way out.

I truly am sorry to the people that have cared and supported me. I love you all. I just feel like I am running headlong into a wall.
Hust took another 2mg cause fuck it.
8mg and im just now where I wanna be. This is going to have such a bad ending.
 
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