benzo question (sublingual)

[SPC123]

In case you missed it before, if you consider my previous post either immature or an example of dick sizing, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Sublingual should result in a faster onset and peak plasma level. To answer the question directly, the reason they make sublingual tables is to decrease the time required to dissolve the tablet. Here's the difference, per Pfizer Canada's Ativan product monograph:

Each 0.5 mg, 1 mg, 2 mg Ativan tablet contains:
Lactose, Magnesium Stearate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Polacrilin Potassium.
Each 0.5 mg, 1 mg and 2 mg Ativan Sublingual tablet contains:
Lactose, Magnesium Stearate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Corn Starch.

As you can see, the only difference between the two is polacrilin potassium (a common pill disintegrant) and corn starch, something we're all familiar with.

There is no major difference as far as drug formulation for sublingual administration. In other words, the drug is exactly the same in both formulations. The main differences are taste and speed of dissolution. If you don't mind the taste and can wait an extra few minutes for the pill to dissolve, there is no benefit in purchasing the sublingual formulation over the oral.

I hope this ends any silly debate on the matter.

 

[Tripman]

I think he means everyone else.

TBH I wasn't dick-sizing. Just wishing to get kokaino to drop his age argument and realise everyone in the thread disagrees with him.

EDIT:

and thank you by the way polymath, age doesn't matter.

 

[effie]

effie, finally someone with clear-head.

Thank you.

My original arguement was that for some benzos it is not necessarily true that there is a faster onset when taking a pill/not SL wafer or tablet. I said that there may be a quicker onset but it would be insignificant. Midazolam and triazolam are obviously not one of these benzos I was talking about. There is a difference though, one midazolam is highly lipophilic and water soluble, while triazolam is highly lipophilic.

I think matters have become muddy as there are a few slightly different debates going on in this thread.

Addressing this one - I can see that studies looking at midazolam can't be used to show that all benzodiazepines would follow the same pattern, as it is water soluble unlike most benzos and logically this could have a bearing. Triazolam is not, however. Regarding lipophilicity, diazepam is also highly lipophilic and alprazolam is fairly lipophilic so I don't think that sets triazolam apart from the benzos mentioned in the OP's post. Again, it also doesn't follow that results can be extrapolated to cover all benzos, but equally it doesn't show that other benzos will not behave in the same way when delivered sublingually.

There are a lot of benzos that you'll get a benefit from taking them sublingually (even oral tablets), but others produce differences that aren't significant.

We've seen one study where the results were not statistically significant due to a small sample size. If you're talking clinical/real world significance (as in not using the scientific meaning of significance but the more general one) not statistical significance, I would say we have more evidence to suggest that actually there is a difference - subjective at least. We don't have enough data to prove without doubt an objective (measured plasma concentration) difference for alprazolam, although as I said, taking into account the results of that one study alongside the evidence not just of the people posting here, but others across Bluelight and the opinions of psychiatrists, I think overall it is likely that yes there is a difference.

I have tried this and did well with some benzos and failed with many others.

Others found differently. Either we can disregard personal opinion entirely and focus on studies, or we can consider not just your opinion and experience but the opinion and experience of others.

My point is that oral tablets are not like orally disintegrating wafers or tablets. They work differently. I think I have enough years of reading and literally studing benzos and plus personal experience with enough benzos (a total of 19 different ones) to know that they work differently from each other and they work differently from individual to individual.

This does not follow to me. Your first two statements may be correct, although there are numerous papers using oral tablets sublingually and finding they are effective (which I can dig out if needed haha but am multitasking here) but then going on to bring in your personal experience into it, and saying they work differently from individual to individual is making a big jump. If we take your experience into account (which I think we should here, given the lack of definitive studies and also as you point out the variability from person to person, and the fact that evidence base is never going to be absolutely infallible) then we also have to take into account the experience of others too. Right?

Age is not something I think we need to consider, however.

It's like I said, I've been using these drugs since these kids were in the first grade. I'm not trying to be arrogant by saying that, I'm being dead honest about the situation.

I don't think anyone is being dishonest here, we are having a debate..

 

[SPC123]

I didn't disagree with him so much as show him to be absolutely incorrect using empirical information from one of the worlds largest pharmaceutical companies.

There is right, there is wrong, and there is disagreement somewhere in the middle. In this instance, there really isn't a middle ground.

 

[effie]

^ SPC, I missed that while writing my reply, but thank you - I was hoping someone could bring some evidence to show that.

 

[tricomb]

In case you missed it before, if you consider my previous post either immature or an example of dick sizing, I'm not sure what to tell you

@SPC, that post was not directed at you, I was replying to kokaino.

 

[SPC123]

Yeah, I kinda figured. But it gave me an excuse to repost something factual that it seemed a lot of people had missed in the somewhat heated debate. So thank you for that.

 

[Escapedysphoria]

I'm not nearly as intelligent as the mods in this argument, but how the hell is personal experience and the amount of benzodiazepines you've taken even relevant to this argument?... or your age? There's plenty of people younger than me that are more intelligent as well as those that are older that are far less intelligent. That honestly just appears to be dicksizing... This whole thread concerning a quite simple question has been turned into a giant debate haha.

Sublingual administration clearly has a more rapid onset than swallowing the tablet. Clinical studies, countless experienced and intelligent individuals, and I myself can vouch for that. In example, when I was prescribed the 10mg diazepam tabs I would barely notice any effects (other than keeping my anxiety at bay and keeping me at baseline), unless I took it sublingually, the rapid onset made the effects much more prominent and took care of a panic attack notably faster. I used this ROA for the rest of my benzo scripts in the past, except for alprazolam which was due to the awful taste.

 

[SPC123]

^ SPC, I missed that while writing my reply, but thank you - I was hoping someone could bring some evidence to show that.

NP Effie. Although even without my post, I think you've made the point marvelously. Particularly in regard to personal experience and the logical fallacy of relying on ones own while ignoring others.

 

[effie]

Haha. Who'd have thought sublingual benzodiazepines could inspire such debate? :D

Thank you SPC for providing facts and not fueling the fire. Healthy debate is a good thing I think, but childish responses, dick sizing and not being prepared to listen to others' opinions is not. I am glad to see people becoming so passionate about pharmacology but let's try to at least pretend we are all adults here, yeah?

edit: thanks!

 

[SPC123]

I think you make a good point, but you haven't told me how old you are, so I'm not sure if I can believe you...

 

[scramdor]

This can reduce the peak plasma concentration, not to a great extent however.

Dear lord what did we start. You make a statement about peak plasma concentration, and I offer I piece of information I read, and now we got a huge debate on our hands.

 

[ako5048]

use diazys subligually

diazepam under the tongue is definatly is the way to go its stronger effect and also quicker effect are a god send ive taken
75 mg and drank 30 units of alcohol and i feel good all cos i took it sublingualy try it if u havent trust me

 

[weekend addiction]

Just get it in your stomach. Your stomach is acidic unlike your mouth and will break anything down just fine.

 

[pirates_]

Hi

If u hold Xanax / Valium under your tongue does it have a quicker on set?

Thanks

be warned. Alprazolam (xanax) is the WORST tasting substance I have ever had the unpleasure of ingesting. Not only does it taste bad, but the taste does not leave swiftly. It lingers, more so when you do it under your tongue.

 

[Tony Williams]

Very quick..........

Clonaz seems to be oral only??

Now I find oral vs sub the same mg for mg with Xanax and Diaz.

the difference only being the onset

Xanax subbed usualy takes 10mins-20mins and diaz 15-25mins (in gen it's 20min)

Orally if you are on an empty stomach then it's similer maybe just a bit longer to hit and it climbs maybe. However w/ food 40min usually.

Snorting you get like a small %% hit >10m then later oral drip hits - snorting seems useless.

Subbing bupe hits after 30-40min and takes 2-3hr to peak. Oral would probs be 2hr to hit and >5hr peak however it's 3.5x weaker than subligal. Snorting bupe takes 15mins but peaks at 45m.

Midazolam this can be snorted and has a rush to it which is near amazing but with tolerence becomes blacking out.

Etizolam - NOT a benzo HOWEVER it DOES appear to work snorted even though it's NOT water souble - can be oral too.

THIS IS ALL BASED ON EXP over the years of my drug use and I have used stopwatches also and expermented.

 

[likeakite]

I guess if you have food in your belly

 

[mind-explorer]

Yeah, sublingual kicks a little bit faster, but it seems to be a bit weaker. Anyway I prefer oral administration...

 

[Kindbudz]

be warned. Alprazolam (xanax) is the WORST tasting substance I have ever had the unpleasure of ingesting. Not only does it taste bad, but the taste does not leave swiftly. It lingers, more so when you do it under your tongue.

You haven't tried liquid morphine I would suppose then lol that shit is, well.... catshit bitter.

 

[Kindbudz]

diazepam under the tongue is definatly is the way to go its stronger effect and also quicker effect are a god send ive taken
75 mg and drank 30 units of alcohol and i feel good all cos i took it sublingualy try it if u havent trust me

You took --75mg-- of diazepam? Valium to be precise? Damn dude, and I thought my blackout tolerance for benzos was high. I just hopped on here to look at kpin use since I got some of the 1mgs. Ate 3 last night with 20mg of hydro and some shwag puffs and I was time traveling 5 minutes into the future like every 10 mins. Waking up to see my diablo 3 char just chillin. My brain shut off every time I got done looting lol. But man... I still can't believe that didn't put you in a coma.