Bad effects from speed

[Fry-d-]

^^Runner, while I think people may have misinterpreted your response I completely agree with you.
A blanket IV drug use is for morons is just stupid. There is nothing worse about IV drug use than snorting drugs apart from the social stigma. There’s nothing that makes snorting a chemical any more safe. That said you’ve more chance of burning a hole in your nose. Assuming pure chemicals were being used and the proper method taken when preparing your shot IV use could actually be safer.
However IV'n unclean drugs or drugs which you have no idea about, i.e. street speed, really is playing Russian roulette IMHO

 

[SeveredPsyche]

You could drop from 1 pill or 1ml too much GHB. Admittedly, these occur a lot less frequently than with IV, but the only way to be completely sure about any drug use is not to do it.
Runner, we (including yourself) have addressed some concerns by recommending filters etc. However, this doesn't change the possibilty that what you injecting may not be speed (smack, whatever).
When I've received K pills sold as E, I've been pretty pissed off, but also thankful it wasn't anything worse. Illegal drug use is a gamble, a guessing game, and it's up to the individual how far they want to take it.
If people choose to shoot street gear, don't call them a moron, I'm sure they've heard it all before. Express the opinion that you don't think it is a good idea, then, if they choose to go ahead, offer them advice on how to minimise the damage they do to themselves.
Because you don't have complete control over what you are getting, at least make the most of what you do have control over.

 

[Flexistentialist]

While injecting is the riskiest route of administration, calling people who do it "fucking morons" is not in the interest of harm reduction, despite what you might think.
In fact, discrimination against IV drug users is often considered a large part of the reason why they won't seek help if something goes wrong etc. It causes people to hide their habits, makes information seeking more difficult (like who's gonna post questions about IV drug use if you call them a fucking moron?).
Leave the moralising to the religious right, and John Howard.
People choose to IV street drugs. Fact.
You calling them fucking morons isn't gonna do shit, except exclude them more from society, and make them less likely to ask questions that might be of practical benefit to them.
In the interest of HM. Are you kidding?
[ 31 January 2003: Message edited by: Flexistentialist ]

 

[DiSturBeD_1]

Hmm so that all made a lot of sense to me.... err
Believe me after seeing how many of my friends have fucked up badly from IV i would recommend that you do not do it. If you dont go there then you are not gonna miss anything (well except fucking your life up) In fact I know of one guy who IV's who isnt fucked up. Mind you 10 years or so ago he was fucked up by it BIG time. Have any of you noticed how bad IV users are? A guy I know was having 2.5g of crystal a day. Real strong shit, not that street crap. Before long he was doing robberies, car thefts, assaults... the usual bad shit, then the cops got him. He has a kid and all and now he's fucked everything up for himself.
Anyway that is not the point of my original post, a friend asked me for help in finding information and i asked on here as i value the comments.
The gear that he had was VERY clean, not your usual street crap (that said a germ/bacteria/wateva is microscopic) I told him it probably had to do with him lacking Dopamine as was mentioned above. He takes magnesium tablets to combat this usually.
I would appreciate comments on what it may be, not telling me he is a dickhead for doing it as i already know that but atleast i can help him perhaps.
regards
DiSTurBeD

 

[Runner]

Hmmm... to all this, I will only make one analogy to dispel this hypocrisy.
Why don't we start a thread of safe ways to administer PMA, and general support for PMA users.
"60mg is safe... 120mg is dangerous! This puts a strain on your system. Whatever you do, don't take more then 120mg...be safe people, I KNOW you are going to do PMA...so for harm minimisation make sure you take only 50mg - 100mg! Be safe people!"
Did I just sound like a moron advocating the use of PMA that has claimed so many lives already and has been so harshly condemed on this forum?
(gee, i wonder how many more lives IV use of meth has claimed? due to overdose, dirty shots etc.)
Some will now continue giving me shit, but hopefully some would have understood better
what I am trying to say.
There ARE lines which upon crossing over, put you in a category of a MORON.
Fry-D: I obviously do not deny as I've stated before that providing, you were given a pharmaceutical grade meth, it would be safer to inject. BUT if your meth is contaminated, intranasal administration is of course a whole degree safer. For the following reasons:
a. absorbition rate/amount are not as high as IV
b. water insolubles that cause organ microscarring (particularly liver) do not pass intranasally into the blood stream
c. some chemicals will effect the skill layer causing purhaps acute burns but will not enter the blood stream.
And remember people, meth is a clear glass like crystaline substance that can also be crushed into very fine white powder. If your meth is not like that, then it is nothing less then SHIT no matter how much rush it gives you. Find a dealer that can provide you with a clean drug. Get educated and educate your dealer and the same revolution will happen as did with pills and pill testers.

 

[Runner]

Disturbed:
one possible reason is an overdose. Many people consider the word overdose to be something you end up with before you die. However, an acute overdose is in fact what we desire when we take speed! The CNS stimulation is a result of an acute overdose.
You friend is perhaps experiencing a much more severe case of an overdose. Some part of his meth might have just been more concentrated then another etc.
Have a read the amphetamine section of this:
http://www.emergenza2000.it/ARTICOLI/04_02/APRIL_01.htm

 

[BigTrancer]

How about this:
"]Injecting drugs is a HIGH RISK behaviour. If you choose to take on this risk, here are some things you vitally need to be aware of:... (IV drug use harm minimisation and vein care information here)"
BigTrancer

 

[phase_dancer]

Runner; while I realize your comments are rather “tongue in cheek” there are many clear reasons why meth cannot be classified in the same way as PMA when referring to overdose potential and advising safe methods of use.

Here’s a couple

PMA is usually sold as Ecstasy, so the initial and perhaps most dangerous aspect of PMA is that someone may take it believing it to be MDMA. As a 60-100mg dose of PMA can appear like a weak dose of MDMA, more of the drug can be consumed on this belief leading to possible hyperthermia, edema or heatstroke. This potential for overdose with PMA substitution is very different from that posed by a medium dose of meth, substituted for MDMA in a tablet.

Meth is usually far more forgiving in cases of overdose. Although severe reactions have been reported from doses of as little as 30mg of amphetamine, it has also been reported that overdoses involving 10X plus this amount have not resulted in death. This is undoubtedly more applicable to someone with a strong meth habit, but not neccesarily. (Ref: Goodman and Gilman's "The pharmacological basis of therapeutics" 6th Ed)

Neither drug is safe, but history shows us that meth can be used by some people for years without obvious health problems. PMA on the other hand has never been examined on such a scale of use. Most accounts of PMA use which surface are usually accompanied by reports of the adverse and the highly dangerous effects the drug has caused. I have no harm minimisation advice to offer on PMA use other than to abstain, whereas with meth there are several worthy bits of advice to offer.

Although clear / white crystals of meth can be some indication that care has been taken to present a cleaner product, white or clear crystals are no guarantee of a pure product. Many of the possible contaminants are also clear when crystallized and may have similar boiling points and solubility properties, making the usual distillation and solvent crystallization techniques inadequate.

Many cooks can’t even separate un-reacted pseudoephedrine from their product, so it is doubtful in many cases that lab standard procedures are carried out at all. Pseudo reduction using HI/RP, Birch, or some electro reductive methods, all have potential to produce side reaction compounds which in turn can undergo aldol condensation in strongly basic conditions to produces myriads of inactive but likely toxic compounds.

Bypassing first pass metabolism with intravenous use exposes organ cells to these compounds (contaminants, impurities etc) where cytogenic, mutagenic or even teratogenic toxicity can occur. Many of these chemicals, particularly some of the diphenyl compounds, could also prove to be neurotoxic.

When consumed via insufflation these compounds are mostly absorbed by tiny capillaries located in mucous membranes, or in the case of oral administration, directly absorbed through the gut. Much will pass through the liver where such compounds are prioritized and prepared via oxidation/reduction etc for secondary metabolism. The idea is to reduce the toxicity of the substance and produce a form which is easy to eliminate. This does not always end up the case. Some substances can be “activated” by liver enzymes and become compounds of higher toxicity.

However, despite this it is generally agreed that in the case of non-pharmaceutical grade drugs, suggesting forms of administration which completely bypass first pass metabolism is not desirable advice from a harm reduction perspective.
Your interpretation of the linked page maybe somewhat incorrect.

Acute amphetamine overdose manifests itself via stimulation of the cardiovascular and central nervous systems.
This does not imply that sympathomimetic activity is caused by overdose. This is where a good understanding of dose response curves allows one to see that desired effects as well as toxic effects are the result of a concentration gradient (slope) relative to the physiological responses, and usually represented by a sigmoid curve. The point which toxicity occurs is the threshold, described as the point where the body’s ability to detoxify or repair injury is exceeded. It is not necessarily the level at which psycho activity is first noted, and is definitely not the case with amphetamine or meth, which causes notable effects at a level far below the considered toxic threshold.

Check out this site for a wonderful tutorial on toxicity
http://www.sis.nlm.nih.gov/ToxTutor/Tox1/amenu.htm

 

[Runner]

phase_dancer: good point with PMA. I agree. Your arguement is quite correct that "PMA is sold as E" so the risk is high. However, my initial point was much the same: "dirty shitty substances are sold as meth".
Our two statements are quite analogous. Wouldn't you agree? In fact average street gear is about 10% meth and 90% cut products (often ones that don't even mix up properly when loading the rig) and toxic impurities resulting from bad synths of which I am sure you are well aware of.
Now as I've stated before, dirty shitty substances are safer (if you wanna call it that) to take orally then IV and preferably not taken at all if dirty.
This brings me to the point of purity.
Again 100% agree with you that clear crystals don't mean meth is pure, however, it already eliminates a whole bunch of known impurities. So I guess, that is as safe as you can possibly get without getting your hands on GS/MS.
As with overdose, you might be right, and a lot of people don't reach the threshhold point, but IMHO the rapid increase in heart rate after a meth hit is a clear example where the body has failed to stabilise it self/detox (ie. past the threshhold point) and began its way up the sigmoid curve. I mean, kids that are prescribed dexies don't have a permanent increased heart rate do they? Correct me if I am wrong. That is because their dose is NOT an over-dose.
Mild pure meth hits (5mg) will certainly cause phycoactivity to a certain degree, but i am sure that is not good enough for most people.
And finally, some people previously in this thread have sounded like "they will do it anyways, so lets provide good info for harm minimisation"
to that I say: "people will not use pill testers, so here is a harm minimisation tip - keep a phone on you so you can call the ambulance if your pill is shit"
or "people will mix coke and smack anyways, so for harm minimisation, make sure you only have a little dose!"
Instead of harm minimising some obviously stupid things, why not say DON'T DO IT in the first place.
Sorry everyone for being sarcastic, but I feel that is the only way to get my point across. No offence intended to anyone.

 

[startenhash]

Originally posted by Runner:
startenhash: your advice sounds along the same lines of what I have heard before: If someone has had too much smack and is ODing, shoot some speed into him quickly to bring him back.
Great advice that one...but yours beats even that one!!!
i was not so much offering advice, as giving a user experience of what i have done, and what has worked for me in such situations.
of course it could be the gear that is dirty - that hasn't been my experience though. it has been my own fault, ie. i dropped the needle on the floor, and continued to use it without cleaning it.
that was very stupid of me. however i realised this was my error, and not a result of the gear.
oh and i wasn't the only one who made that comment runner so why are you picking on me?
[ 31 January 2003: Message edited by: startenhash ]

 

[DarkieX]

I'd just like to say having another shot after a dirty one is not the best thing to do.
It does however releave the pain of having a dirty shot when you have a clean one.

 

[BigTrancer]

phase_dancer

 

[phase_dancer]

Runner wrote:

As with overdose, you might be right, and a lot of people don't reach the threshhold point, but IMHO the rapid increase in heart rate after a meth hit is a clear example where the body has failed to stabilise itself/detox

This is not really the case and yet in a strangely paradoxical way it is. What needs to be understood here is what represents acute toxicity.

All drugs are toxins. Any substance which significantly alters homeostasis can be considered toxic. The dose is as mentioned, a deciding factor, but so is the integrity of the specific target system and degree of expected response. If the action of the drug helps to restore homeostasis or “normal state conditions” within non-metabolism dependant dosages, it is reasonable to say a subject suffering a condition for which the medication is designed to help may tolerate higher doses before toxic levels are reached.

The opposite of course also applies. Should someone with high blood pressure and arteriosclerosis take an alpha and Beta1 agonist, the lethal dose may be very low as these receptors control arterial constriction and heart rate. (But someone with low blood pressure and a healthy heart could perhaps tolerate several times this dose)

This is a rather simplistic representation, and many other factors can of course contribute towards and affect an outcome.

In brief, relative to cardiovascular actions:
Alpha 1 and 2 adrenoreceptor agonists => Vascular constriction
Beta 1 adrenoreceptor agonists => Heart rate increase
Beta 2 adreno receptors agonists => Vascular dilation

The natural body (endogenous) chemicals which affect these systems are noradrenaline (NA or norepinephrine) and adrenaline (epinephrine)

Amphetamine has strong CNS and peripheral actions. Primarily, amphetamine is a noradrenaline releaser. It does this by mimicking NA, and so is taken up by presynaptic receptors (known as uptake 1) after binding to the carrier molecule.
Once inside the cell it moves into the vesicle (storing NA) via another carrier molecule. Vesicle migration of amphetamine causes previously stored NA to be released. Amphetamine also reduces NA reuptake (the NA release control system) and inhibits mono amine oxidase (required to break down endogenous and other sympathomimetic amines). Extracellular levels of NA then markedly increase. It is this NA which mostly affects the heart rate, and BP.

Amphetamine also causes release of serotonin and dopamine from respective nerve terminals, and all three are involved in CNS responses. This is added to by probable increase in the biosynthesis of dopamine from the amphetamine released precursor noradrenaline.

At different dosages amphetamine and methamphetamine differ considerably in their peripheral and CNS actions. Methamphetamine is considered the more potent of the two in regards to CNS activity.

From Goodman and Gillman's The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics

Methamphetamine is closely related to amphetamine and ephedrine. Its pharmacological actions are similar to those of amphetamine, but it [meth] exhibits a different ratio between central and peripheral actions. Small doses have prominent CNS effects without significant peripheral actions; somewhat larger doses produce a sustained rise in systolic and diastolic blood pressure due in man mainly to cardiac stimulation. Cardiac output is increased although the heart maybe reflexly slowed.
Methamphetamine is principally used for its CENTRAL EFFECTS which are more pronounced than those of amphetamine and are accompanied by less prominent peripheral actions…..

What this is basically saying is that meth at low doses causes CNS effects and little cardiac effect involving peripheral circulation.
High doses can actually cause depression of the heart muscle. Amphetamine on the other hand increases both cardiac and CNS effects at low doses, with higher doses increasing heart rate further.

A possible reason for users experiencing a sudden increase in heart rate after a lower dose of street meth (5-15mg) could be explained by the level of unreacted pseudoephedrine in the speed. Ephedrine causes systolic and diastolic pressure increases and may or may not result in a higher heart rate. I believe this is often the thumping heart feeling experienced after a line of supposed meth.

Runner, this is in line with what you mentioned regarding purity. Many people claim to take a half point or more of base, crystal whatever. However, I believe most street whiz base is way less than 50% purity, with most of the contaminant being unreacted pseudoephedrine. It’s not always the case mind you. Anyone with half a brain and a conscience to go with it would be able to get around a 90% conversion with normal techniques, and be able to separate the rubbish.

If we were to examine each of the pharmacological properties of any drug, particularly sympathomimetic amines, we could draw up separate response curves to measure specific changes in BP, heart rate etc. and we would find each would have different dose level characteristics. This is because the binding affinity/ efficacy is different between types of receptor. This is also affected by the body’s efforts to maintain homeostasis, which may increase detoxification by increasing enzyme availability, reduce availability of the receptor through down regulation (more chronic use related), or even prevent activity through preferential binding from a natural antagonist - as seen in the case of some opiates.

 

[DiSturBeD_1]

Speaking of a dirty hit, another friend of mine once got some gear off of a dealer and noticed that the bag was not quite clean. He IV and felt like absoloute shit, like he was going to die. When he asked the guy what was wrong with the gear he said that it was real strong shit and that he couldnt of not felt anything. However asking further questions he found out that the bag had pot in it previously and that there was thc crystals in the bag with the speed. The dealer didnt know he was IVing it, nor did he probably care till the guy rang him complaining.
Pretty fucked up dont you think. like i said before after seeing how many of my friends are fucked up from IV drug use you will understand why i atleast try to help them when they seem interested in helping themselves.

 

[Runner]

phase_dancer: brilliant info. Couldn't agree more with everything you say...it even makes me forget what the original discussion was about, but no matter, many will learn something. (including myself!
Street speed is indeed around 20%-15% and less purity.
I do experience an increase in heart rate after I smoke some good meth. It is definetelly not the pseudoephedrine because I smoke about half a point and assuming there is maybe 10% pseudo in it, 5mg of pseudo should have no effect.
Mind you, my heart doesn't jump but does increase the rate. So obviously, the NA is doing its job right?
But back to your point of pseudo being a strong beta-agonist, and linking it back to my point of dangers of IVing, imagine a junkie taking a hit of 5% meth/95% pseudo. And after a half weight does little, another half weight is consumed. Now imagine if the junkie also suffers from high blood pressure. That's 950mg of pseudo! Now being a beta-agonist, in simple terms, the amount of high per increase in heart rate is little. So the junkie IVing 950mg, would be in serious trouble. (had he ingested it, he might have been safer since the absorbtion rate would have been slower)
Disturbed: i don't know just how fucked up your friends are because of IVing, but I can tell you I've seen the real world of IVing...and it doesn't involve partying, raves, music, fun... these people have never even had an E. There is a whole world out there where meth and jail is life. I've been unlucky enough to once come in contact with it. These people will sell their mother for a hit and would feel more comfortable in a jail cell. I am talking about the true junkies, and if anyone here knew just what kind of people I am talking about, you'd all change your tune about what IVing can and WILL do in a lot of cases.

 

[Flexistentialist]

I work in a needle exchange, so I've seen the real world of IV drug use. Every day in fact. I've seen abscesses, gangrene, guns, everything.
Calling people who IV street drugs "fucking morons" is counter harm reduction. You will never change my opinion on that, regardles of how much "real world" experience you claim to have.
Moralising doesn't work. If you actually sat down and talked to some of the "hardcore junkies better off in jail" you will realise that IV drug use is but one of several very deep, complex issues that have led to them being where they are.
To infer these people are just morally bankrupt is an over-simplification, that in no way refelcts the complexity of problems facing street based IV drug users.
You post doesn't reflect much real world experience at all. Rather it reflects too much "A Current Affair".

 

[Runner]

Flex:
a. I called IV users "fucking morons" not based on "street experience" but based on what I have stated in my previous posts to do with the associated dangers etc. A few interesting points have arisen out of the discussion with phase_dancer but i am still of my initial opinion that the best harm reduction advice is: "DON'T IV ***street*** speed" (unless you purify it yourself yada yada).
b.

Moralising doesn't work. If you actually sat down and talked to some of the "hardcore junkies better off in jail" you will realise that IV drug use is but one of several very deep, complex issues that have led to them being where they are
I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I've never said anyone is better off in jail. I've said many junkies know only two things - meth and jail, and anything else is based around getting a hit and staying away from jail for as long as you can. I know for a fact that no matter how fucked your life might have been, if things are going for you, you can be alright, but as soon as something bad happens and you get on the gear, nothing matters anymore. I've seen it... I've lost a best friend to it. I don't know what kind of people you see, but I've seen people that live it, think it, deal it, use it, do the worst you can imagine and worse for it, love it, worship it, dedicate every minute of their life to it. These aren't problem rebel kids or someone that "has a problem". These are but grown men probably older than many on this forum. All put together is all their life and everything else is for IT too. I'll say no more. Everyone who IVs runs a risk of turning into that. Because you just can't beat it can you?
So let's see...I've brought up a meriad of dangers associated with IV and i've described remotelly what I have seen of the end point of the IV cycle. How many people wanna try IV now? Just once? That nice "ox blood" brown goo that "Mr. Skeleton with a leision that talks like a smart ass all the time" says is "kuta"?
Oh and here is a joke some might find funnier than others:
q: "What's the difference between a thief and speed-junkie?"
a: "Both will steal from you but the speed-junkie will help you look for it."

 

[startenhash]

Originally posted by DiSturBeD_1:
Speaking of a dirty hit, another friend of mine once got some gear off of a dealer and noticed that the bag was not quite clean. He IV and felt like absoloute shit, like he was going to die. When he asked the guy what was wrong with the gear he said that it was real strong shit and that he couldnt of not felt anything. However asking further questions he found out that the bag had pot in it previously and that there was thc crystals in the bag with the speed. The dealer didnt know he was IVing it, nor did he probably care till the guy rang him complaining.

yeah that's rude, i have to specify to dealers that i iv, because one of them once gave me speed in the bottom of an empty cigarette packet.
but hey you cant expect dealers to be reliable (although they should be, its their business)

 

[BigTrancer]

I'd really like to get back on topic, please. In the fourth post in this thread, Flexistentialist posted the idea that a short-term bacterial infection called 'cotton fever' could have been the culprit. I'd be keen to hear from any other people who've experienced cotton fever, and can confirm whether this could represent the problem that the original poster described.
Discussion of the relative merits and risks of IV drug use would be better left to a thread where it is relevant. Regurgitating a debate about whether IV drug use is good, bad, safe, dangerous, cool, boring or sexy really isn't getting the question answered.
BigTrancer

 

[DiSturBeD_1]

Thankyou BigTrancer.
He doesnt use a filter so it could not of been a 'cotton fever' reaction. When i asked him about it he said "I'm a rough cunt i just whack it in, no filter... nothing"
It didnt effect him straight away, initially it felt like he was sitting funny and his lower back was aching, then all of a sudden he had a real bad headache and had to lay down for a few hours and put ice on his head<-- i just spoke to his gf an hour ago and she xplained it better for me
any relative comments would be good
cheers
DiSturBeD
-the darkness is calling me