Obyron
Bluelight Crew
The Anti-Masonic Party is ancient history, and the primary reason that modern masonic lodges may not discuss politics or religion in their meetings. It's been a GOOD THING for Freemasonry.
An eye inside a triangle with rays of light has long been a symbol of Divine Providence and the all-seeing eye of god. The symbol traces back to the monotheistic worship of Aten in the reign of Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten ~1300 years before the (alleged) birth of Christ. It probably dates back even further as a symbol of Ra. It probably made its way to Christianity (and Freemasonry) in much the same way every other de rigeur religious symbol was appropriated by the Catholic Church. The eye-in-a-triangle-with-rays-of-light is used in Masonry to represent the all-seeing nature of God, and this is the sense in which it's used on the Great Seal. HOWEVER, the "Eye & Pyramid" motif used on the great seal, and much beloved of Illuminati conspiracists is NOT a masonic symbol.
Not really sure what to make of your first picture. The double-headed eagle is used as a symbol by the Scottish Rite, but it is also a common heraldic symbol that dates all the way back to the days of the Byzantine Empire, and later found use in coats-of-arms all over Europe. The double-headed form is found as early as the 11th century AD, which predates the earliest written mentions of Freemasonry by 100-200 years, and predates the modern Scottish Rite by about 800 years.
Both of those pictures would seem to involve the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite is an optional side path that some Masons choose to take, but it is not "required" nor do 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Masons "outrank" 3rd Degree Master Masons. You will never be more of a mason than you are when you take the 3rd Degree, no matter how many additional masonic bodies you join. There is a second, EQUALLY COMMON, appendant body called the York Rite, which conveys 10 additional degrees (depending on what state you're in) up to the chivalric degrees, such as Knight Templar (13th degree York Rite = 32nd degree Scottish Rite). As someone who happened to join the York Rite instead of the Scottish Rite, it's a shame that they get all the lunatic conspiracy theories just because they had Albert Pike and we didn't! (His Gnostic-style writings on Freemasonry are probably half the reason Freemasons are feared and reviled as much as we are or falsely considered a religion. His book "Morals & Dogma" is the foundation of the modern Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry-- and yes, there is a Northern Jurisdiction, and yes, it is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the Southern Jurisdiction.)
People outside the fraternity (and that's all it is-- a fraternity) seem to think we're some kind of united front, but that's laughable. Most of these guys can't even agree on what kind of sandwiches to have after the meeting, much less could they agree to take over the world!
If you insist, you can draw Masonic conclusions from the Great Seal, but you can draw bullshit numerological conclusions from ANYTHING. What do you think is more likely? That there are thirteen stars because there are 13 degrees in York Rite Masonry, or because there were 13 original colonies? Did early colonists manipulate the number of colonies just so there'd be 13 of them? I'm sure conspiracy theorists would say yes.
This document you link to is the exact same bullshit I debunked in my last post. If you're going to say there are 32/33 (the 33rd degree is honorary) degrees in the Scottish Rite, then you'd have to say there are 13 degrees in the York Rite, NOT 9. The first three degrees of Masonry are what are called the "Blue Lodge" degrees. You are never more of a mason than you are after taking the third degree. There is no "higher rank," however there are appendant bodies for people who don't mind spending the money, or want to meet more people, or just like being in fraternal orders.
The York Rite issues degrees 4-13, EXCEPT in states where The Blue Lodge issues the "Royal Arch Degree" as the 4th Degree. This does not happen in all states, or even in most states. This is called AF&AM Masonry, and it takes its cue from the United Grand Lodge of England. Depending on whether your state is F&AM or AF&AM the York Rite issues either 9 or 10 additional degrees with one of those degrees being optional (but still counted whether or not you've had it). There is also an honorary degree called the Knight York Cross of Honor that is similar to the Scottish Rite 33rd Degree. The Scottish Rite issues degrees 4-32 with the 33rd degree as an honorary degree.
Therefore, to say the Scottish Rite has 32 degrees, you have to count the 3 Blue Lodge degrees, meaning the Scottish Rite only has 29 degrees, plus one honorary degree. Depending on how you count the feathers on the fucking bird, you can get 32 or 34, or maybe 33, but I don't see any way to get 29.
If you're going to say the Scottish Rite has 32 degrees (or 33) to make Part A of the bullshit theory work, then you would ALSO have to count the Blue Lodge degrees when talking about the York Rite. This pretty much fucks the whole theory about how the 9 tail feathers have anything at all to do with York Rite Masonry. In case I'm not being clear enough: to make any of these theories work you have to VASTLY oversimplify Freemasonry, and then you have to manipulate the numbers. This is hardly the kind of shit I'd do if I were designing a Great Seal and wanted to put Masonic symbolism into it. I'd just slap a big square & compass in there somewhere. (By the way, there are numerous pages debunking your statement about Masonic symbolism in Washington DC's street plan. The designer-- Pierre Charles L'Enfant-- was not a Mason. You seem good at dredging up crap on the internet, so I'll let you find your own refutation. It's been done enough times by now that it shouldn't be hard to find one. For bonus points, find a theory that says the design could just as easily be the Qabbalistic Tree of Life.)
And hey, P.S., at the time of the creation of the Great Seal, Scottish Rite masonry only had 25 degrees. Oops. But maybe the people on the design committee who weren't even Masons did it as part of a global conspiracy, and the degrees were added later to make the numbers work. The system of having degrees numbered 4-32 didn't come about until 1855 under Albert Pike, who was a really weird guy, and probably did more harm to Masonry since anyone before or since.
There are a lot of idiotic Freemasons. You don't have to take a history test to be master of a lodge, you just have to be elected by the other members. According to the document you linked, the guy who wrote it is a Past Master. I have no reason to doubt that, and I'm also telling you it doesn't bother me. I think he's a moron, and I believe that he's uninformed about the history of his own fraternity. Putting shit like that out on the internet when he is clearly nowhere even close to being an authority on Masonic history is a disgrace.
I mean this as inoffensively as I can possibly say it: you are so very badly out of your depth when you try to discuss Freemasonry. Are you aware that there is not even a unified Grand Body for the United States? There is no higher authority over American masons than the Grand Lodge of each individual state. There is no "Unified Grand Lodge of America" like they have over in England. So if we're controlling American government, which state is at the center of the conspiracy? I can tell you just from visiting the annual State Grand Lodge communication that the various Grand Lodges DO NOT always get along.
And the idea that we're a religion is laughable. It's an old slander, and it was just as false even when it was a new slander. I don't even consider it worthy of response.
I wish the Rosicrucians were still around. They were the favorite whipping boys of conspiracy-theorists for a while, but alas... The Scottish Rite actually rips off some of their ideas for a couple of their degrees. Apparently Albert Pike used to sit around with a copy of Fama Fraternitatis and masturbate while gently weeping or something.
If you want to heap shit on Freemasons, talk about the European lodges where there is no ban on political maneuvering. Look at Italian lodges like Propaganda Duo, and crazy politicians like Silvio Burlesconi. Those guys are a disgrace as well. I have no doubt that there are people out there right now who are using the Masonic fraternity to do bad things. I don't doubt that there will be a lot more of them as long as the fraternity exists. But they do not speak for the fraternity. They do not own the fraternity. They are not indicative of all masons.
Please leave us out of all the bullshit, nutso End Times theories. Yes, we talk about King Solomon's Temple. It's a metaphor. Get over it. All we want to do is walk in some parades, give out college scholarships, and hawk the occasional hot dog for a fundraiser. A common thread in discussions at our meetings is that the fraternity is in decline, and that if we're not careful it will die out completely. A healthy conspiracy should have no problem recruiting new members, right?
You've said your bit about Masonry, and I've said mine. I trust anyone with half a brain to judge the truth for themselves, but if anyone has questions just PM me. I would rather you actually get your information from an honest-to-god Mason than some stupid internet webpage saying that we get together in secret to have circle jerks and sing hymns to Satan or something.
An eye inside a triangle with rays of light has long been a symbol of Divine Providence and the all-seeing eye of god. The symbol traces back to the monotheistic worship of Aten in the reign of Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten ~1300 years before the (alleged) birth of Christ. It probably dates back even further as a symbol of Ra. It probably made its way to Christianity (and Freemasonry) in much the same way every other de rigeur religious symbol was appropriated by the Catholic Church. The eye-in-a-triangle-with-rays-of-light is used in Masonry to represent the all-seeing nature of God, and this is the sense in which it's used on the Great Seal. HOWEVER, the "Eye & Pyramid" motif used on the great seal, and much beloved of Illuminati conspiracists is NOT a masonic symbol.
Not really sure what to make of your first picture. The double-headed eagle is used as a symbol by the Scottish Rite, but it is also a common heraldic symbol that dates all the way back to the days of the Byzantine Empire, and later found use in coats-of-arms all over Europe. The double-headed form is found as early as the 11th century AD, which predates the earliest written mentions of Freemasonry by 100-200 years, and predates the modern Scottish Rite by about 800 years.
Both of those pictures would seem to involve the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite is an optional side path that some Masons choose to take, but it is not "required" nor do 32nd Degree Scottish Rite Masons "outrank" 3rd Degree Master Masons. You will never be more of a mason than you are when you take the 3rd Degree, no matter how many additional masonic bodies you join. There is a second, EQUALLY COMMON, appendant body called the York Rite, which conveys 10 additional degrees (depending on what state you're in) up to the chivalric degrees, such as Knight Templar (13th degree York Rite = 32nd degree Scottish Rite). As someone who happened to join the York Rite instead of the Scottish Rite, it's a shame that they get all the lunatic conspiracy theories just because they had Albert Pike and we didn't! (His Gnostic-style writings on Freemasonry are probably half the reason Freemasons are feared and reviled as much as we are or falsely considered a religion. His book "Morals & Dogma" is the foundation of the modern Southern Jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry-- and yes, there is a Northern Jurisdiction, and yes, it is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than the Southern Jurisdiction.)
People outside the fraternity (and that's all it is-- a fraternity) seem to think we're some kind of united front, but that's laughable. Most of these guys can't even agree on what kind of sandwiches to have after the meeting, much less could they agree to take over the world!
If you insist, you can draw Masonic conclusions from the Great Seal, but you can draw bullshit numerological conclusions from ANYTHING. What do you think is more likely? That there are thirteen stars because there are 13 degrees in York Rite Masonry, or because there were 13 original colonies? Did early colonists manipulate the number of colonies just so there'd be 13 of them? I'm sure conspiracy theorists would say yes.
This document you link to is the exact same bullshit I debunked in my last post. If you're going to say there are 32/33 (the 33rd degree is honorary) degrees in the Scottish Rite, then you'd have to say there are 13 degrees in the York Rite, NOT 9. The first three degrees of Masonry are what are called the "Blue Lodge" degrees. You are never more of a mason than you are after taking the third degree. There is no "higher rank," however there are appendant bodies for people who don't mind spending the money, or want to meet more people, or just like being in fraternal orders.
The York Rite issues degrees 4-13, EXCEPT in states where The Blue Lodge issues the "Royal Arch Degree" as the 4th Degree. This does not happen in all states, or even in most states. This is called AF&AM Masonry, and it takes its cue from the United Grand Lodge of England. Depending on whether your state is F&AM or AF&AM the York Rite issues either 9 or 10 additional degrees with one of those degrees being optional (but still counted whether or not you've had it). There is also an honorary degree called the Knight York Cross of Honor that is similar to the Scottish Rite 33rd Degree. The Scottish Rite issues degrees 4-32 with the 33rd degree as an honorary degree.
Therefore, to say the Scottish Rite has 32 degrees, you have to count the 3 Blue Lodge degrees, meaning the Scottish Rite only has 29 degrees, plus one honorary degree. Depending on how you count the feathers on the fucking bird, you can get 32 or 34, or maybe 33, but I don't see any way to get 29.
If you're going to say the Scottish Rite has 32 degrees (or 33) to make Part A of the bullshit theory work, then you would ALSO have to count the Blue Lodge degrees when talking about the York Rite. This pretty much fucks the whole theory about how the 9 tail feathers have anything at all to do with York Rite Masonry. In case I'm not being clear enough: to make any of these theories work you have to VASTLY oversimplify Freemasonry, and then you have to manipulate the numbers. This is hardly the kind of shit I'd do if I were designing a Great Seal and wanted to put Masonic symbolism into it. I'd just slap a big square & compass in there somewhere. (By the way, there are numerous pages debunking your statement about Masonic symbolism in Washington DC's street plan. The designer-- Pierre Charles L'Enfant-- was not a Mason. You seem good at dredging up crap on the internet, so I'll let you find your own refutation. It's been done enough times by now that it shouldn't be hard to find one. For bonus points, find a theory that says the design could just as easily be the Qabbalistic Tree of Life.)
And hey, P.S., at the time of the creation of the Great Seal, Scottish Rite masonry only had 25 degrees. Oops. But maybe the people on the design committee who weren't even Masons did it as part of a global conspiracy, and the degrees were added later to make the numbers work. The system of having degrees numbered 4-32 didn't come about until 1855 under Albert Pike, who was a really weird guy, and probably did more harm to Masonry since anyone before or since.
There are a lot of idiotic Freemasons. You don't have to take a history test to be master of a lodge, you just have to be elected by the other members. According to the document you linked, the guy who wrote it is a Past Master. I have no reason to doubt that, and I'm also telling you it doesn't bother me. I think he's a moron, and I believe that he's uninformed about the history of his own fraternity. Putting shit like that out on the internet when he is clearly nowhere even close to being an authority on Masonic history is a disgrace.
I mean this as inoffensively as I can possibly say it: you are so very badly out of your depth when you try to discuss Freemasonry. Are you aware that there is not even a unified Grand Body for the United States? There is no higher authority over American masons than the Grand Lodge of each individual state. There is no "Unified Grand Lodge of America" like they have over in England. So if we're controlling American government, which state is at the center of the conspiracy? I can tell you just from visiting the annual State Grand Lodge communication that the various Grand Lodges DO NOT always get along.
And the idea that we're a religion is laughable. It's an old slander, and it was just as false even when it was a new slander. I don't even consider it worthy of response.
I wish the Rosicrucians were still around. They were the favorite whipping boys of conspiracy-theorists for a while, but alas... The Scottish Rite actually rips off some of their ideas for a couple of their degrees. Apparently Albert Pike used to sit around with a copy of Fama Fraternitatis and masturbate while gently weeping or something.
If you want to heap shit on Freemasons, talk about the European lodges where there is no ban on political maneuvering. Look at Italian lodges like Propaganda Duo, and crazy politicians like Silvio Burlesconi. Those guys are a disgrace as well. I have no doubt that there are people out there right now who are using the Masonic fraternity to do bad things. I don't doubt that there will be a lot more of them as long as the fraternity exists. But they do not speak for the fraternity. They do not own the fraternity. They are not indicative of all masons.
Please leave us out of all the bullshit, nutso End Times theories. Yes, we talk about King Solomon's Temple. It's a metaphor. Get over it. All we want to do is walk in some parades, give out college scholarships, and hawk the occasional hot dog for a fundraiser. A common thread in discussions at our meetings is that the fraternity is in decline, and that if we're not careful it will die out completely. A healthy conspiracy should have no problem recruiting new members, right?
You've said your bit about Masonry, and I've said mine. I trust anyone with half a brain to judge the truth for themselves, but if anyone has questions just PM me. I would rather you actually get your information from an honest-to-god Mason than some stupid internet webpage saying that we get together in secret to have circle jerks and sing hymns to Satan or something.
