B.C. doctors given Health Canada approval to prescribe heroin

That's fantastic.

Slowly, the fascist walls of this war on drugs have begun to crumble.

Harper and his hidden agenda Conservatives know their ulterior motive anti-drug policies have begun to lose their sway. In the face of new or recent, science-driven, factual ideology, adults of all ages who once stubbornly walked and talked the path of the Conservative, have begun to embrace the truth. And I rejoice for being alive to witness the recent events of late which have contributed to slowly but surely undermining this 40+ year-old war on drug users which has caused untold amounts of irreparable damage since its inception, ironically by a crooked president.

I optimistically await the day, when no one has their freedom snatched away because they felt the need to self-medicate or experiment with a psychotropic substance. A day when we shall look upon the so-called "war on drugs" in bemusement and sadness at the hands of capitalist hypocrites who where in a position to stop or avoid this altogether, but rather chose to look the other way because of the 'financial benefits' awaiting them.

Lastly, one day, I hope that those in power who would choose to break their promises during elections, particularly in relation to drug policy reform, are impeached and banned for the rest of their lives from politics in general.

Edit - I seriously need to relocate to Vancouver. I grow tired of Toronto. Partly because the Leafs continue to suck.

 

You do know that Bayer, that small pharmaceutical company, originally sold Heroin in pharmacies all over the world right?

 

I may not know anything about crime rate data but I also did not claim to know anything about crime rate data.
I know it is complex and if you had it I don't know what it would prove.
I'm not going to sit and proclaim what is wrong why it was what you said because I have no idea. That whole paragraph is suspect.

Then you shouldn't even be participating in this discussing and, admittedly, are to ignorant to even judge my response. I recommend contacting your local representative and fellating him.

 

What do you mean by, "legally at a price comparable to other generic"?
Are addiction programs paid for by users and medications subsidized and how much do they cost? Are there generic/affordable vs brand-name medications? Would private investors be able to invest in their own research and provide the means of production?

Heroin is an old drug that is not under patent protection. If it were an allowed prescription medicine and maintenance were an accepted medical use, any generic pharmaceutical company could produce it and sell it at cents per dose. For example, an 8 mg hydromorphone pill bought at a British Columbia pharmacy will cost you between 40 and 46 cents. Even a heavy user would be spending more per day on their cigarette addiction than their opioid one. Subsidy wouldn't be necessary, and the amount of petty theft, drug dealing, and prostitution among opioid addicts would certainly plummet.

 

Pmo is so oblivious to reality it's pathetic..

 

Heroin is an old drug that is not under patent protection. If it were an allowed prescription medicine and maintenance were an accepted medical use, any generic pharmaceutical company could produce it and sell it at cents per dose. For example, an 8 mg hydromorphone pill bought at a British Columbia pharmacy will cost you between 40 and 46 cents.

Medicare would likely pay for heroin just like it is now paying for hydromorphone. Thank you for the feedback.
I agree that it would probably go on without a dime of taxes. The fact it has no patent rights is also a very important fact.
It would have investors, and hopefully heroin will work better than the current stuff.

Even a heavy user would be spending more per day on their cigarette addiction than their opioid one. Subsidy wouldn't be necessary, and the amount of petty theft, drug dealing, and prostitution among opioid addicts would certainly plummet.

Unfortunately, I have to disagree.
Typical users will still spend more on heroin than cigarettes. (40 cents per 8 milligram converts to $50 per gram, hydromorphone costs more than gold).
And these other criminal activities will not simply plummet. For individual users, the change may be like night turning into day. Overall though, even with a 50% improvement in treatment, there are many other factors to consider that would influence criminal behavior, other than the price and legality of heroin.
Saving $100 a week will not change a person's anti-social peer group or personal beliefs.
Medical-grade heroin will sell on the black-market, introducing an opportunity for profit.
The criminal record that a fair number of heroin users have will not help with employment.
Heroin uers are more likely to have issues in other areas of their life that deal with self control, and drug dependency is its own individual factor in criminal activity, whether a drug is cheap or legal.

Pmo is so oblivious to reality it's pathetic..

Opi! Where have you been all my life?

 

I've been here all along, you just never looked in my direction.

 

Typical users will still spend more on heroin than cigarettes. (40 cents per 8 milligram converts to $50 per gram, hydromorphone costs more than gold).
And these other criminal activities will not simply plummet. For individual users, the change may be like night turning into day. Overall though, even with a 50% improvement in treatment, there are many other factors to consider that would influence criminal behavior, other than the price and legality of heroin.
Saving $100 a week will not change a person's anti-social peer group or personal beliefs.
Medical-grade heroin will sell on the black-market, introducing an opportunity for profit.
The criminal record that a fair number of heroin users have will not help with employment.
Heroin uers are more likely to have issues in other areas of their life that deal with self control, and drug dependency is its own individual factor in criminal activity, whether a drug is cheap or legal.

Where did you get the idea that users will be using 1 gram of hydromorphone per day?

Heroin in Canada has a typical price of $250 per gram at a typical purity of 50%. So that's $500 per pure gram, or 50 cents per milligram.

In the Swiss maintenance program, the patients, allowed to reach their preferred maintenance dose, used an average of 500 mg per day. Keep in mind that those admitted to this program were hardcore, long-time users. The average heroin user would be doing much less per day (on average, 50 mg of pure heroin).

Given that hydromorphone is roughly as potent as heroin, the hardcore user would be spending $25 per day, while the average user would be spending $2.50. So it looks like I underestimated the price for the heaviest users, but a typical user will still spend more on cigarettes, given a pack-a-day habit.

So how much money would the user be saving?

Typical user:

$22.50 per day, $157.50 per week, $675 per month, $8100 per year

Hardcore user:

$225 per day, $1575 per week, $6750 per month, $81000 per year

For the typical user, this is huge... enough saved to pay for rent and groceries every month. Or, $8100 less they will need to acquire through theft, prostitution, or drug dealing.

For the hardcore user, it's astronomical. If you think that someone who hustles every day of their life to make that kind of cash is not going to settle down when it's no longer necessary, you have a poor grasp of economics and human behaviour.

 

Wow, now you're arguing about the harm caused by the illegality of the drug! It's a merry go round.

 

Where did you get the idea that users will be using 1 gram of hydromorphone per day?

I thought you were saying that heroin would cost as much as hydromorphone. I was guessing a typical heroin regiment is 1 gram every 6 days. What would you guess?

Heroin in Canada has a typical price of $250 per gram at a typical purity of 50%. So that's $500 per pure gram, or 50 cents per milligram.

Good point! Purity is important.

Given that hydromorphone is roughly as potent as heroin, the hardcore user would be spending $25 per day, while the average user would be spending $2.50. So it looks like I underestimated the price for the heaviest users, but a typical user will still spend more on cigarettes, given a pack-a-day habit.

So let's be conservative and say they would spend the same on heroin as on cigarettes. Eh?

If you think that someone who hustles every day of their life to make that kind of cash is not going to settle down when it's no longer necessary, you have a poor grasp of economics and human behaviour.

Economics and human behavior are not my forte, but not being exposed to them has little bearing on how well I can grasp them. If you have information, share it, but I am not learning anything by you telling me how stupid I am.
Some users probably hustle up ten thousand dollars a year by commiting a long string of crimes, fewer if they are a good crook. People I know blew $40,000 on drugs each year because they had $40,000 sitting around, they also worked and had a family, with a home to sell. Others had taken drugs just so they could work multiple jobs, finish school, and were succesful little buggers, for a time. Obviously we come from different worlds but we are talking about hundreds of thousands of people, not the few we know of.

For the typical user, this is huge... enough saved to pay for rent and groceries every month. Or, $8100 less they will need to acquire through theft, prostitution, or drug dealing.

+

"The addicts who were given the diacetylmorphine were more successful than the ones who took methadone. One year into this study 88% of the diacetylmorphine group remained in treatment compared to the methadone group where only 54% continued. The illegal behavior was curbed by 67% in the diacetylmorphine group with 48% curbed in the methadone group. This covered all crimes including the use of illicit drugs."

We are talking about quite a boon with 63% less addicts and a 40% reduction in crime.
Why isn't this stuff legal!?
Now, let me throw some sand in that beautifully running machine and see how well it really works.
With my knowledge in sociology and psychology, I know it is not easy to predict human behavior based on prior experience, and this study covers a single year. What happens when treatment ends?
With what you have told me about heroin addiction, I know if a person that makes money by commiting crimes needs less money to buy heroin that they will commit less crime. That is why this would be considered a crime of economics.
That is a major cause of criminal behavior. So with a reduction in heroin cost we can predict a reduction in economic based crime.
Another crime of economics is that while the current cost for a script of hydromorphone is $50/g the street price for hydromorphone is $1250/g. Creating an economic advantage to crime and introducing it to career criminals undergoing heroin treatment. This allows us to predict an increase in economic based crime.
What I also said is that you have many other factors that influence crime, besides those that are affected by a change to the economic or legal issues of the drug.
I gave several concrete examples.
These limit the amount of reduction available, even if we maximized the results. Even if we do see a reduction in crime it is also expected to happen gradually and could even increase due to other factors that have nothing to do with economic or legal concerns. Such as rising unemployment.
Saying each individual would still retain criminal activity is different than talking about about how much money each person would steal or how many crimes each person would commit. If you are a hooker 73% less of the time, you are still a hooker.

I've been here all along, you just never looked in my direction.

Creepy!

Wow, now you're arguing about the harm caused by the illegality of the drug! It's a merry go round.

Darn tootin'!

 

You are a cunt. You have edited the last 2 posts that I replied to, after I replied to them. You are the worst kind of troll imaginable. One who isn't really trolling.

 

In hindsight, except for your 2 or 3 word responses and maybe some other exceptions which I couldn't be bothered with looking into further, you have edited every single reply in this thread. I will make sure that I fucking quote you next time you fucking dog.

 

You are a cunt. You have edited the last 2 posts that I replied to, after I replied to them. You are the worst kind of troll imaginable. One who isn't really trolling.

I guess I do not understand the rules then buddy. I have been asked to do exactly that on other pages of this forum and now I am condemned for doing it. I fix a lot of grammatical errors btw and try and make it easier to read by removing fluff.

 

I guess I do not understand the rules then buddy. I have been asked to do exactly that on other pages of this forum and now I am condemned for doing it. I fix a lot of grammatical errors btw and try and make it easier to read by removing fluff.

Pmoseman - Just wanted to say that - come to think of it - in a way you kind of remind me of this ex-BLer by the name ShiningStar25 (I can't remember exactly if the number at the end was 25, but I digress).

If you get a chance, be sure to read some of his posts (the ones that weren't removed by admin) as they are quite amusing.

Cordially,

Random Heroin Junkie

 

Why not put another tool in the veritable batman's belt of opiate treatments. Just because bupe works for me doesn't mean it works for the guy selling his subutex to get heroin.

Pmoseman...reading your posts makes me cringe a little inside. Its exactly what is wrong with our drug laws and prescribing practices. A person that has no idea the depths of depravity an opiate addiction/dependence can bring you putting their two cents in. We have dea agents and politicians making policy instead of doctors, addicts, and addiction specialists. Stop those horrible junkies from receiving help because prison is where they belong. It is good enough for them to detox in the most uncomfortable of circumstances. I pray that you never experience the heavy end of that hammer bearing down on you and your loved ones.

 

Why not put another tool in the veritable batman's belt of opiate treatments[?]

Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary was out gardening you know, when she found a bean stalk and decided it would rock to refine it and smoke the dope. With a hooka and a tuffet, along came Miss Muffet, and taught her to produce heroin. She was getting inspired when the Sherriff conspired to take all their opium. Without knowing what it was and just because, away he gave it to Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum, but when Tweedle Dee died the Sherriff got fired, by King Author, from Nottingham; so they decided, from that day, provided, that is was illegal to have.
Batman had issues, that took more than tissues, he called on the Coyote, "Wile E. start a clandestine operation, an opium plantation, and set it up in the cemetry." Knowing it was not legal, addicting and possibly causing him harm, Batman stopped smoking and sold it for something to the Count of Dracula. Dracula's son produced heroin and sold it to Robin with glee. When Batman found out he felt such louse that he paid for his recovery.
In a lab on Sesame, Beaker worked out a recipe to detoxify Pinky and the Brain. He soon uncovered which drug delivered the best recovery rate. Weighing the situation, Robin sold his medication; to the Joker who was kicking it too. "But that's what HE SAID!", poor Robin plead as he was dragged away, "Boo hoo." He soon was sprawled out, detoxing in Hell, with Speedy Gonzalez as his only help. Robin was soon out of prison, with a new speed addiction, in his weird green shorts and tights. Beaker found him and was reeling him in when along came Rainbow Bright. She rode up on her horse and with the power of the Force, chopped off his head in one swipe. She lit a cigarette and explained to the tykes, "Yo kids, e'thing's a'ight. Drink yo' coffee. Drink yo' gin. Beaker's been evil since way back when."

 

Wow thats crazy. Would have never thought that would happen

 

ROFLMAO, look at pmoseman's first(?) avatar. Priceless.

 

Fair enough, but we're living in a free society; if the state fails to provide a substitute to these people, they will use far more risky drugs at a much higher cost to society. Giving substitute drugs to addicts is a pragmatic policy; it saves the government a HUGE amount of money (I'm talking about law enforcement here).

Addicts will get the drugs they need one way or the other; there isn't a free society on the planet that can prevent people from using drugs on a mass scale.

You got that right,dopeme. Human beings have been getting high on one substance or another since the wheel was invented and Alley Oop discovered fire. Always have- Always will. And how's the war on drugs going in your neighborhood. It was lost along time ago in mine. One thing is for sure; you and I will be long gone before the good stuff is legalized.

 

Many people either don't know this, or they forgot:

After Nixon declared war on drugs, he expected that - at the latest - by the end of the decade, America would be of all street drugs.

I kinda wish he and Harry Asslicker were still alive today to witness the fruits of their crooked labor.

 

didn't this get vetoed?