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Ayahuasca, in the bush

Thanks.

I'll save the rue for another ayahuasca trip, perhaps combining it with mimosa hostilis, which grows in abundance here. It's been in a zip bag for about a year now, but I think the seeds should keep quite a while.

I'm pretty set on doing ayahuasca, but I'll keep in mind that most of you are indicating it might be more than I can handle, and I will do my best not to overshoot. A shamanic ceremony would be the best environment for this, and perhaps one day I'll do that. Meanwhile I'll approach our own unsupervised endeavour with caution.
 
Flickering said:
So one of the traditional recipies is B Caapi, psychotria viridis and syrian rue - why do people use all three if it's only necessary to use two?.
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Because of the idea that the "spirit is in the vine" rather than being in the DMT. A lot of the indian people think the vine is the important bit which is probably just down to tradition - someone decided it was the vine years ago and the mistake has been handed down through the generations.

To most westerners, DMT is going to be more enjoyable than the harmaline you get in caapi.

Will the experience last for around eight hours if I don't take the rue, or will it filter away after two or three?

Oral DMT doesn't last 8 hours - two or three is closer. The peak will last something like an hour. Taking a higher MAOI dose doesn't make the trip last any longer but you need sufficient MAO inhibition or you won't feel anything.

On a side note: these MAOIs all alone can produce strong psychedelic effects in sufficient doses.

I wouldn't call them psychedelic. They're psychoactive but I wouldn't compare harmaline to psilocybin or LSD.
 
Ismene said:
Oral DMT doesn't last 8 hours - two or three is closer. The peak will last something like an hour. Taking a higher MAOI dose doesn't make the trip last any longer but you need sufficient MAO inhibition or you won't feel anything.
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Well my experience certainly lasted six hours the very least.. And I was incapacitated in every sense of the word during the peak, which felt like an eternity. It's quite hard to move if you are unaware of your own body or even what a body is, never mind having your sensory perceptions consisting of seeing nothing but one color fading to another (eyes open or closed was irrelevant as to my experience I didn't even have eyes anymore, I was in the void, hearing only one single note looped over and over again. Absolute, complete dissociation and total sensory overload, you don't dance with that). I've done high doses of ketamine before using various RoAs but never experienced anything similiar, if I'm not knocked unconscious I can still probably crawl or atleast move some part of my body by a miniscule amount. Obviously this was too much of ayahuasca, the brewing of the tea was so successful it became unsuccessful, but that was NOT my intention, it was an accidental overdose.

It was an internal nightmare, but if I had someone (such as a trip sitter or a shaman) to guide me during the come up, instead of panicking and having the worst fear of my life, maybe I could have had an experience that didn't leave me mentally traumatized for years on.
 
Flickering said:
Thanks.

I'll save the rue for another ayahuasca trip, perhaps combining it with mimosa hostilis, which grows in abundance here. It's been in a zip bag for about a year now, but I think the seeds should keep quite a while.

I'm pretty set on doing ayahuasca, but I'll keep in mind that most of you are indicating it might be more than I can handle, and I will do my best not to overshoot. A shamanic ceremony would be the best environment for this, and perhaps one day I'll do that. Meanwhile I'll approach our own unsupervised endeavour with caution.
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I wasn't aware that mimosa grew here in Australia. It's illegal to grow or import, so I'm wondering where it could be growing in abundance?

Also, I have been totally incapacitated by Ayahuasca - but I think that this was more due to the trance state and what was unfolding in front of my eyes rather than physical sedation (although in combination with meditation there is always a heaviness to the experience for me). I can also walk around if need be (to spew or shit or whatever), so it definitely depends on one's subjective reaction to the experience.

You'll be right Flikering. I've found all of my experiences with oral DMT to be magical, and while I've never had a "bad" experience, I've had some extremely challenging ones. Overall, I find oral DMT to have a benevolent spirit, but it's a spirit that will still kick your arse at times. One thing I should also mention is that even during the most challenging experiences I've had, by the end of the journey, I have always felt amazingly light, switched on and attuned to the world around me.

The experience for me always has a narrative, and I sometimes return to narratives from past experiences and continue them. It really is something special.

YMMV, of course.
 
FnX said:
Well my experience certainly lasted six hours the very least..
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You were at the peak of an oral DMT trip for 6 hours? Or do you mean that was the time you could feel that you'd taken a drug?

during the peak, which felt like an eternity

The peak of an oral DMT trip never lasts long enough for me - always been very friendly, loving and the greatest physical high of any drug including MDMA. Moving any part of your body leaves you groaning with pleasure.
 
Ismene said:
You were at the peak of an oral DMT trip for 6 hours? Or do you mean that was the time you could feel that you'd taken a drug?
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It's really hard to say how long the actual peak lasted with a trip like that, all I could tell was when the effects started to come up, when I lost the ability to keep track of time and when I was able to think/speak/see properly again to understand what time is and communicate. The intensity of the trip really was such that something like 20 minutes from on-set to come up, I was already overwhelmed by the effects and started panicking because I my reality was getting ripped away from me so violently. There's simply no way of telling how long the peak, during which I believe I was lying blind/deaf in a pool of vomit, being tormented by an internal hell lasted. Atleast that's where I woke up, I had been sitting on a chair from which I fell down. Then, when I was finally able to utter a word out of my mouth, still having quite an experience visually and mentally despite coming down, I asked my friend how long time has passed since we started tripping, he answered six hours.

By eternity I mean time literally stopped for me, I was stuck in horrible loops during most of the trip, but the peak itself was like being inside hell with no means to keep track of time, the concept of time had simply disappeared from my reality at that point. There was nothing but my consciousness and I was all alone in the void, I didn't black out or anything, though I wish I had. I was so, so alone my head filled with dark thoughts. From that point on, I've hated existence and wished I could just stop existing, but I believe that even death won't save me from the hellish reality I saw during this trip. I still want to die, I just think it won't solve anything as I can't escape the nature of existence by simply destroying my body. It wasn't a friendly and loving experience at all... I need psychotherapy but I've convinced myself no therapist can help me. Somewhere inside I feel like I have to go back to that place again I went during my ayahuasca trip, to face my fears and close the circle, but I'm so fucking afraid I'd almost rather just kill myself than drink that tea again.

This is why I try to warn people not to mess with ayahuasca or take it lightly, out of compassion, I don't want anyone else to damage their mind the way I did six years ago or so, the stuff STILL haunts and cripples me. I'm quite certain that lighter doses will not cause something what I experienced, but the thing is, a friend of mine took the very same tea with me and didn't have nearly as profound experience as I did. Perhaps he purged too early, lucky bastard... If I remember correctly, I didn't purge at all when it was supposed to happen, but I was vomiting during the come up when the mental effects were so intense. Even with an empty stomach my body was forcing itself to constantly vomit out of panic until it finally gave up and I curled into a ball.
 
I guess I'll have to see how long it lasts for myself, I daresay it varies between users. My experiences with other substances have tended to be on the longer side.

Mimosa hostilis - sorry my mistake, I meant acacia confusia or acacia maidenii.

FnX - that's brutal. Have you considered ibogaine? Following the damage of one super entheogen with another might sound like a bad idea, but ibogaine is reputedly a lot less horrifying and more deliberately healing. It could be a way to face this great void the ayahuasca overdose has opened in your life, and resolve it.
 
FnX - have you had problems with depression before you had the ayahuasca? Are you ok with other psychedelics? Or don't psychedelics agree with you in general?
 
Ismene said:
FnX - have you had problems with depression before you had the ayahuasca? Are you ok with other psychedelics? Or don't psychedelics agree with you in general?
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Yeah, I had quite of a depressive period in my life prior to that experience, on the day and few days before it my mood was fine though. Later on I've been diagnosed bipolar type II, but personally I don't trust the competence of many psychiatrists I've met. I'm quite fine with psychedelics in general, I've taken normal and occasionally rather large doses of mushrooms, mescaline, salvia, acid, and some phenethylamines like 2C-E and so on during these past six years after my experience with ayahuasca with no problems. Naturally some trips are more difficult than others, but I've never ever experienced anything like the day I did with ayahuasca. These experiences can't be even compared imo. 3 weeks ago I ate around 4 grams of cubes and it was a nice, profound experience that ended up with me solving some underlying issues. Healing, in other words, though I did have some anxiety during the come-up because last time I did psychedelics was around one year ago. That one trauma with my first and coincidentally strongest psychedelic experience remains unsolved though, no matter what.
 
Just had one more quick question. We're brewing right now, but we didn't have quite as much material as expected - we have 55g of Caapi, and around 80g of viridis. Sounds like it's a bit weak on the MAOI side. Most of you have advised against syrian rue - what if we only took a gram, or a gram and a half at most? I think that would just help potentiate it a bit, without the rue interfering too much with the trip. Would anyone advise against that?

Anyone who can reply to this in the next three hours is a super awesome person. :) We're hoping to finish the brew in 3 hours, otherwise we've missed our train and will have to wait until tomorrow.
 
That could perhaps work. Best option is simmering the whole seeds 2-3 times and collecting the water (should be dark yellow to red, depending on carboline content and amount of water used) as this makes straining/filtering a lot easier with acceptable yield.

Don't know how strong your Caapi is (in terms of MAOI content) nor for how many many persons your brew is planned (2?). IIRC, one needs about 30-50 g of Caapi OR about 3 grams of P. Harmala seeds for one person. I advise checking my numbers yourself and then estimate from there.

Best of luck in your endeavours and be safe :)
 
Thanks sn23.

We have 55g of Caapi and 80g of viridis between two people. I figure we can just chew the rue about an hour before drinking the ayahuasca brew. The brew has taken a lot longer to cook than expected, so we're doing it tomorrow instead... hoping it goes well... I think we have a low to medium-intensity elixer here, but there's only one way to find out.
 
FnX said:
It's really hard to say how long the actual peak lasted with a trip like that, all I could tell was when the effects started to come up, when I lost the ability to keep track of time and when I was able to think/speak/see properly again to understand what time is and communicate. The intensity of the trip really was such that something like 20 minutes from on-set to come up, I was already overwhelmed by the effects and started panicking because I my reality was getting ripped away from me so violently. There's simply no way of telling how long the peak, during which I believe I was lying blind/deaf in a pool of vomit, being tormented by an internal hell lasted. Atleast that's where I woke up, I had been sitting on a chair from which I fell down. Then, when I was finally able to utter a word out of my mouth, still having quite an experience visually and mentally despite coming down, I asked my friend how long time has passed since we started tripping, he answered six hours.

By eternity I mean time literally stopped for me, I was stuck in horrible loops during most of the trip, but the peak itself was like being inside hell with no means to keep track of time, the concept of time had simply disappeared from my reality at that point. There was nothing but my consciousness and I was all alone in the void, I didn't black out or anything, though I wish I had. I was so, so alone my head filled with dark thoughts. From that point on, I've hated existence and wished I could just stop existing, but I believe that even death won't save me from the hellish reality I saw during this trip. I still want to die, I just think it won't solve anything as I can't escape the nature of existence by simply destroying my body. It wasn't a friendly and loving experience at all... I need psychotherapy but I've convinced myself no therapist can help me. Somewhere inside I feel like I have to go back to that place again I went during my ayahuasca trip, to face my fears and close the circle, but I'm so fucking afraid I'd almost rather just kill myself than drink that tea again.

This is why I try to warn people not to mess with ayahuasca or take it lightly, out of compassion, I don't want anyone else to damage their mind the way I did six years ago or so, the stuff STILL haunts and cripples me. I'm quite certain that lighter doses will not cause something what I experienced, but the thing is, a friend of mine took the very same tea with me and didn't have nearly as profound experience as I did. Perhaps he purged too early, lucky bastard... If I remember correctly, I didn't purge at all when it was supposed to happen, but I was vomiting during the come up when the mental effects were so intense. Even with an empty stomach my body was forcing itself to constantly vomit out of panic until it finally gave up and I curled into a ball.
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Sounds rough. I'm doing aya for the first time at a retreat in Peru from May 1 thru the 10th. Someone in that thread asked me why I wouldn't rather do it in my home for the first time. Your post is a good reason.
 
10below said:
Sounds rough. I'm doing aya for the first time at a retreat in Peru from May 1 thru the 10th. Someone in that thread asked me why I wouldn't rather do it in my home for the first time. Your post is a good reason.
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I think this is pretty rare tho 10below, it's like finding a person who had a terrible acid trip and then taking his advice on what LSD is like. I've taken tremendous doses of oral DMT and had the most ecstatic times of my life.
 
Thought I'd update...

We brewed 80g viridis and 55g Caapi on a simmer for 16 hours, reducing it down to 350mLs. We stored it in the fridge overnight, then went out camping with it in a bottle. Around 4pm, we took 4g of root ginger each to help settle our stomachs so we could keep it down longer. Around 5, we each took 1g of Syrian rue. Around 6, we started drinking, and we had half a cup each down in ten minutes. At first we thought it didn't taste that bad, but soon enough the reality set in. Not as nasty as cactus, and certainly it doesn't have the same lingering aftertaste as cough syrup, but it was pretty bad. We redosed around 8; I'm not sure if this had any effect at all.

By 7:30, I'd given up that anything would happen and I started eating. I hadn't eaten by this point in 27 hours, fasting to prevent nausea, so I was absolutely starving. But the food only seemed to turn my hunger into pain. Suddenly my entire body tingled with electricity and my vision turned pixellated and digital. Mild dissociation and euphoria budged their way into my mind. My teeth felt like enormous fragile blocks, and my face felt like it was melting, and there was a feeling of cold liquid behind my eyes. I ignored this body load and closed my eyes, and began to get faint visualisations of twisting digital snakes and vines.

Two hours later, after failing to get any stronger than that, it was over. :( My friend was very disappointed, and I was a little too, but I've gotten over it quickly. Overall it was about the equivalent strength of 1.5g of mushrooms. Ismene, like you said, it was similar to mushrooms and had a very friendly sense to it. I'm no longer afraid to take a full dose, though when that will be, I don't know. I also have no idea about what went wrong with the brew, though if I were to guess, I'd say it was the Caapi. I had a branch, but it was from the end of the tree, not the vine. Perhaps we only had the MAO inhibiting effect of 1g of syrian rue, plus 40g each of viridis. A shame.

At no point did either of us experience more than the subtlest nausea.

Next: ibogaine, and I'm taking 30g of powdered rootbark, so I'll be damned if THAT isn't a strong experience.
 
Eating a little something does usually helps DMT to kick in.

I was expecting that it might not go perfectly the first time - especially drinking the MAOI and DMT at the same time - it's going to take a while for the MAOI to kick in and meanwhile your body is destroying all the DMT.

Perhaps an extraction of the DMT so you know how much you're getting next time flickering, and perhaps take the MAOI 45 mins before the DMT so your body doesn't get chance to deactivate the DMT before the MAOI starts working.

Ibogaine? Sounds a little drastic!
 
Well considering my track record with cooking things, I don't want to think about what would happen if I tried to extract DMT... But I'll take the caapi beforehand in a separate cup next time, for sure.

Drastic times call for...
 
No cooking involved - just dump the bark in a stainless steel pot with drain cleaner and bartolines low odour white spirit, stir, suck up the naptha layer, put it in the freezer and hey presto, DMT.
 
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