Avoiding Ignorance

[Xtc <3]

My apologies if this is in the wrong section... here goes.

Basically ignorance pisses me off, and so in my attempt to better myself as a human being I try to free myself from it as much as possible.

Now I realise that I will always be ignorant and eradicating it completely is rather futile, however I aim to be as unignorant as I can.

This leads me to the logic that I should doubt everything, as if I were to believe it straight away that would be ignorant.

This then poses the question, how do I know what to believe?
I usually read various articles from various sources regarding whatever the matter is and then decide myself which is most fitting.

This is leading to a flaw in my personality, when in social situations I question everything that people say or do and believe none of it. Always thinking about it and trying to justifying it logically.

My friends would probably see me as cold hearted because I dont trust in the things they say and do, but to me this just seems logical.

However I believe that knowledge cannot be attained apart from the knowledge that we cannot gain knowledge.

This leads me to think why bother communicating at all if everything is potentially bullshit?

Socially this has a huge impact on me as I sort of stay inside my head questioning everything instead of just going along with it like everyone else seems to. GRrrrrrr i cant stop it!

Anyone else have similar thoughts or any strange obssesive functions?
Please discuss :D

 

[xexon]

Nobody can know all that is.

The human mind is incapable of it. That's why you must learn to identify with your higher self.

It is beyond mind, and has omniscience.

Just as we celebrate our accumulation of knowlwdge, we must also celebrate what ignorance does for us in a positive way.

Like opening a present or watching a new movie. You don't know what to expect, and it gives you a little charge because of it.


Balance. You must find it to be happy.


x

 

[Xtc <3]

Not knowing the plot of a movie or the contents of a present is a little different to truly believing that LSD makes your brain bleed and you die if you take more than 3 hits?

I dont want to be seen as some ignorant idiot that actually believes rediculous stuff like that.

I dont truly accept any of my beliefs as all of them can be questioned in one way or another, this I feel leaves me as a sort of empty shell of a person with no opinions on anything.

Even if I did have an opinion I would not choose to believe it as I know it cannot be proven true.

I just choose to go along with the most convincing option, for example I would select scientific evidence and studies on LSD over some dumb ass claiming it makes your brain bleed.

So i obviously rate certain things higher than the others and pick the one which seems most logical. Although none of them i actually believe... I have no beliefs!, to most people this would seem to be something of concern but to me it seems completely logical.

 

[Xevy]

This leads me to the logic that I should doubt everything, as if I were to believe it straight away that would be ignorant.

This then poses the question, how do I know what to believe?

It seems you find yourself in a radically skeptical mode. In some ways I think skepticism is better than the alternative, although as it sounds like you yourself know it has limits.

I believe if you examine carefully, there are things that you implicitly do NOT doubt. For example, do you explicitly doubt that gravity will hold you down when you are moving about? Do you doubt that you need food and water for your body to survive? Do you doubt that 1+1=2 according to the axioms of our math?

So you, there probably are some things that you do not doubt. Why is it you do not doubt these things? Well perhaps its because they seem so obviously true. So why is it they seem so obviously true? Most likely, at least in my case, it is because they are easily personally verifiable.

Now, in this information age there is no way that 1 human being can personal verify everything. Can you personally verify that we landed on the Moon? No, and this is why you have people who believe we didn't, because its certainly POSSIBLE that we didn't, and since you didn't see it with your own eyes, verify it personally, there is room for doubt.

I do not know your belief system, but you probably accept a good deal of science that you have not personally verified. Why do you believe it? Perhaps because you trust that the scientific method is sound. So now you have extended your 'trust' from personally verifiable phenomena like gravity to knowledge verified by others.

I am reminded at this point of the Buddhist Kaalaama Sutra, part of which says:

"Come, Kaalaamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by oral tradition (anussava); nor upon succession (from teacher to disciple, paramparaa); nor upon rumour (itikiraa); nor upon what is in a scripture (pi.tikasampadaa); nor upon pure reason (takka); nor upon inference (naya); nor upon reasoned consideration (aakaaraparivitakka); nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over (di.t.thinijjhaanakkhanti); nor upon another's seeming expertise (bhavyaruupataa); nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher' (sama.no no garu). Kaalaamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blameable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them."

In the end, its going to be you who decide what you believe, and its going to be based on who you consider to be valid sources of knowledge. I believe its healthy to always keep some degree of skeptism. Yet, perhaps you have moved too far in that direction. Examining the motivations of those providing information may always help, if someone has a strong motivation to mislead you, perhaps you should not accept them as a source of knowledge as readily.

Of course, if you are presented with some information which just 'does not seem right', you have the benefit of this age and can easily use the internet or other resources to 'verify' it yourself -- that is of course assuming that you trust what others who are the ultimate source of those places have found.

 

[Xevy]

I have no beliefs!, to most people this would seem to be something of concern but to me it seems completely logical.

Really? It sounds to me that you have the belief that you have no beliefs.

 

[ThaiDie4]

This is leading to a flaw in my personality, when in social situations I question everything that people say or do and believe none of it. Always thinking about it and trying to justifying it logically.

My friends would probably see me as cold hearted because I dont trust in the things they say and do, but to me this just seems logical.

However I believe that knowledge cannot be attained apart from the knowledge that we cannot gain knowledge.

This leads me to think why bother communicating at all if everything is potentially bullshit?

Socially this has a huge impact on me as I sort of stay inside my head questioning everything instead of just going along with it like everyone else seems to. GRrrrrrr i cant stop it!

I think I get what you are saying. I run into that problem at times too, when you're out with friends and one of them will start talking about something that sounds totally bogus... and you're just sitting there thinking, "how could that be right???"

Usually in those situations, I do one of 3 things.

1) Debate it. If its a light-hearted topic and an appropriate person\setting, then nothing is wrong with a friendly discussion. As long as you don't come off as "all-knowing" or arrogant, hopefully your friend will appriciate the view from the other side.

2) Pretend to agree and change the topic. If you're talking with one of those people who you know will not back down, just say something like "Oh, that's interesting" and change the subject. Do further research at home to see if what he says holds any truth, and form your own opinion based on what you find.

3) Inquire more. I've had friends tell me pretty outlandish things, and it will be on a topic I know nothing about. So if it sounds unbelieveable, I ask them to explain it a bit further. Sometimes they actually know what they are talking about and can back it up with facts- in that case, *I* was the ignorant one. And then, of course, sometimes it's just BS, in which case you continue the conversation with one of the above techniques.

I also understand that feeling of not knowing what to believe I'm a skeptic myself and I feel like sometimes I have a hard time accepting what I'm being told, or not knowing which source to put my faith in (if they are equally crediable). I agree with what someone said above, that although its frustrating, its better than being niave and gulliable. I try to just accept that nothing is 100% for-sure, and that it's OK if my beliefs and opinions change and mold based on my current knowledge and expierences Good luck

 

[Binge Artist]

Avoiding ignorance would mainly involve pouring over a bunch of facts, right? Seems to conflict with the strategy of "doubting everything".

And even if you did learn every "fact" known to man, you'd still be ignorant of most things.

 

[Xtc <3]

Really? It sounds to me that you have the belief that you have no beliefs.

Touché

 

[Xtc <3]

there are things that you implicitly do NOT doubt. For example, do you explicitly doubt that gravity will hold you down when you are moving about? Do you doubt that you need food and water for your body to survive? Do you doubt that 1+1=2 according to the axioms of our math?

I do not doubt them to the point where I would ever have any concern about them, but that does not mean I agree they are 100% true.
Im well aware im a rather extreme skeptic, but surely it makes the most sense to be skeptical, if your not skeptical about things then its not too dissimilar from judging a book by its cover.

Dont get me wrong, its not like every single potential fact in the universe is bugging me, and Im not obsessivly fixating 24/7 about things, I do just overlook most things.

Pretend to agree and change the topic.

This being my usual option, a small part of me dies each time I admit defeat and agree

Appreciate the replies though, thanks

 

[Xevy]

Im well aware im a rather extreme skeptic, but surely it makes the most sense to be skeptical, if your not skeptical about things then its not too dissimilar from judging a book by its cover.

It makes the most sense from what perspective? I do not believe there is some sort of magical objective 'sense' that decides what is right.

From my perspective, skepticism carried to its logical extreme does NOT make the most sense, in fact it makes very little sense. In my opinion you lose a great deal of functionality and basically gain nothing in return.

Of course I am not saying that you should just accept whatever anyone tells you, that would be moving towards the opposite extreme of your skepticism. As with most things, in my opinion, you would be best off finding a balance somewhere in the middle.

Personally, if someone I have a good relationship says something that I believe is blatantly false, I will confront them and ask about that fact/belief and what their sources/reasonings for it are. If its a casual aquataince, in the wrong circumstances, then of course I don't think this type of 'factual confrontation' is best -- probably best to just let it go.

 

[Xtc <3]

Yes I have seriously considered the fact that it would be more logical to not do this in order to function in society and perhaps improve quality of life somewhat, but it's compulsive for me to analyse things the way that I do even in spite of this.

 

[Xevy]

Yes I have seriously considered the fact that it would be more logical to not do this in order to function in society and perhaps improve quality of life somewhat, but it's compulsive for me to analyse things the way that I do even in spite of this.

Compulsions are merely the product of past habituation. I do not think that being analytical is negative in any way. However, you only have so much 'mental energy', or in even more basic terms, there are only so many hours in the day.

If you think its a good use of your time to be skeptical of every piece of information you encounter, regardless of the source -- then by all means, its your life, have fun with that.

However, if you do not think this is the best use of your energy/time, perhaps you could spend some time thinking about what sources and kinds of sources of knowledge you can provisionally accept as true. For example, I provisionally accept it as true that when I press the space bar on my keyboard a space is going to appear. Of course someday I may hit my space bar and a space wont appear, the key may break.

Yet, I do not doubt that its going to work every single time I use it, one can provisionally accept knowledge/facts and always keep an open mind that you may need to revise your acceptance of them later.

In this manner you can 'accept' facts and information at their face value, so-and-so says this X. If you later run into information that makes you doubt X, then by all means revise your acceptance of that. Its really just a matter of how much energy do you want to put into things up front.

If you are interested in philosophy you may find some benefit in looking into epistemology which is the study of knowledge.

 

[Xtc <3]

I provisionally accept it as true that when I press the space bar on my keyboard a space is going to appear. Of course someday I may hit my space bar and a space wont appear, the key may break.

Yet, I do not doubt that its going to work every single time I use it

Like I said I dont doubt everything in the world all the time, I choose to accept whichever becomes the most plausible answer, however I could never say I believe it to be 100% true.

My previous posts give the impression that i compulsively question things 24/7, I dont!

Its just when out socially I either question what someone says instead of believing it immediatly or choose to ignore it.

Im not a skeptist extremist with OCD as my previous posts seem to suggest (sarcastic)

I only aim to reduce the amount of ignorant things I say and do on a daily basis, so i will only doubt something and research it if I were to actually use it myself in conversation or what not.

My apologies for my previous posts being misleading, Im not very effecient when it comes to constructing sentences after a almighty bong rip :D

 

[Xevy]

Like I said I dont doubt everything in the world all the time, I choose to accept whichever becomes the most plausible answer, however I could never say I believe it to be 100% true.

My previous posts give the impression that i compulsively question things 24/7, I dont!

Its just when out socially I either question what someone says instead of believing it immediatly or choose to ignore it.

Im not a skeptist extremist with OCD as my previous posts seem to suggest (sarcastic)

I only aim to reduce the amount of ignorant things I say and do on a daily basis, so i will only doubt something and research it if I were to actually use it myself in conversation or what not.

My apologies for my previous posts being misleading, Im not very effecient when it comes to constructing sentences after a almighty bong rip :D

Forgive me, I was unable to avoid my ignorance regarding the true nature of your skepticism If someone says something that sounds suspect to me, I certainly don't just accept it, often I will remember it and then when I am at home later look it up.

 

[LivingInTheMoment]

Basically ignorance pisses me off, and so in my attempt to better myself as a human being I try to free myself from it as much as possible.

Now I realise that I will always be ignorant and eradicating it completely is rather futile, however I aim to be as unignorant as I can.

This leads me to the logic that I should doubt everything, as if I were to believe it straight away that would be ignorant.

This then poses the question, how do I know what to believe?

I usually read various articles from various sources regarding whatever the matter is and then decide myself which is most fitting.

This is leading to a flaw in my personality, when in social situations I question everything that people say or do and believe none of it. Always thinking about it and trying to justifying it logically.

My friends would probably see me as cold hearted because I dont trust in the things they say and do, but to me this just seems logical.

However I believe that knowledge cannot be attained apart from the knowledge that we cannot gain knowledge.

This leads me to think why bother communicating at all if everything is potentially bullshit?

Socially this has a huge impact on me as I sort of stay inside my head questioning everything instead of just going along with it like everyone else seems to. GRrrrrrr i cant stop it!

Anyone else have similar thoughts or any strange obssesive functions?
Please discuss :D

When you hear something that you are uncertain of its validity, just listen objectively in a neutral position.

Your good sense (if it is active) and your intuition, will pick on it, if something does not associate properly. Your mind should be also asking if it is all in context to the point the person is making. Next, check for incongruencies and ask for clarifications. When points and statements are made, see if there is reasoning to them. Ask for references, of the points made, and where the information came from and when. ...and a lot more! Never interogate, for this comes from a diffrent part of the ego.

When you are sattisfied in all areas, it will be introjected and integrated on its own accord. The ego does not allow things that don't follow an acceptable pattern-that will make it acceptable- to it, for absorbtion, to take it in. The unclnscious is very intelligent/wise
and if you have introjected something that there is incongruency in it, it will feel like a thorn does/like a foreign object in your skin....but in your mind.

If you absorb something whole without having defined its validity first, it will play in your mind and it will be brought up for re-investigation by your ego. It will keep coming back again and again, until you make the right associations or sort out the incongruencies. If you are open to this, upon introspection, it will reveal its incongruencies, because the mind can not integrate any iformation that has incogruencies, it will be bringing it up over and over, and will try to clear these before it accepts it as true.

It will only do integrate it finally, when it does sort its validity and truth to it. The inner self is extremely wise. One could fool the outer part of the ego, but not the inner core/self, because it only connects with ultimate truth and accepts nothing but the truth, even when the outer ego is not even aware of it.

The ego only suspects and is cynical and hence can make you be in disbelief of everything, so that it protects the inner self-but when you let go of that part, and fall in the depths of the self, it always knows what is and what is not, if your awareness is in full focus. Sythesis does not take place right away.

Furthermore, you do not have to accept-as if the wholly grail-what you hear, as a final absorbtion, but leave it there, and seek to find more information.

There is not one single person in existance, who is fully knowledgable, and who does not have ignorance. We may be aware and knowledgable in certain things and not in others. Even what we know, others know from a different perspective, hence we were ignorant from that point of view, and there are always new doors of perception, which only when our mind opens up its doors at some stage, it will perceive, or absorb when it joins all the dots by the associations.

There is such wealth of information within us that the resources are infinate, if we are open and aware. It never ends.

 

[Xtc <3]

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” - Buddha

 

[swilow]

I think stupidity ie. not bothering to 'check yer facts' is annoying; but ignorance- ie. a state where one simply doesn't KNOW something is the only platform from which we can learn. That said, thats just a semantic argument on my part. Ignorance is bliss. Personally, I'd rather not know some things I do- and I would like to know MORE of some things I don't. I think getting pissed off by ignorance is performing the same action; its an emotional response based on an assumption that one knows more then some-one else.

This being my usual option, a small part of me dies each time I admit defeat and agree

The small part is yer ego, and deserves to die

 

[Jabberwocky]

Humans hating ignorance is like fish hating water. I could get really angry about all the ignorance around me were it not for recurrent realizations that I will not overcome even a fraction of a percent of my own ignorance within my lifetime.

Someone said in a business I worked in once "The things I don't know could fill libraries" to which the business owner quickly responded' "They already do"

An acceptance of one's own ignorance is probably the precursor to any real learning. We all know you can not teach anything to the guy who knows it all.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Humans hating ignorance is like fish hating water.

Yeah I was going to say, consider yourself lucky OP, because most people have a much bigger problem with liking ignorance too MUCH, rather than too little! The whole lazy man's notion of 'what I don't know can't hurt me', or 'ignorance is bliss', has been responsible for many more needless bad things finding people, than the opposite attitude.

I'm reminded of author Robert Anton Wilson's very hardcore agnosticism, in which he encouraged people to doubt absolutely everything they take for granted as true, and to always be willing to accept the possibility that things are far from what they seem. There is much wisdom to his words, and I respected Wilson greatly as both an author and as a human being, don't get me wrong. But at the same time, is this actually a realistic way to live? It seems to me that to function in day to day life, one has to have some minimum amount of faith, that most of the things we see truly ARE, at some level, what they seem. This is ultimately unprovable. There are many good philosophical arguments for this all being an illusion, of all entities and phenomena, as we perceive them, being ultimately fake. But from a utilitarian perspective, this is a moot argument, because whether they are fake or not, we have a need to receive most things AS IF -- TRUSTING THAT -- they are real.

This gets complicated when you talk about the ontological reliability of other people's experiences, and their subsequent delineation of true and false, in their communication with you. This is what the philosophy of science is all about -- not something I can converse on intelligently, but many here can.

My advice is, keep a healthy skepticism about you, because often enough things are not what they seem, and you'll be fortunate to pick up on that before you've taken the wrong action. But at the same time don't doubt your ability to have faith when appropriate, to just accept and receive without undue analysis. Your gut, digesting all the collective experiences the universe has served up for you, has gotten you this far. It's helped you pick out real friends from not so great friends, and allowed you to eat breakfast every morning without getting hamstrung by the notion that your food must be poisoned.

Skepticism is a form of control, and in that, it feels inherently good, I can understand that. To doubt something is to make it submit to you, if you're to have anything to do with it. But like all forms of control, a.k.a. tools, its use is limited and local; it certainly has no ability to grant you global control over all aspects of your life, even when used maximally.

 

[hoopyfrood]

One of the beauties of human life (and other life) is that we have the power to assume. Life probably wouldn't exist if beings couldn't believe things. For instance, if you scold your dog every time it pisses on the floor, it's going to assume you're going to punish it after it pisses on the floor again. I think you're taking your idea of rationality too far (far enough that it becomes irrational in itself).

You see, humans, because their wonderful 'assuming powers', have the ability to learn. And if your friend lies to you, then you learn he's a liar. You've officially solidified your perception of his 'potential bullshit'.

You can still be a rational person without being cynical.