Athiests and NA... can it work?

I ceased using drugs ten weeks ago. To get to where I'm at now I only needed to realize where I was and where I was going. I do not believe in a higher power nor am I a spiritual person. To be honest, something like AA/NA would annoy me to death.

I do go to counseling for practical issues, looking at what got me in trouble in the first place, mental evaluation.. all that good stuff. I find it weird people would just depend on something like AA which I feel doesn't tackle the root issues and causes of drug abuse. Thats why you'll probably have to go to meetings your whole life, since you are so powerless.. :|
 
I had a major slip up last week when i stayed drunk for 3 days due to being depressed as fuck but i don't even think about it really. In fact not thinking about it has been alot of my strategey if i even have one for not drinking. I was never one to count the days id been sober.


I agree. I had a slip up last Saturday and got drunk after two weeks of sobriety, but i don't care, i'm still quit and that night/morning only reinforced that for me. Every day that you are sober is a day that you didn't drink, and messing up on a later day doesn't take away the benefit of the previous days.

What I am trying to say is that I can say I stopped for two weeks and then screwed it all up, or i can imagine where i would be if i had drank each of those nights for two weeks, and move on happy from there.

Cheers on the sobriety!
 
With all due respect, I hope your close-minded attitude doesnt interfere with your progress on being sober too buddy! Of coure I say that in a nice Christian way! =]


And Im sure that your friends who are Christian do beleive that, considering the original 12 Steps were all taken out of the bible. Over the years theyve revised the orginization and widdled down the steps and taken God out of them to make it more "People friendly".


Just like everything else this nation was built upon Christiany. Now you cant say God in the plege in school. Kids cant read bibles in schools. Weve kicked God out of everything in this nation, Weve asked God to leave and he has!! Thats why we are in the MESS we are in now!

America was not built on christianity at all. Ever hear of seperation of church and state? The founding fathers of the US unlike the religious wack jobs now didnt believe in shoving religion down everyones throat.

Also yeah the days where the church ruled everything is mostly over thank god except for a few bible belting sheep. I really miss the days when homosexuality was considered a sin, racism was rampant and if you lived with someone and slept with them and you where not married it was considered a big sin. Yeah i miss that about as much as i miss having acne as a teenager 8)
 
I also must add that there's no way they are suggesting "higher power" outside the context of religion, let alone spirituality.

Only the first step is vague enough to suggest it can be done with a spiritual principle. Then it clearly becomes a religious principle when FIVE of the following steps explicitly refer to god, and no more mentions of a higher power.

That doesn't make much sense to me if it's not based on religion and just personal spirituality.
 
I also must add that there's no way they are suggesting "higher power" outside the context of religion, let alone spirituality.

Only the first step is vague enough to suggest it can be done with a spiritual principle. Then it clearly becomes a religious principle when FIVE of the following steps explicitly refer to god, and no more mentions of a higher power.

That doesn't make much sense to me if it's not based on religion and just personal spirituality.

But that doesn't explain the variety of religions of individual members that attend or the many atheists and agnostics that make meetings and work a program of recovery

If you read the chapters in the literature that go deeper into the numbered steps it clearly states that we really don't care what a person's concept of a higher power is as long as its loving and caring

I have no religion and am strictly in it to stay clean and to work on developing good character (aka spiritual principles)

Personally, I don't dig that the word 'God' is used (especially capitalized) and I don't care for this 'God' being categorized as male. A significant number of others feel this way as well, otherwise the below Bulletin would not have been published.

NSFW:
WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #19

Gender-specific language and use
of the word "God" in NA literature


The following is a February 1992 response to a motion committed to the World Service Board of Trustees by the World Service Conference. It reflects the views of the board at the time of writing.

During WSC '91, the following motion was committed to the World Service Board of Trustees for its consideration: That all subsequent literature that is to be revised and be produced to have non-gender-specific language and that all references to God be changed to "Higher Power" or "Power Greater than ourselves."

This motion was addressed at our June 1991, August 1991, and February 1992 meetings, with our discussions focusing on the following main issues.

First, and simplest, is the change to non-gender-specific language. Our perception is that the various committees involved in literature projects are already very sensitive to this issue. Changes of the type suggested by this motion are already being considered in the literature development and review process.

More complicated is the question of changing all references to "God." Our fellowship embraces the devoutly religious as well as the atheist. We experience a profound spiritual awakening as a result of actively applying the Twelve Steps in our lives. Most of us continue to experience change and growth in our spiritual orientation as we continue to live the program. We are faced with the dilemma of meaningfully addressing diverse and evolving personal spiritual orientations. This motion proposes replacing all references to God with the terms "Higher Power" or "Power Greater than ourselves." These substitutions would not resolve our dilemma since they still would not meet the needs of many members, particularly those who believe that the "Power greater than ourselves" in the Second Step is not equivalent to the "God, as we understood Him" in our Third Step. There have been numerous other alternatives suggested to the term "God." We feel that, prior to making a change which could profoundly impact our philosophy and interpretation of principles, significant discussion and agreement need to take place within the fellowship at large.

Both of these questions carry with them an additional consideration, since the word "God" and gender-specific language are used in our steps and traditions. We feel that any changes to our steps and traditions should not be considered in the same way we consider narrative portions of our literature. Once again, we feel that such changes and the possible ramifications of such changes need to have significant discussion and agreement prior to any implementation.

As a result of our discussions, it is the opinion of the World Service Board of Trustees that no formal action should be taken on this motion at this time. We do, however, believe that these topics should be widely discussed throughout the fellowship. We thank the conference for allowing us to serve.

SOURCE: http://web.na.org/?ID=bulletins-bull19
 
Ive never been to an AA or NA meeting but do they ALL consist of a lot of religious stuff? Is there any non religious alternative??
 
Ive never been to an AA or NA meeting but do they ALL consist of a lot of religious stuff? Is there any non religious alternative??

NA has NOTHING to do with religion. End of story.

I have heard of other programs such as Rational Recovery and SMART Recovery. I don't have any experience with these two but if they help people stay clean than... cool deal!

Rational Recovery
https://rational.org/index.php?id=1

SMART Recovery
http://www.smartrecovery.org/

I believe that Rational Recovery has a fee associated with it but am not certain of this.
 
Well without reading the thread I'll give my opinion about this being that I am an atheist and had to deal with this.

I went through a 12 step inpatient rehab and then AA/NA meetings once I got out.

The whole time in rehab I was having a hard time trying to listen to the 12 step bs because of how religious they are. I know how they try to say your higher power could be anything, but I simply do not believe in a higher power at all.

The owner of the rehab was doing a meeting one day and actually asked "Is anyone here Atheist?" I was the only one to raise my hand and he did seem to agree with me. He shouts "No your not!" And then goes on how A rant about how I can't just not believe in a higher power for some stupid reason or another I can't even remember what. His reasoning was that he tried to kill himself by co2 poisining and managed to live so it was god that saved him.

So I don't care what they say it is a very religious program and it just would not work for me because I would not give myself over to some super natural power I do not believe in. NA definietely wasn't about as AA, but if the 12-steps in general are just still faith based.
 
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Yeah man, fuck that bullshit. I'd love to see that dude prove "god" exsists, then I'd take stuff he said with any merit. Until then, just another delusional whacko.
 
I was so adverse to the God word I almost missed out on getting clean...I'm now over 2yrs clean...

Remain open minded and believe me you will feel connected to something greater than you in time.
 
Well without reading the thread I'll give my opinion about this being that I am an atheist and had to deal with this.

I went through a 12 step inpatient rehab and then AA/NA meetings once I got out.

The whole time in rehab I was having a hard time trying to listen to the 12 step bs because of how religious they are. I know how they try to say your higher power could be anything, but I simply do not believe in a higher power at all.

The owner of the rehab was doing a meeting one day and actually asked "Is anyone here Atheist?" I was the only one to raise my hand and he did seem to agree with me. He shouts "No your not!" And then goes on how A rant about how I can't just not believe in a higher power for some stupid reason or another I can't even remember what. His reasoning was that he tried to kill himself by co2 poisining and managed to live so it was god that saved him.

So I don't care what they say it is a very religious program and it just would not work for me because I would not give myself over to some super natural power I do not believe in. NA definietely wasn't about as AA, but if the 12-steps in general are just still faith based.

i totally agree that some people are just atheists and don't feel god. i respect that. but to say that you don't believe that there's a higher power than you? that's weird to me. so you are the greatest thing in your conception of existence? lol.

reminds me of when i was a kid and i thought i made up the entire world and people disappeared when they left my sight. is that what your world is like? a child's delusion?

j/k bro... i respect your post, just struck me as funny ;)
 
OverDone said:
NA has NOTHING to do with religion. End of story.
End of story because it is patently absurd to consider NA a religion? I don't think so. In fact if someone is considering NA I think it be best that they be prepared for an environment that many people are going to find to be quite religion oriented. I'm not saying this to reopen or further the perennial debate, but because people considering NA/AA as an option for themselves are likely to feel cheated if they are sold the imo false premise that AA/NA is not at all like religion. I'll repeat my assertion from post #48 under wraps, as to my thinking that AA/NA can not easily be called non-religious. I think most often when people assert that AA/NA is not religious they are actually saying it is not the rigid, uncomfortable religion they grew up with rather than saying AA/NA lacks any traits of a religion. If one is going to give the AA/NA way a try they ought be prepared for prayer, ritual, and lots of dialogue about spirituality. Selling any other way is dishonest imo and likely to lead to resentments and and perhaps additional reservations about trying different approaches to cope with their addictions.
NSFW:
[QUOTEMe from post #48] I think the party line that NA is spiritual but not a religion is a distinction without a difference. They have scripture. They have organized ritual. They have prayer. They have tenets. Meetings are filled with talk about spirituality & people there give a lot of spiritual advice and admonishments. An organization organized with a focus on spiritual things is a religion. Saying over and over that AA or NA is not a religion doesn't change the fact that it has more traits of a religion than many religions. If its important to folks to say this carbonated, sweetened beverage is not soda its just bubbly cola liquid I'll just have to say I guess you got me there. Sorry I misunderstood.[/QUOTE]
 
End of story because it is patently absurd to consider NA a religion? I don't think so. In fact if someone is considering NA I think it be best that they be prepared for an environment that many people are going to find to be quite religion oriented. I'm not saying this to reopen or further the perennial debate, but because people considering NA/AA as an option for themselves are likely to feel cheated if they are sold the imo false premise that AA/NA is not at all like religion. I'll repeat my assertion from post #48 under wraps, as to my thinking that AA/NA can not easily be called non-religious. I think most often when people assert that AA/NA is not religious they are actually saying it is not the rigid, uncomfortable religion they grew up with rather than saying AA/NA lacks any traits of a religion. If one is going to give the AA/NA way a try they ought be prepared for prayer, ritual, and lots of dialogue about spirituality. Selling any other way is dishonest imo and likely to lead to resentments and and perhaps additional reservations about trying different approaches to cope with their addictions.
NSFW:
[QUOTEMe from post #48] I think the party line that NA is spiritual but not a religion is a distinction without a difference. They have scripture. They have organized ritual. They have prayer. They have tenets. Meetings are filled with talk about spirituality & people there give a lot of spiritual advice and admonishments. An organization organized with a focus on spiritual things is a religion. Saying over and over that AA or NA is not a religion doesn't change the fact that it has more traits of a religion than many religions. If its important to folks to say this carbonated, sweetened beverage is not soda its just bubbly cola liquid I'll just have to say I guess you got me there. Sorry I misunderstood.
NSFW:


Nah, it isn't absurd to consider NA a religion. I think its a matter of verbiage. Many things in day-to-day life have 'traits' of religion, especially when a variety of individuals are placed in a group setting.

Prayer, for me, is simply concentrated thought or meditation generally focused on something positive.

Ritual, is simply a structured manner of doing something. Structure is necessary whenever a group of individuals comes together to achieve a common goal. Ritual also promotes unity among those of differing ages, races, sexual identities, economic status, religions, etc.

Spirituality or 'Spiritual Principles', more specifically (honesty, open-mindedness, willingness, tolerance, patience, humility, acceptance, faith, trust, commitment, courage, perseverance, compassion, love, forgiveness, self-discipline, integrity) can be called 'traits of good/decent character'. Why the term 'spiritual principles' is used? I really don't know.

These traits can be pursued, obtained, developed and practiced by anyone, regardless of affiliation/lack of affiliation with Allah, Jesus, Yahweh, Jah, Isis, Thor, Nature or even the Cookie Monster making the possibility of getting clean more all-inclusive and available to anyone.

Now, I had to look up the definition of 'scripture' as you referred to it in your post. The most all-encompassing definition I came across was:

A sacred writing or book; An authoritative statement
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scripture


According to the second part of this definition, than yes, there is scripture involved in the form of the literature

I also needed to look up the definition of the word 'tenet':

An opinion, belief, or principle held to be true by someone or especially an organization
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tenet


Yes, 12 Step programs do have 'tenets'.

Sorry so long but, for me, religion is a four letter word. Especially Jesus based religions. I'm not trying to promote 12 Step programs but I do feel compelled to defend misconceptions. Whatever process, group, individual endeavor or even religion that helps someone achieve a positive goal should be considered and pursued. Getting clean is a difficult thing to do. There are many tools to help achieve this goal. 12 Step programs are merely one of these tools available.
 
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